Poll: Love Or Hate Cesar Millan

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

I was at the dog park the other day. Some guy was telling another lady with a GSD puppy that she has to "make sure he knows who is the boss right away" and "dominance, dominance, dominance" and even telling her to alpha roll the puppy. I'm sad that this ignorance is still rampant in the pet owner world. I'm not often exposed to it among serious dog fanciers. It really upset me. I politely said I don't believe in dominance theory, suggest Jean Donaldson's book, and pointed out that I had perfect control of six "untrainable" sighthounds none of whom I'd EVER used such methods with, but they were not interested. That poor 8 week old puppy

[Guest Mom2Shiloh]

I was at the dog park the other day. Some guy was telling another lady with a GSD puppy that she has to "make sure he knows who is the boss right away" and "dominance, dominance, dominance" and even telling her to alpha roll the puppy. I'm sad that this ignorance is still rampant in the pet owner world. I'm not often exposed to it among serious dog fanciers. It really upset me. I politely said I don't believe in dominance theory, suggest Jean Donaldson's book, and pointed out that I had perfect control of six "untrainable" sighthounds none of whom I'd EVER used such methods with, but they were not interested. That poor 8 week old puppy

 

Theses ideas are sending dog training back into the dark ages. So many reputable folks in training are trying to debunk and refute this menace but I'm afraid they are only being heard in academic & professional circles. Very hard to get a money maker off the air and that is what needs to happen to stop this retrograde tsunami of misinformation.

 

I agree .. poor poor puppy.

[kudzu]

The question is, are his training methods good for the breed of Greyhounds. Greys have a distinctive behavior and have had a very rigorous and methodical proffessional training history since they were babies.

No, I respectfully disagree. The question is, are these methods appropriate for any breed when there are less aversive, more effective & more importantly safer methods? The answer is no. However, they are even more inappropriate for softer dogs into which most Greyhounds would fall.

 

As for the rigorous & methodical professional training... Well, nothing has given me the impression they have gotten that. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying? They have had very different handling, housing and in large measure a lack of training from what I have heard & seen. Their chase instinct has been heavily reinforced. They have learned to be boxed, crated & walk on a leash. They have learned to adapt to track & kennel life. However, Greys who never made it even to a training farm or track would still be poor candidates for his methods.

[Guest Swifthounds]

It's not the ex-racing greyhound's prior history or the particularities of the breed that make his old school dominance methods inappropriate and overly forceful - merely the fact that they are dogs that does so.

[Guest AnnieAreYouOK]

I haven't watched a lot of his show, but I thought all the dogs on that show are aggressive "red zone" dogs that are about to be put down. That's why his methods are more extreme.

 

My grey is pretty shy, so I can only use positive training.

Edited November 12, 2010 by AnnieAreYouOK

[Guest greytgravy]

I don't like his methods. Mostly because I just look at some of the rolls and cringe on behalf of the dog's physical self. It can't be good to be slammed by a grown man, training or not. I don't alpha roll Cam. Yes, we still argue a bit, but he's still a puppy in a puppy mind frame of no attention whatsoever unless it's something he wants. Instead, I've taught him other commands. Like "relax," so when I hold him the word associates with safety. I did it so he wouldn't accidentally hurt himself or a vet tech working with him. I have a bad habit of raising my voice, because while Cam is off his meds (cause the cost $50/month and sometimes money's tight), he tends to be hard to focus and that's the only thing that grabs. So to counter it, I speak very softly once he's tuned in. And I praise the heck of him once he listens. It's a trial and error process.

 

But if I were to do Millan's methods, my dog would be a nervous wreck. I used to watch the show and consider it, but then I started noticing the rougher treatment, and it turned me off. Especially on a dog like a pitbull, which is a breed I adore but don't have the right temperament for, it can be detrimental. That's just my opinion after working in a kennel attached to an ER for almost a year. The softer you were, the more the dogs would listen. Unless you have 150 dogs barking at once. Then you learn a kennel voice they all get quiet for so they can calm down. And do.

