Poll: Love Or Hate Cesar Millan

[Guest quietstorm]

The speed of the walk can make a difference in how much energy is drained. Mine prefer a 3.5 mph walk (brisk pace) as opposed to a leisurely 1.5 mph stroll. The latter doesn't drain a bit of energy whereas the former does pretty well. Once the dog starts to fall behind you, then their energy is draining. If they're in front of you, pulling on the leash at the end of a walk, it wasn't strenuous enough (for them).

 

You have just GOT to meet Hogan! I have never, and I mean NEVER, had Hogan worn out to the point where he walks behind me. His hind legs are always in line with my legs - so he never walks 'beside' me, and definitely never walks behind me. He has never lagged behind after a long walk (heck - he goes hooked up to the bike and when I see them coming back home around the corner who do you think is in the lead?). We walk very fast - a quick trot for the greys, and Hogan's on leash manners are fantastic with his gentle leader on - it's definitely a mental challenge for him. But physically drain him - HA! We could walk for hours without his gentle leader off - he will still be pulling - on that I would bet the bank.

Edited January 20, 2010 by quietstorm

[Guest LindsaySF]

If your dog starts sniffing, and decides when to move on, it's because she's done sniffing that object, and is ready to move on. Really. It's not a secret plot to manipulate you.

But of course it is! Didn't you know that dogs are trying to take over the world? Going out the door first, one door at a time, sniffing what they want, slowly but surely...

 

Hmmm, looks like GretaDad is no longer a member here? I shall miss him dearly.

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

Well, hey, he could be onto something. I serve my dogs food twice a day, cater to their whims, give them more room on the bed than I have, and I pick up their poop. Maybe I've been had

[Guest Gemma]

If your dog starts sniffing, and decides when to move on to the next sniff spot, she is in control, not you. The jumping is just another way for her to exert control over you by telling you to hurry up, or notice me, or whatever. If her jumping is causing a certain behavior in you (or your husband), she is controlling your behavior, not the other way around.

 

Wow.

 

If your dog starts sniffing, and decides when to move on, it's because she's done sniffing that object, and is ready to move on. Really. It's not a secret plot to manipulate you. Dogs don't lie. They're very transparent. If your dog jumps on, it's because it's fun, or it works (to get him what he wants, or just provide sheer joy). If you make it incredibly unpleasant every time your dog jumps, or incredibly pleasant every time he does NOT jump, then... he'll stop jumping! It's simple behavior modification.

 

I'm glad someone said this.

 

Of course, if people are unhappy with their dogs forever stopping to sniff every little thing, it's easy to work around that. Just reward your dog when they walk beside you with a loose leash, and teach a command for when it's okay for them to sniff, AND when you want them to move on. Our boy is certainly not the best trained dog around (because I am lazy) but he knows when to move on and when to settle next to me. If I can do it with my haphazard training, anyone else can do it without adopting 'hard' methods that are based on faulty ideas of dominance.

[Figma]

Some of his methods I think are good and some not so good BUT when watching his shows, I think people have to take into consideration the breed of dog being worked with and the dog experience of the people that need to train the dog.

[Guest jacksonhunter31]

I love this thread--so funny..Greytalk is absolutely loaded with folks who have built their lives around their dogs and have given up their homes to become dog habitats that happen to have humans living nearby. And that's fine, if someone wants to give up their couch and their bed to their dogs, up to them--does nothing to me. Then occasionally a devotee of Milan happens on to the board and is completely outraged by the fact that these dogs have "taken over" the homes of other posters and feels the need to sanctimoniously reprimand them. Then the entire GT community explodes with righteous anger at the Milan devotee.. I'm new to greytalk and have learned a great deal here--but really folks--moderation in all things.. (Just sayin')

[kudzu]

Jackson, it is a touchy subject for many because Millan has managed to bring back dominance & correction based training to the masses just as it was started to die out. It is really sad. It isn't that everything Millan says is wrong. The average suburban America dog does not get enough exercise. Many people do no training or are inconsistent with it. Love alone will not make a happy life for a dog. Wait, let me take that back. I believe love alone can make them happy but I include training as part of showing my love. So let me rephrase, just showing affection won't make your dog happy.

