Poll: Love Or Hate Cesar Millan

[Guest GretaDad]

Yes, and here in lies the rub.

For those who watch CM and do not actually know what they are doing, think that they now know how.

 

There are countless television programs that show experiments, stunts, pranks, etc.; each with the warning, "Don't try this at home!" yet shows like America's Funniest Home Videos and websites like YouTube continually get new material.

 

Do you think it's because of the shows on TV or people's lack of common sense that we are bombarded with a constant stream of "stupid human tricks"?

 

[Guest auforygirl]

oooo can we make that a poll because I am definitely going with option B... lack of common sense

[Guest Mom2Shiloh]

I have 4 word files full of collected opinions, referrences, published articles that I've saved over the years. I will send them to anyone willing to have an open mind and take the time to read them. I will ask that you wait until Wednesday to ask for the material -- because I am saying goodbye to my best friend, who is an American Pitbull Terrier, tomorrow and I won't be up to responding. Or if you write before that, just be forwarned that I won't respond till Wednesday.

 

However... the poll was, in my opinion, less than adequately framed. I don't HATE him, because that wouldn't be good for me or my dogs or the universe. I Despise him, however, with an ongoing passion. Hence my collection of anti-Milan material.

 

Ironically, I do agree with him on hating dogfighting and dogfighters. Beyond that... I think he does far more harm than good. Read and think.

[jetcitywoman]

My husband actually confirmed that the alpha roll doesn't work on Capri. Before you get upset, he tried it very gently, not angrily or yelling or anything. We're both sensitive people who pick up quickly on animal body language and he saw right away that it wasn't working. Capri gets excited and jumps on him when he comes home from work. Turning his back to shun her didn't work, she jumped on his back. So he tried putting his hand on her shoulder and pushing her firmly but gently to the ground. It just made her even more anxious and antsy. So now he's trying a combination of shunning and making high-pitched yelping noises.

[Guest Judynyc]

My husband actually confirmed that the alpha roll doesn't work on Capri. Before you get upset, he tried it very gently, not angrily or yelling or anything. We're both sensitive people who pick up quickly on animal body language and he saw right away that it wasn't working. Capri gets excited and jumps on him when he comes home from work. Turning his back to shun her didn't work, she jumped on his back. So he tried putting his hand on her shoulder and pushing her firmly but gently to the ground. It just made her even more anxious and antsy. So now he's trying a combination of shunning and making high-pitched yelping noises.

A trainer I know told us that one idea would be to leave some little treats in a bowl by the door so that when your DH comes homes, he takes a few treats from the bowl and throws them out onto the floor so that Capri is distracted by them. Then after she goes to find them and calms down a bit, he can greet her more quietly.

 

Another thing to do is teach her to sit, I know its hard, or do a "down"...but don't wait to do it when he comes home from work, train when she is calm and can be taught,....he should be able to tell her to "down" and "stay" when he comes in so that it gives her something else to do besides jump all over him.

[jetcitywoman]

A trainer I know told us that one idea would be to leave some little treats in a bowl by the door so that when your DH comes homes, he takes a few treats from the bowl and throws them out onto the floor so that Capri is distracted by them. Then after she goes to find them and calms down a bit, he can greet her more quietly.

 

Another thing to do is teach her to sit, I know its hard, or do a "down"...but don't wait to do it when he comes home from work, train when she is calm and can be taught,....he should be able to tell her to "down" and "stay" when he comes in so that it gives her something else to do besides jump all over him.

 

Oh, very clever about the treat bowl. I'll keep that in mind. We actually hired a trainer, starting this weekend to help us learn basic obedience. We've been doing some on our own but having trouble learning verbal commands. I have read that a really good way to stop a bad behavior is to replace it with a good behavior which is what your second suggestion is. So when the trainer helps us learn to 'sit stay' on command we'll do that when we walk in the door. I can tell she wants to be good - something about the look in her eyes - but she's too excited/happy to control herself. I'm sure these ideas will help a lot!

[Guest GretaDad]

Another way to think of what you've heard is to either ignore or correct the undesirable behavior, and reward the desired behavior.