 

I also got a tad..alarmed at his forced treatment of fears instead of positive association. The Great Dane that slid along the floor. I much prefer my dog's trainer's methods. Cam doesn't get many treats because I want them to remain a surprise and very high reward for doing well at odd times. Instead, I was taught to give praise. It works on my mom's more stubborn dog as well (JRT/min pin/dox mix). I basically went through all 3 basic trainings with both of them within a year. The only time mine are flipped when it's on the couch and time for chest scratches.

[jetcitywoman]

I just want to share an interesting story related to alpha rolls. Capri alpha rolled herself several months ago, and it really blew me away. I think this is a story of a very sensitive dog, and the really good bond I have with her. Here is what happened:

 

I was sitting on the couch, rather on the edge of it with some space behind me, leaning forward talking to my husband. I was on the end that Capri prefers, and she came over and clearly wanted her spot. I told her (I know she doesn't really understand me, but it sure seems like it sometimes!) she could get behind me, and she did. Jumped up and snuggled in behind me. Which was just fine until I got up. I don't know if I accidentally leaned back slightly before getting up, which made her think I was going to squish her, or what, but she growled ferociously and air-snapped at me. I immediately turned and pulled her off the couch (saying NO). I wasn't afraid of her snapping, or angry, just mildly annoyed at her entitled attitude. I mention that to describe my emotion at the time, since they do read our emotions.

 

She immediately rolled shoulder first on the floor, looking up at me with a total "I'm sorry, mommy" look on her face. That blew me away so much that I bent down and petted her, feeling like I was telling her "I know sweetheart, you're forgiven". Then it was forgotten and we both went about our business. Am I reading too much into this? Maybe, but you just KNOW when you get certain vibes from your pets? Maybe it wasn't an alpha roll, but she was clearly submitting herself.

[Guest greytgravy]

I just want to share an interesting story related to alpha rolls. Capri alpha rolled herself several months ago, and it really blew me away. I think this is a story of a very sensitive dog, and the really good bond I have with her. Here is what happened:

 

I was sitting on the couch, rather on the edge of it with some space behind me, leaning forward talking to my husband. I was on the end that Capri prefers, and she came over and clearly wanted her spot. I told her (I know she doesn't really understand me, but it sure seems like it sometimes!) she could get behind me, and she did. Jumped up and snuggled in behind me. Which was just fine until I got up. I don't know if I accidentally leaned back slightly before getting up, which made her think I was going to squish her, or what, but she growled ferociously and air-snapped at me. I immediately turned and pulled her off the couch (saying NO). I wasn't afraid of her snapping, or angry, just mildly annoyed at her entitled attitude. I mention that to describe my emotion at the time, since they do read our emotions.

 

She immediately rolled shoulder first on the floor, looking up at me with a total "I'm sorry, mommy" look on her face. That blew me away so much that I bent down and petted her, feeling like I was telling her "I know sweetheart, you're forgiven". Then it was forgotten and we both went about our business. Am I reading too much into this? Maybe, but you just KNOW when you get certain vibes from your pets? Maybe it wasn't an alpha roll, but she was clearly submitting herself.

 

 

Both Cam and my current foster pug Erin submit all the time. I don't force it. I just figure they're conveying and let them do what they need to. Cam will do that, too, the squish thing. I've gotten used to not having any of the furniture to myself between the two. Cam is very, very sensitive to emotional perception with me. He seems very afraid to anger the one in charge and tends to hesitant. So I try my best to be positive. If he does something I don't like, he gets the "Go. Lay. Down." command that lets him know that he went to far. I used to use "Go to the kennel" but my fosters have been using it lately. (Why, no. He's not spoiled with two different kennels so he wouldn't confuse commands. Not at all. Why would you think such a thing?) He gets the lay down command when he does stuff like destroy more of the couch, or tries to chase the cats and they've chased him with intent to smack hard and maim so he has to know something other than "leave it."