 

My biggest problem with Millan's training techniques is that it relies too much on correction & tries to make everyone think that dogs are waiting to take over the world. And then there is the fact that he really does not seem to understand dog behavior enough to prevent dangerous circumstances. All I can think is that he intentionally tries to set up dangerous situations so he can "correct" the dog because he only seems to be able to train through correction. It is just too limiting & can do such horrible damage. A good behaviorist would carefully evaluate a dog taking pains to prevent the dogs from going over threshold. Millan seems to set things up in ways that the dog is guaranteed to be pushed to the brink, then he intentionally tips the dog over the edge. Sorry, but that is just cruel & leads to terrible circumstances such as this. Millan kicks a dog into attacking. (Be patient. It can take a while to load.) What Millan did is what I might have expected from an inept owner not someone who calls himself a behaviorist. Sadly what he ultimately did is a technique called "hanging". It is an old technique & a really horrible one. The dog in the video ends up on the ground suffering from hypoxia. If you look closely you can see that the dogs tongue had turned blue. It had nothing to do with submitting to Millan's dominance & everything to do with a dog trying to recover from near asphyxiation. The dog could have done a lot of damage to Millan. Instead he only left scratches. One day, Millan isn't going to be so lucky.

 

My dog going out the door first is just my dog wanting to get to the other side of the doorway. Since I find dogs rushing out of doorways at the minimum annoying & downright dangerous in some situations my dogs get rewarded for waiting. What is their reward? They get to go out the door, whether it is before or after me is of no importance to my leadership standing. I control the doorway. I say who goes in or out & if I choose I can also control what order that is. This does not require correction or leashes or e-collars or poking or Ehh'ing or Pssst'ing. All it requires is not opening the door until the dog waits. Very simple, very easy, very rewarding for the dog when that door opens & they are allowed to go through.

 

Yep, it's funny. I am just a bundle of laughs when it comes to this subject.

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

I could not agree more with you, K, and I said the same thing about doorways in my post a couple above this one. CM sucks because he makes people think dogs are out to get us.

 

BTW Jack my dogs haven't taken over my bed. I want them there.

[dobelvr]

^{I love Cesar and watch his shows regularly. I also watch and like Victoria Stillwell and DogTown . There is no such thing as one size fits all. My dogs go out the door in whatever order I choose and sleep on the furniture. This isn't a problem since all of my dogs know who is in charge.  Animal psychology just like  human psychology has many schools of thought and is always changing. I hope to remain open minded enough to benefit.}

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

I'm not in charge of my dogs feelings, emotions, thoughts, and desires, though I am in control of their actions as it is my duty to keep them safe. We are partners and we all have boundaries established with each other.

Edited February 1, 2010 by FastDogsOwnMe

[Guest grtgreys]

He seems to have success - if that is what it is - with dogs that have major issues.... I do agree that you have to train people....I prefer Victoria over Cesar

[arandomchic]

I like some of Cesar's concepts, like "Exercise, Discipline and Affection". FYI - for those thinking discipline means physical correction, in his books he states repeatedly it's about rules, boundaries and expectations. I like that he talks about he trains humans, because I do think the majority of behavior issues in pets are due to us humans. I like that he reminds us that dogs have dog needs, not human needs. I like that he wants owners to be confident and consistent with their pets.

 

I think the show tends to be more about entertainment. I enjoy watching it and am in awe of his talent and his connection with dogs. But like just about anything, I can take what I use from his training tips and pair them with other training methods to find what works best for my own pets.

[Guest Drumhellergrey]

I like him. Of course not all of his methods will work with Greyhounds, but his "Calm Assertive Energy" theory definitely works in keeping a sight hound focused.

[FiveRoooooers]

Jackson, it is a touchy subject for many because Millan has managed to bring back dominance & correction based training to the masses just as it was started to die out. It is really sad. It isn't that everything Millan says is wrong. The average suburban America dog does not get enough exercise. Many people do no training or are inconsistent with it. Love alone will not make a happy life for a dog. Wait, let me take that back. I believe love alone can make them happy but I include training as part of showing my love. So let me rephrase, just showing affection won't make your dog happy.

 

My biggest problem with Millan's training techniques is that it relies too much on correction & tries to make everyone think that dogs are waiting to take over the world. And then there is the fact that he really does not seem to understand dog behavior enough to prevent dangerous circumstances. All I can think is that he intentionally tries to set up dangerous situations so he can "correct" the dog because he only seems to be able to train through correction. It is just too limiting & can do such horrible damage. A good behaviorist would carefully evaluate a dog taking pains to prevent the dogs from going over threshold. Millan seems to set things up in ways that the dog is guaranteed to be pushed to the brink, then he intentionally tips the dog over the edge. Sorry, but that is just cruel & leads to terrible circumstances such as this. Millan kicks a dog into attacking. (Be patient. It can take a while to load.) What Millan did is what I might have expected from an inept owner not someone who calls himself a behaviorist. Sadly what he ultimately did is a technique called "hanging". It is an old technique & a really horrible one. The dog in the video ends up on the ground suffering from hypoxia. If you look closely you can see that the dogs tongue had turned blue. It had nothing to do with submitting to Millan's dominance & everything to do with a dog trying to recover from near asphyxiation. The dog could have done a lot of damage to Millan. Instead he only left scratches. One day, Millan isn't going to be so lucky.