 

Mine get excited when I come home. Really, it's not so much excitement or happiness as a build up of energy from sleeping all day. If mine aren't too out of hand, I will ignore them until they lie down. Once they're down, I will go to them, but not give affection until they're in the calm, submissive state of mind. Once they're calm, I give affection, but only as long as they remain calm. If they get too excited, then affection is withdrawn.

 

If they're too energetic, I may need to give a correction, which usually consists of a "hey!" and a snap of my fingers. Then it's back to ignoring them until they're calm.

 

jetcitywoman:

 

How much do you exercise your dogs before you leave for the day? It's not surprising that rolling your dog didn't work. What most dogs want most after being apart from their owners is attention; any type of attention. CM recommends no touch, no talk, and no eye contact for at least 10 minutes after coming home. After this calming period, it's out to take the dog for a walk. Only after the walk would the dog be given affection.

 

CM has used his APBT Daddy to demonstrate to many clients when to ignore and when to correct a behavior, but it always starts with ignoring the behavior. It sounds like trying to force the dog down is only intensifying the dog's energy.

[Guest Judynyc]

A trainer I know told us that one idea would be to leave some little treats in a bowl by the door so that when your DH comes homes, he takes a few treats from the bowl and throws them out onto the floor so that Capri is distracted by them. Then after she goes to find them and calms down a bit, he can greet her more quietly.

 

Another thing to do is teach her to sit, I know its hard, or do a "down"...but don't wait to do it when he comes home from work, train when she is calm and can be taught,....he should be able to tell her to "down" and "stay" when he comes in so that it gives her something else to do besides jump all over him.

 

Oh, very clever about the treat bowl. I'll keep that in mind. We actually hired a trainer, starting this weekend to help us learn basic obedience. We've been doing some on our own but having trouble learning verbal commands. I have read that a really good way to stop a bad behavior is to replace it with a good behavior which is what your second suggestion is. So when the trainer helps us learn to 'sit stay' on command we'll do that when we walk in the door. I can tell she wants to be good - something about the look in her eyes - but she's too excited/happy to control herself. I'm sure these ideas will help a lot!

Good liuck with the "sit" its easier for them to do "down ....stay" But your trainer will figure that our quick if he/she is any good.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Judynyc

[jetcitywoman]

Good liuck with the "sit" its easier for them to do "down ....stay" But your trainer will figure that our quick if he/she is any good.

 

Ha, actually Capri is a very good "sitter"! We've got her to reliably sit for her meals, without a verbal command. But I still say "sit" every time she does it. This morning she surprised me by sitting on command (for the first time I think) in order to get her good-bye Kong. And this is the proper sit, from standing position drop the butt down. She also does a sit that I taught her starting in the sphynx position but she thinks this is a different behavior. We'll straighten that out with the trainer.

 

To the other poster, she gets excited when greeting my husband more than me. I've been the one who walks her every day for the last few weeks, so we're pretty well bonded. I'm not sure what she thinks of him, it's not so much dominance but definitely a different dynamic. I'll take her on a long walk and if he comes home while we're out, she will still sometimes pounce on him when we get home. So it's not just pent-up energy either. We'll figure it out. He's not alpha-rolling her anymore anyway because he saw right away that it didn't work. (Ignoring her just gets him kidney-punches.)

[Guest Judynyc]

Good liuck with the "sit" its easier for them to do "down ....stay" But your trainer will figure that our quick if he/she is any good.

 

Ha, actually Capri is a very good "sitter"! We've got her to reliably sit for her meals, without a verbal command. But I still say "sit" every time she does it. This morning she surprised me by sitting on command (for the first time I think) in order to get her good-bye Kong. And this is the proper sit, from standing position drop the butt down. She also does a sit that I taught her starting in the sphynx position but she thinks this is a different behavior. We'll straighten that out with the trainer.

 

To the other poster, she gets excited when greeting my husband more than me. I've been the one who walks her every day for the last few weeks, so we're pretty well bonded. I'm not sure what she thinks of him, it's not so much dominance but definitely a different dynamic. I'll take her on a long walk and if he comes home while we're out, she will still sometimes pounce on him when we get home. So it's not just pent-up energy either. We'll figure it out. He's not alpha-rolling her anymore anyway because he saw right away that it didn't work. (Ignoring her just gets him kidney-punches.)