 

My dad used to alpha roll his Corgi/GSD mix, but I couldn't do it. Like Cam, the dog is very sensitive to the moods of the people around him. He just wants you to sit still long enough to lay at your feet for a long nap. Daddy stopped once the dog got older, but I still think it was a bad move since he learned it off Cesar. Hoover would have benefited a lot more calm voices and firm tone. He'd been handraised since he was a day old, so I always got the feeling he was just trying to figure out the dog pack hierarchy once he left the foster's home.

[Laurenbiz]

I was at the dog park the other day. Some guy was telling another lady with a GSD puppy that she has to "make sure he knows who is the boss right away" and "dominance, dominance, dominance" and even telling her to alpha roll the puppy. I'm sad that this ignorance is still rampant in the pet owner world. I'm not often exposed to it among serious dog fanciers. It really upset me. I politely said I don't believe in dominance theory, suggest Jean Donaldson's book, and pointed out that I had perfect control of six "untrainable" sighthounds none of whom I'd EVER used such methods with, but they were not interested. That poor 8 week old puppy

 

Theses ideas are sending dog training back into the dark ages. So many reputable folks in training are trying to debunk and refute this menace but I'm afraid they are only being heard in academic & professional circles. Very hard to get a money maker off the air and that is what needs to happen to stop this retrograde tsunami of misinformation.

 

I agree .. poor poor puppy.

 

For my two cents: I really enjoy his show. Also, I'm currently reading his book, Cesar's Way. It's a good read if you're interested in gaining insight on canine psychology and how wolf packs operate in the wild. It is NOT a 'how to' book with step-by-step info about dog training.

 

I think his methods are compelling and, well, simple.

 

Do they work for retired racers? ...I don't know. I don't think so. Some pieces of info I've discovered in the book have been helpful with how I deal with my Bernie. Other pieces of info, though, I've disregarded, considering that Bernie is a Greyhound.

 

I think Cesar's methods really do work on the majority of dog breeds. Some methods may be too harsh for Greyhounds. Also, his procedures for exercise - especially the 3-hour roller-blading session he has with his dog pack at his Dog Psychology Center he explains in the book - don't apply well to Greyhounds. What Grey can exercise for three hours?!?!? :lol

 

Now, the guy at the dog park suggesting that an 8-week-old puppy be put into an alpha roll sounds like a dummy. I do believe that Cesar's methods work with the right dog, at the right time, and when performed in the right manner. To take one of Cesar's methods (like the roll,) and perform it on the wrong dog at the wrong time (like the puppy,) is, I believe, irresponsible.

 

I'm glad I found this thread! Now that I've been reading his book, I've been interested to hear what other Grey owners think about him.

[kudzu]

It's a good read if you're interested in gaining insight on canine psychology and how wolf packs operate in the wild. It is NOT a 'how to' book with step-by-step info about dog training.

Do not take what you read in his book & assume he knows what he is talking about. Please do more research on on canine psychology, how wolf packs truly operate & behavior science before you conclude that Millan is giving you real insight.

[Guest kydie]

I love when this thread comes around I do agree with some of the ideas he has like "dogs are dogs, and like to be dogs" and no matter what book you read,, and there are lots of them,,,, they all agree "dogs are not people" I also think poeple want a quick fix with issues THEY have with dogs,,, and his show gives you the idea that can happen, I have read all his books,,,, and many, many others,,, all are interesting,,,, one thing I do agree with is the need to be able to control dogs is a must,,,, especially if you live with a pack..... if you can not you may find yourself in the middle of a legal suite!

[Guest katethegreyt]

It's a good read if you're interested in gaining insight on canine psychology and how wolf packs operate in the wild. It is NOT a 'how to' book with step-by-step info about dog training.