 

My dog going out the door first is just my dog wanting to get to the other side of the doorway. Since I find dogs rushing out of doorways at the minimum annoying & downright dangerous in some situations my dogs get rewarded for waiting. What is their reward? They get to go out the door, whether it is before or after me is of no importance to my leadership standing. I control the doorway. I say who goes in or out & if I choose I can also control what order that is. This does not require correction or leashes or e-collars or poking or Ehh'ing or Pssst'ing. All it requires is not opening the door until the dog waits. Very simple, very easy, very rewarding for the dog when that door opens & they are allowed to go through.

 

Yep, it's funny. I am just a bundle of laughs when it comes to this subject.

 

No, you are spot on. Very well put.

[Guest LindsaySF]

Just when I think this guy can't get any more dangerous or insane, he does. Jesus. Cesar kicks the dog in the leg to set him off, and when the dog starts freaking out he starts choking him!! The Malamute was already walking calmly beside the Border Collie, but Cesar kicked him to get him riled up so he could correct him for it.

 

http://www.facebook....v=1377635676870

 

I suppose this "training method" is a success, if the goal is to get the dog to bite its handler and the leash because it's being choked to death....

 

Cesar claims that, "This is what they do among each other." Really? Dogs take leashes and choke each other out?

 

Cesar even says that the Border Collie has its tail between its legs because it senses the Malamute's "negative energy". Uhhh, no, the poor dog is afraid he will be strangled next!!

 

 

If I saw a person in my neighborhood doing to their dog what Cesar did to this one I would call the police and animal control to report animal abuse. Why is Cesar not only allowed to act this way, but they tape it and put it on TV?!!

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[Guest littermates]

Ok for Pittts, but not for abused, rescued Greys.

 

 

 

Littermates

Jake & Spirit

[jenn8]

5..4..3..2..1...

[Guest Drumhellergrey]

Just when I think this guy can't get any more dangerous or insane, he does. Jesus. Cesar kicks the dog in the leg to set him off, and when the dog starts freaking out he starts choking him!! The Malamute was already walking calmly beside the Border Collie, but Cesar kicked him to get him riled up so he could correct him for it.

 

http://www.facebook....v=1377635676870

 

I suppose this "training method" is a success, if the goal is to get the dog to bite its handler and the leash because it's being choked to death....

 

Cesar claims that, "This is what they do among each other." Really? Dogs take leashes and choke each other out?

 

Cesar even says that the Border Collie has its tail between its legs because it senses the Malamute's "negative energy". Uhhh, no, the poor dog is afraid he will be strangled next!!

 

 

If I saw a person in my neighborhood doing to their dog what Cesar did to this one I would call the police and animal control to report animal abuse. Why is Cesar not only allowed to act this way, but they tape it and put it on TV?!!

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

I guess all of the anti-Cesar people will mistakenly see what ever they want in this video. What I see, is him redirecting the dogs attention, as it is focusing on the other dog. The dog protests and he lifts up on the dogs looped lead, to calm his aggression. The dogs tongue is not turning blue, and he is not hurting or abusing this animal what so ever. He is not, I repeat, NOT strangling this dog. He has the loop high on the dogs neck. I shake my head, and MY BLOOD BOILS when ever I see people claiming that Cesar routinely abuses dogs on National Television.

 

I do not see the SPCA wanting to shut down the Program. It is the ill-informed people, who let their dogs continue to nip and become aggressive when meeting other dogs.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Drumhellergrey

[Guest Drumhellergrey]

Now ask me if I'd try to do this move on a greyhound. No, for two reasons. 1: A greyhounds neck could be injured. 2: Any greyhound that I have ever met is not aggressive towards other dogs, the way a Malamute may be.

 

I still stand behind Cesars methods. While they may not work, or be appropriate, to use on greyhounds, he still does great work in educating us humans about our dogs.

 

I just hate to see others bashing him to the extent that they do. We all want what is best for our much loved pets. We just seem to go about it in different ways.

 

I understand how some people may see what he does as inappropriate, and I will also respect their opinions. I just want to see the bashing of another person, less prominent.

 

There is a big difference between a Malamute and a Greyhound and I believe most, if not all will be smart enough to distinguish that.