Good for you on getting a good sit from her!! I'm still working on Leyla's sit...slowly but surely, we'll get there.

 

As far as your DH and Capri's reactions to him....Have you thought about the fact that he is an intact male and that maybe she likes the way he smells better than you...another female?

I've actually see this quite often...female dogs going bonkers over a male human more than a female human.

[jetcitywoman]

Good for you on getting a good sit from her!! I'm still working on Leyla's sit...slowly but surely, we'll get there.

 

As far as your DH and Capri's reactions to him....Have you thought about the fact that he is an intact male and that maybe she likes the way he smells better than you...another female?

I've actually see this quite often...female dogs going bonkers over a male human more than a female human.

 

Yeah, I figured it was something about the gender. Our cat loves him more too, but she's always had a "thing" for men.

 

Anyway, I don't feel jealous or anything. It doesn't feel like Capri likes him more than me, or the other way around. It's just different. I have a calmer energy than he does, I think is part of it. When she does get pent-up and I'm the first one home and she jumps on me, she tries VERY hard to correct herself - to the extent of throwing herself on the floor. But she just can't put out the fire in her eyes, so I appreciate her effort. She's my baby girl.

[Guest GretaDad]

You can't let a dog touch you (or your husband) without correcting the behavior. It only gets worse. Also, your correction must be at the same or higher level to what the dog is exhibiting. If for example, your dog's energy is at a level 7 (on a scale of 1-10), and you correct with a level 3 energy, the dog won't correct the behavior because you won't get past their excitement.

 

Also, how the dog is walked can make a huge difference in their energy level. Are you (and/or your husband) practicing the controlled walk; more commonly known as heeling? This is a great mental exercise for the dog, which can also help tire the dog out. The speed of the walk can make a difference in how much energy is drained. Mine prefer a 3.5 mph walk (brisk pace) as opposed to a leisurely 1.5 mph stroll. The latter doesn't drain a bit of energy whereas the former does pretty well. Once the dog starts to fall behind you, then their energy is draining. If they're in front of you, pulling on the leash at the end of a walk, it wasn't strenuous enough (for them).

 

Are you and your husband in agreement as to what behavior should be corrected and how? Dogs can definitely behave one way for one person, and completely different for another, which sounds like what's happening in your case.

 

 

[jetcitywoman]

BTW, and probably off topic, but...

 

Does anybody else have dogs that when they want something start randomly trying all the tricks they know? The instant I have a treat or Kong in hand, if I don't give it to her immediately, Capri starts trying all of her known behaviors that have worked in the past. She runs through them so fast, though, that if she coincidentally hits on the one I wanted her to do, she's on to something else before I can give her the treat. I have to be extremely careful not to let her get frustrated because she'll try everything once... maybe twice and if they don't work, she stops. But it also makes me think that she's got a career as a performer!

 

One in particular she's got me thinking about... not anything I've taught her... if I try to hold the kong over her head so she can't have it, because I'm just not ready to give it to her yet, she will rear up on hind legs like a performing horse. I'm tempted to train this into an actual trick because she does it so well. She'll stay reared up for 2 or 3 seconds all on her own. Maybe I can get her to turn in a circle on her hind legs?

 

Or, at the very least, she's got a career in Agility, I think.

 

 

[jetcitywoman]

You can't let a dog touch you (or your husband) without correcting the behavior. It only gets worse. Also, your correction must be at the same or higher level to what the dog is exhibiting. If for example, your dog's energy is at a level 7 (on a scale of 1-10), and you correct with a level 3 energy, the dog won't correct the behavior because you won't get past their excitement.

 

Also, how the dog is walked can make a huge difference in their energy level. Are you (and/or your husband) practicing the controlled walk; more commonly known as heeling? This is a great mental exercise for the dog, which can also help tire the dog out. The speed of the walk can make a difference in how much energy is drained. Mine prefer a 3.5 mph walk (brisk pace) as opposed to a leisurely 1.5 mph stroll. The latter doesn't drain a bit of energy whereas the former does pretty well. Once the dog starts to fall behind you, then their energy is draining. If they're in front of you, pulling on the leash at the end of a walk, it wasn't strenuous enough (for them).