Do not take what you read in his book & assume he knows what he is talking about. Please do more research on on canine psychology, how wolf packs truly operate & behavior science before you conclude that Millan is giving you real insight.

 

Agreed. I'm something of an animal behavior nerd, and though I've only recently adopted my own first dog, I've spent most of my life working with horses (professionally and as an amateur) and other animals and studying animal behavior for fun (and a bit in college). I've tried to research both sides thoroughly because I genuinely think Cesar is a good guy trying to help animals and has helped quite a few, but my conclusion is not in his favor.

 

Cesar's show, while interesting from time to time (mostly for the train wreck owners), is pop science at its worst. It's not merely good science dumbed down for the masses - it's a mishmash of misinterpretations of good science from a man who has a natural way with animals but lacks any basic training in the underlying science.

 

Now I'm not saying you need a PhD to be a respected source for things animal related. However, as far as I can tell, Cesar has not had the technical background you'd want from a person as widely followed as he is. He certainly has years of hands on experience, but with all the other professionals out there with years of BOTH hands on experience AND years of technical study, it's a shame that many people feel Cesar is the ONLY authority on these things. Especially when so many of the respected individuals in animal behavior (again, many with both years of actual hands on training experience and success and years of study and research) feel he's setting the field back years.

 

A couple of reasons why Cesar is good:

1) He advocates exercise as one of the easiest ways to "cure" dogs of their issues.

2) He advocates treating dogs like dogs instead of little spoiled humans.

3) He teaches people that your "energy" will absolutely affect your animals. Some people feel his "energy" commentary is a bit foufy, but I think it's a perfect descriptor. Working with all animals, you have to teach people that they must give off the right attitude in order to get an appropriate response. I work with a lot of people who treat their horses like half ton lap dogs - NOT SAFE! Then they wonder why they can't keep getting hurt because the horse never listens to them. I'll take the lead or get on the horse and because my attitude firmly says "Listen to me. I'm in charge but you can trust me," I rarely have the same issues.

 

I personally think there are more reasons that Cesar is bad, though perhaps he has drawn enough attention to the subject of dog training in general to do some good.

 

Reasons why he's not so good ("methods" refer to his actual training techniques beyond the acceptable more exercise, proper energy, etc):

1) His methods are often outdated and not as dog-friendly as other techniques that work as well or better.

2) His methods are VERY dangerous for newbies who lack the proper timing for utilizing his techniques.

3) His methods are difficult for owners to use effectively on their own (for many reasons, including the timing issue mentioned above).

4) His viewership is mostly made up of people who do not have a lot of exposure to the science of animal behavior or dog training outside of his show - this creates an effect similar to my grandmother and Fox News: people don't seek other sources of information because they find this one to be perfectly appealing and so take it as the be all end all source of information. Fox News and Cesar both sometimes have good and useful things to say, however, you MUST look to other sources to have your own INFORMED opinion.

 

I think Cesar is a guy that could be VERY effective if he took the time to study and work with some of the newer training techniques. He has an exceptional skill with dogs and tends to communicate with them very well (whether you like all of his techniques or not - his timing is impeccable), and he seems to have a special knack with dogs that are so red zone crazy, everyone else has recommended they be destroyed. I've seen a couple of his episodes where he's worked with more dog friendly techniques (slowly shaping behavior and responses with rewards), and he does a great job. I think there are rare rogue cases where older school techniques may need to be mixed in the training schedule if a more dog friendly technique has failed, and I think Cesar is a person who can utilize these techniques effectively. I would love to see him embrace newer techniques consistently because I think he has a great natural talent. Unfortunately, I don't know that he can take this path at this point in his career (though I think maybe he has softened some since his earlier seasons).

[Guest tysmom]

I adore CM personally, I do happen to think that his methods just cant be done by every one because not everyone can pull off the alpha mentality.

I consider myself a very good alpha...lol I just choose to let my dogs wrap me around their paws...lol

I especially love his work with extremely aggressive dogs in danger of being put down.