 

PEOPLE DON'T HANG YOUR GREYHOUNDS ...it didn't need to be said, but then neither did half of what I have read in this thread.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Drumhellergrey

[Guest kydie]

I love this thread, it has been around for months, and months, I read all the posts, and find most very funny, As Mailn has both good and not so good ideas, I do agree with 1) most dogs DO NOT get enough exercise,although I am 58 years old, and roller blades will never touch my feet, and 2) most people are not consistant with discipline, and gee if dogs did take over the world, as suggested, Cesar thinks may happen, can't be any worse than it is right now!

Edited April 21, 2010 by kydie

[Guest duckbilled]

I like Casar and SOME of his ideas work on my Grey. Frankly, I don't think there are a lot of Greys with the issues he deals with on tv.

 

The one thing that annoys us is he always refers to certain dogs as Greyhounds but by looking at them it is easy to tell they are a mix. He had one in his pack that he always said was a Greyhound but it was clearly a mix with a Lab or something similar.

 

On one episode, he actually met someone with a bunch of Greyhounds and he actually seemed shocked to see so many pointy noses coming at him. It was a little funny - like he never saw a bunch of Greyhounds before.

[Guest KennelMom]

The one thing that annoys us is he always refers to certain dogs as Greyhounds but by looking at them it is easy to tell they are a mix. He had one in his pack that he always said was a Greyhound but it was clearly a mix with a Lab or something similar.

 

That was Curly He was originally owned by a guy in NY and surrendered to Cesar. Curly was eventually adopted by one of the crew members though I still see him hanging out in some episodes.

 

ps. he wasn't hanging or strangling the malamute. He was keeping tension on the lead...the dog was doing the movement, Cesar was reacting to it, moving as necessary to keep the tension he wanted. What the clip does show is when something isn't working, re-evaluate and try something else. In this case, ditching the prong collar that had developed such a negative reaction in the dog long before Cesar arrived. The aggression coming from the malamute towards the handler and leash had been trained in and reinforced by his owners over a long period of time...dog had major issues, the likes of which we don't typically see in greyhounds....at least until they've been in a pet home for a while.

[Guest kydie]

i love this thread it comes around every once in awhile I agree with a lot of things CM says, not all, but a lot, I agree with the lack of exercise for most dogs,is a problem and I agree with "the walk" as it really is a bonding experience, I agree with people thinking dogs are people in fur coats, and they are not! They are dogs, and like to be dogs, (especially in my house) I agree with being quiet when dealing with an unrulely dog, I agree with "no touch, no talk, no eye contact" when managing a nervous dog.I agree with an animal moving forward. I do agree with owners being patient, and taking time to over come issues. I do have a problem with the submissive position especially with a nervous or angry dog. I don't care who on here agrees or not he must be doing something right he is a RICH, RICH, man

[sarabz]

I enjoy reading this thread because there are so many varying points of view. Is there a right answer? No, no more than there is an exact right answer on what all of our dogs should eat.

 

If you are living happily with your dogs and they are not terrorizing you or anyone you live with, near, or anyone you encounter, then IMO your methods are working. (Yes, somewhat simplistic, but hopefully you get my point).

 

Does Bella get on the sofa and our bed? Yep. But she also understands “off” when we need her to get down. She hasn’t taken over – she’s only taken exactly what we’ve given her.

 

Does she growl at us occasionally? Yep. But that’s the only way she has of showing us what her boundaries are – how else is she gonna do it? For example, she growled and snapped at my foot last night when she was on our bed before DH and I went to sleep. Guess what – she was sound asleep and I accidentally put my feet on her. Startled her in what she thinks of as her space (because it is hers during the day). Solution? She gets off the bed. I don’t punish her, I just calmly say “off”, she goes to her crate and issue is resolved. Is she an aggressive dog that needs to be strongly corrected? No. This is the only time/place she occasionally snaps & growls – never when she’s on the sofa, her dog beds or anywhere else. We never reach into her crate with her there – that is definitely her space.

 

To paraphrase FastDogsOwnMe, we each have our boundaries. It is up to both of us to respect the other – I’m not interested in completely dominating my dog, my horse or any other animal. I use my judgment to take care of them, and that includes training of basic commands such as “off” and “wait” (for doors, to cross a street, food, etc). I don’t use “wait” to dominate - I use it for my safety and hers. Don’t ever think I’m not the alpha and that if it came to a confrontation, I’m definitely in charge, but I don’t need to use harsh methods to have established that – teaching “wait” patiently has gotten the point across.

 

Ok, off my soapbox now

[Guest KennelMom]

+1 sarabz!

Edited June 15, 2010 by KennelMom