 

Are you and your husband in agreement as to what behavior should be corrected and how? Dogs can definitely behave one way for one person, and completely different for another, which sounds like what's happening in your case.

 

Oops, I almost missed this post, and I'm glad I didn't because it's a good one.

 

I walk her leisurely and let her sniff around almost as much as she wants. She's well-trained on the leash though, and rarely pulls me, and I do try to reinforce that by correcting her on the rare times she does pull. But I know I could control her more, also. I really only do a controlled walk when crossing a road, going near another dog or children, and when on the bike trail. I do variable-length walks depending on the weather and how energetic we both feel, but I always do two or three walks every day. My goal isn't just potty or to wear her out, so much as to keep her days interesting with morning, lunchtime and evening walks. It's a nice break for me, too.

 

DH and I are on the same page with training and behavior, no problem there. We make suggestions to each other when something doesn't seem to be working, as in this case. We'll address this first thing with the face-to-face session with the trainer on Saturday, but I also hope to get him back to walking her sometimes. He hurt his foot and hasn't been able to walk with her. I'm sure that has some effect on the relationship, although it's not clear what. (Since she's neither clearly dominant nor submissive, it's hard to tell.)

 

[jenn8]

My goal isn't just potty or to wear her out, so much as to keep her days interesting with morning, lunchtime and evening walks. It's a nice break for me, too.

 

Yep.

 

Jenn

 

[Guest GretaDad]

Thanks for the info (and kind words). If your dog starts sniffing, and decides when to move on to the next sniff spot, she is in control, not you. The jumping is just another way for her to exert control over you by telling you to hurry up, or notice me, or whatever. If her jumping is causing a certain behavior in you (or your husband), she is controlling your behavior, not the other way around.

 

One suggestion I've heard is to give the dog a controlled walk for 3/4 of the time out, then 1/4 of the time, reward the good behavior with sniffing time. The walk itself is a reward to a dog, and one that really helps them bond to their owner and other dogs in their pack.

 

I used to let Greta do the sniff/pee/move on during walks (along with feeding her prior to the walk) which made our walks a frustrating exercise of walking, then rushing to the next pee spot, then relaxation and then the behavior would repeat itself many times during the walk. Once I modified my approach to the walk by controlling when and where she was rewarded with sniff time, her leash manners became much more consistent and the walk more enjoyable. There were other issues going on such as her getting excited and jumping and hitting my back while getting her leashed which didn't help the situation much.

 

After I changed my approach to the walk, it was like walking completely different dogs. I can walk them using only two fingers or by our usual method of looping their leashes in my belt loops for an easy hands free walk. Another benefit of the controlled walk is that it trains the dogs to not react to outside stimulus, such as barking dogs, cars, trucks, buses, jack hammers, etc. To them, noises are just noises to be ignored.

[Guest auforygirl]

Pretty Girl does the let me try everything because you have a treat... I notice it happens more with clicker training when you start molding a new behavior you are basically waiting for them to start doing the behavior or at least close to it and clicking so at the beginning of teaching a new trick they are really trying to figure out how to get the treat out of your hand. And they know what has worked in the past...

[Guest Pat2003]

Pretty Girl does the let me try everything because you have a treat... I notice it happens more with clicker training when you start molding a new behavior you are basically waiting for them to start doing the behavior or at least close to it and clicking so at the beginning of teaching a new trick they are really trying to figure out how to get the treat out of your hand. And they know what has worked in the past...

 

Any dog who has been trained with "clicker training" should do this when learning a new command, just as auforygirl stated. If they don't do this then they haven't really learned what the clicker is all about.

[Guest Ashley]

BTW, and probably off topic, but...

 

Does anybody else have dogs that when they want something start randomly trying all the tricks they know? The instant I have a treat or Kong in hand, if I don't give it to her immediately, Capri starts trying all of her known behaviors that have worked in the past. She runs through them so fast, though, that if she coincidentally hits on the one I wanted her to do, she's on to something else before I can give her the treat. I have to be extremely careful not to let her get frustrated because she'll try everything once... maybe twice and if they don't work, she stops. But it also makes me think that she's got a career as a performer!