I like the idea that he knows when a dog is too much for a person and takes the dog himself.

deb

[Laurenbiz]

It's a good read if you're interested in gaining insight on canine psychology and how wolf packs operate in the wild. It is NOT a 'how to' book with step-by-step info about dog training.

Do not take what you read in his book & assume he knows what he is talking about. Please do more research on on canine psychology, how wolf packs truly operate & behavior science before you conclude that Millan is giving you real insight.

 

 

I really liked his opening chapter where he described his childhood living on a farm and how he learned about the dogs all around his farm by simply observing them. He clearly notes that they were not seen as 'pets.'

 

So, of course his basis for understanding canine psychology is his self-taught, first-hand observance of the dogs being together. He indeed does lack the technical background - as another poster pointed out. I understand that other behaviorists' studies are much more evidence-based.

 

I'm finished with the book now (finished it just earlier this week,) and it was an interesting read, nonetheless!

Edited January 20, 2011 by Laurenbiz

[Guest june]

CM has good entertainment value and some educational value. I've read his books and seen most of the series. I agree that his timing is great and he has helped a lot of dogs that would otherwise have been put down. He is a very strong personality and has great observation skills and a good understanding what motivates a dog.

 

I think too many people disregard his caution (at the beginning of each episode and in his books) that what he does should not be attempted by the lay-person. The other thing people need to recognize is that, for the purpose of the time of an episode, much of what he does has been left out.

 

I've always tried to give my dogs regular exercise (no 3-hour roller blade runs, thank you) but I have become more dedicated to this after reading his books and watching his series. His explanations for his suggestions of regular exercise in particular. My girls get walked, played with or worked with (I also like to mentally stimulate my dogs) everyday depending on the weather and my time allowances. They get group interactions and individual attention. They are happy, content, and get along very well. I love them with all my heart, but I do remember they are dogs with a dogs needs. When they get out of line (which is not often) all it takes is a sharp "Uh uh" or "hey" for them to understand they need to stop.

:gh_face

Three happy greys

and

june

[Guest barkdogs]

I have not read his book. I do watch the show and to be honest, I don't think I have seen him alpha roll a dog. I do find some of his stuff helpful--I have always believed that tired dogs are good dogs! I do use my body in more ways--a knee rotated to the side when Allistair is wanting to get in front of me because he is wanting to bark and lunge at a reactive (or potentially reactive) dog across the street. Not a kick, but a block with my leg. Not to hurt/hit him, simply to provide a physical block and refocus him on me. Bear in mind I am 5'1" and weigh 115, and I usually walk my 7 dogs all together.

 

The calm/assertive thing helps me. I find that when I am calmly focused on them they respond better to me. I guess mostly when I watch the show I watch his body language and that is what I find the most useful.I have to admit, I started out with contempt. I don't like the machismo, but honestly when I watch him with dogs I just see focus. Is he sometimes very assertive with aggressive dogs? yes! But it seems a lot of those dogs would injure or kill other dogs and humans without intervention.

 

A friend of mine took over walking an under socialized cane corso (BIG). The first time out he gave the dog a couple of good yanks and a bop (no more) when he was trying to lunge out of control. The dog responded and began to listen. It only took one or two bops to get him to pay attention. Then he started praising and rewarding him for being good. He spent a lot of time at each walking session--walking the dog and just hanging out with him, giving him love and attention. A month later this dog who has been terribly neglected by his wealthy owner is walking calmly, going to public places and even plays in the dog park. He is a young gentleman and he is a super dog. He just needed structure first and then love and attention. Go figure. He loves his walker and the owner says the dog is transformed.

 

My point is, each dog is different. There is no formula, but understanding body language and being observant of your dog is, in my view, essential. If you don't take the time to get to know him/her, how will you be able to teach him about the world of humans?

[Guest missecho]

After having worked with a very talented trainer who uses clicker training, when I watch Ceasar I can see he is not at the cutting edge of dog training. My grey's trainer got much better results with much less effort and trauma using a clicker and some chicken bits.

[Guest Servicedog]

Greetings from Gwynnie the service dog's Mom!

 

I am a member of the Psychatric Service Dog list serve (currently off list). We had some information last fall about Ceasar "certifying" Jr. as a service dog, and encouraging others to do the same by going to an online site that encourages you to certify your dog as a service dog, and, for about $200, they will send you an identification and badges etc. Jr. was "certified" as a service dog for other dogs.

 

That is NOT what a service dog is. I had enjoyed Ceasar's show, bought books, which turned out to be name dropping chest thumping epistles, in my opinion, and had enjoyed the show. I lost much of my respect for him. Shortly after the PSDS complained to his website, the article was removed from his website.

 

Later...

Mary and Gwynnie

[Guest greyhoundgirl1]

if nothing else, he's at least gotten a lot more average dog owners to think about training and/or exercising their dogs.

 

Ditto!!!!!Many people lose sight of these basics.

[Guest tysmom]

Lol, I adore Cesar... in spite of everything people all have opinions.

I am in awe of his control and wish i had it..lol

 

I love his accent and it makes me giggle all the time. I love the way he brings attention to the

plight of severely aggressive dogs and how they can, with the right person not be put down.

To each his own opinion .. you know how that goes,

deb

[Guest Greyglo]

I loved Daddy. Someone did this huge portrait of him -

 

 

[jetcitywoman]

if nothing else, he's at least gotten a lot more average dog owners to think about training and/or exercising their dogs.

 

Ditto!!!!!Many people lose sight of these basics.

 

I'd watched a few of his episodes before we adopted our first. Every. Single. One:

 

Clueless Owner: Cesar, my dog is insane!

CM: Okay, when do you walk him?

CO: Oh, we don't have time for that, we're busy professionals.

 

Me: AAARRRGGGGHHHHHH

 

So when we were going through the adoption process (or actually before), DH and I swore to each other that we would walk our dog EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

 

About two years later. We still do. It's not a chore, it's companionable time with our beasties.

[Guest Ashleigh]

I think Caesar is amazing! I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that he takes these agressive cases and makes them suitable for home life again, istead of having to be put down. He's not showing these techniques on his show for daily use for every dog. He's mostly about staying calm and assertive and excercising the crap out of your dog! I've been a faithful watcher of his show and not once did I get the message to put my own dog on its side, or snap the leash on the walk. I dont have to because that's not the kind of dog I have. He gets his daily walks and he's great! He knows his boundaries and I don't let him push me around. Done and done.

 

And of all the episodes I've seen, I haven't seen a greyhound once. I do believe greyhounds are likened to cats and have to be treated and trained in many different ways from the 'average dog'. The entire Caesar thread seems a little out of place for this forum. We're not rescuing pitbulls and chow chows and trying to rehabilitate an aggressive case.

 

Take Caesar for what he is. He's an amazing lover of all dogs and is trying to teach people how to care for them so they don't end up in pounds or being destroyed for no reason. I don't believe he's out there to harm any animal, though his methods may look a little harsh, they've worked and the dog goes on to live a full life.

 

All in all, look at the big picture. He's doing his part for the dogs just as we all are.

[Guest manawatugal]

Cesar does have good results although I have only ever watched a handful of shows, don't always understand where he is coming from. Well obviously he is trying to teach the owners what to do in problem areas but I must say do prefer Victoria Stilwell and Jan Fennell for dog problems/training. Very easy to get the hang of what is going on quickly, maybe it is his accent?

Yes greys are different in lots of ways to other dogs and I wonder whether they are 'less' problematic than many other breeds or I could just be biased!

[Guest Babs]

What can you sad bad about Cesar Milan???? He thinks he is a pit bull or rottweiler! And apparently so do the dogs he works with...How bad can that be????