 

One in particular she's got me thinking about... not anything I've taught her... if I try to hold the kong over her head so she can't have it, because I'm just not ready to give it to her yet, she will rear up on hind legs like a performing horse. I'm tempted to train this into an actual trick because she does it so well. She'll stay reared up for 2 or 3 seconds all on her own. Maybe I can get her to turn in a circle on her hind legs?

 

Or, at the very least, she's got a career in Agility, I think.

 

That's definitely our Sadie!

 

I enjoy watching his show, as well as Brad Pattison's show. I take it with a grain of salt, but he does have some good ideas and things to say

[kudzu]

If you think Cesar Milan's dominance theory method of training is great, you should probably do a lot more studying of dog behavior. You will find that he is actually not whispering but indeed screaming at the dogs with body language & dominance. Watch the dogs on his show. Really look at their face, their posture, their behavior. Most are not calm & submissive, they are scared. This does not mean that everything he does is wrong. But his methods are based on a theory that has been proven wrong over & over again. For me, I will choose Victoria Stillwell over Cesar Milan every time.

 

Vets, behaviorists & trainers are all having to deal with the fallout from Cesar's celebrity status causing a resurgence of dominance based training. Try reading the links below. Think the whole thing through. Watch his show again. Then come to your own conclusions.

 

More on dog behavior & dominance theory from scientists & behavior experts:

Using 'Dominance' To Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat

 

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior has had to issue the following position statements:

Dominance Position Statement "Position Statement on the Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals"

Punishment Position Statement - "The Use of Punishment for Behavior Modification in Animals"

[Guest my3greys]

I agree with his idea that dogs pick up on our own emotions. I also agree that we should treat dogs like dogs and not our children; HOWEVER, that only applys to OTHER dogs and NOT my Cinnibuns. :lol

 

I like the way you think! I agree,,,

[beledi]

Ian Dunbar is the man. Jean Dunbar is the woman!

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

NOT a fan, and it absolutely SHOCKS me that GREYHOUND people would be. But, I think a lot of Greyhound people came into the breed out of desire to adopt. Those of us who came into them out of a long history and love of sighthounds in general, may be more prone to use methods that better suit sighthounds (well, ALL dogs for that matter!). I am definitely firm when I need to be, but I UNDERSTAND dogs, so I know dominance is bunk. It's pretty ridiculous to me that people think eating before your dog or make him walk out the door behind you makes him know that you're the boss. Dogs don't run out doors because they dominate us. They run out doors because it gets them to the desired thing (a walk, etc) faster than walking out the door would

 

That said, if people can follow some of his common sense advice (ie, exercise!) and it helps dogs stay with their owners, then great. But check out this http://www.neversaynevergreyhounds.net/ and then show me your dock diving, retrieving, UD and MACH Greyhound trained with the "my dog should listen to me because I'm a person and he's a dog!" mindset. How about mutual respect, because on planet Dog, we're equals, and dogs don't work for free any more than people do. Dogs are selfish, greedy, and live for the moment. So what? I love them because of the way they are, not in spite of it. We're not that different. Dogs just don't try to hide it

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

If your dog starts sniffing, and decides when to move on to the next sniff spot, she is in control, not you. The jumping is just another way for her to exert control over you by telling you to hurry up, or notice me, or whatever. If her jumping is causing a certain behavior in you (or your husband), she is controlling your behavior, not the other way around.

 

Wow.

 

If your dog starts sniffing, and decides when to move on, it's because she's done sniffing that object, and is ready to move on. Really. It's not a secret plot to manipulate you. Dogs don't lie. They're very transparent. If your dog jumps on, it's because it's fun, or it works (to get him what he wants, or just provide sheer joy). If you make it incredibly unpleasant every time your dog jumps, or incredibly pleasant every time he does NOT jump, then... he'll stop jumping! It's simple behavior modification.

 

It works in any creature that eats. I have "flicker" (light) trained my FISH to perform behaviors. Really stupid fish, too- not just smart Oscars and so forth. Do you think your cat controls you because she doesn't do what you want? Your cat just doesn't care, because you don't make it worth her while to care. It's really easy to teach a cat a multitude of behaviors with a clicker.

[kickchick2000]

I think Cesar's methods have their place but they are not right for all dogs I've used some of his ideas on our bulldog but Milky Way would be terrified if we used them with him.