Grey reactivity to other greys

[Julz]

I have a female greyhound who has recently developed a dislike for other greys... to be fair she is on the lead when this happens and her growl deepens so much so I am concerned its aggression.  I presume seeing other greyhounds must be triggering for her.  I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this change in their greys behaviour.

[racindog]

Its been my experience it is more often competitiveness than actual aggression.  I would watch them run in the yard and most just play but I have seen them reach over and try to bite another hound that is gaining on them. Some horses do the same thing when they race.  Just another argument for how you can't go wrong muzzling them then no harm is done. I never correct for it because they are just doing what their genes and their training is telling them to and I don't think it would be fair. No harm is done since they are muzzled and they are having fun. I think it is good for them to have a little freedom to act like a dog and have fun sometimes.

[greysmom]

Greyhounds being reactive to greyhounds is more rare than being reactive towards other breeds.  If it *only* happens when she is on leash, and she's fine meeting other greyhounds when she running free, she may be having an anxiety reaction to being restrained during those meetings.  Leash reactivity is a behavior that can be worked on with patience and time.  

Patricia McConnell is a very good dog trainer and behaviorist.  She has many good books regarding training for different behavioral issues.  This is her booklet for leash reactivity:

Feisty Fido: Help for the Leash Reactive Dog

If you dog is only showing anxiety towards greyhounds, and not other breeds, when meeting on leash, I would be concerned that there has been some sort of incident that occurred to make her feel that a warning is necessary.  Even very hard, competitive playing is usually easily separated from a more serious reaction between greyhounds.

[HeyRunDog]

22 hours ago, Julz said:

I have a female greyhound who has recently developed a dislike for other greys... to be fair she is on the lead when this happens and her growl deepens so much so I am concerned its aggression.  I presume seeing other greyhounds must be triggering for her.  I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this change in their greys behaviour.

How long have you had her and is she neutered?

[DaveS]

Can anyone comment on the temperament difference between retired racing greys as opposed to grey puppies bought from a breeder?

From what I've read, the retired racers were handled by a myriad of people during their careers such as the breeders, handlers, feeders, walkers, vets, trainers, etc.  That is to say the dogs are accustomed to being handled by many people and being around many other dogs.  I think this is one of the reasons retired dogs get along so well with people and other dogs.  We recently adopted our third grey.  From day 1, he has gotten along with the two other dogs with absolutely no growls or conflicts such as territory, resource guarding, eating, etc.  It's like he's always been part of the pack.

I wonder how greyhound puppies who are purchased from a breeder at age 8-10 weeks and have not had the experience of racers compare in temperament.  I suspect that all greyhounds have fundamentally similar temperaments, but do the differences in upbringing result in different behavior?

The reason I ask about this is about what the future holds for the breed.  With more tracks closing, fewer greys will be available and it may be that the only dogs available will be puppies purchased from breeders.

Your thoughts are welcome.

[1Moregrey]

Can not comment on grey puppies vs racing greys as I have only had retired greys.

I know the people who put there heart and soul into raising the racing greys do an awesome job of raising them and they are expertly raised and socialized.  That is what makes them a great companion/ retired pet.  Nowhere else will you ever be able to get such well adjusted dogs.  It will be hard to give a puppy that much love, care, attention  and socializing for the average dog owner.  Not to mention all the social lessons they get from growing up with there siblings.  
 

For me that is what makes the retired greyhounds the best companion.  Where else can you get a clean slate no bad habits adult near adult dog.  Anything that you get from a shelter will come with less socialization and or someone else’s training not a bad thing there are great shelter dogs too.

For me I know my current greyhound will be my last and it is very sad.  So just a THANK YOU to anyone who has had a part in raising/caring for any of my 5 greyhounds or any of the 5 fosters.  You do incredible work that has touched many more lives than you could imagine.  Three were therapy dogs that saw people in the hospitals, care centers, schools and public events.  We were the first greyhound therapy team for our area too.  They have represented there early care takers well.

So again a big thank you from a fan of all your hard work and sleepless night.

[Time4ANap]

We've met a couple of AKC greyhounds when they were young. They were just as sweet and friendly as the retired racers and seemed to get along well with others.  They were still land sharks though - they were into everything that they could possibly get into. 

[greysmom]

I've had 11 greyhounds total, most were retired racers.  The youngest NGA-bred was 18 mos old (training dropout).  The oldest was a 9 year old bounce (from a loving situation, but her owner had to travel for work and wasn't home enough to care for a pet).  I've also had two siblings (NGA) from the same litter - one adopted at 12 weeks and one at 13 mos - and another puppy adopted at 12 weeks.  She was ostensibly from Irish racing parents, imported to Canada for farm vermin control.  I've never owned any AKC dogs, but I've met quite a few at amateur racing events and have friends who are breeders, so I've been around young AKC puppies.

There is really no appreciable difference in temperament between retired racers and NGA-bred puppies.  Their temperaments have been genetically fixed through targeted breeding for hundreds of years.  They have always needed to be trainable, workable, people-oriented dogs to do their job - working in packs or solo to hunt down game that runs really fast.  And unlike other breeds, they have continued to be bred to do exactly the same job better and better throughout the hundreds of years they have been a distinct breed.  They aren't naturally cooperative workers - like a hunting or herding breed - but they all love and need the companionship of people.  They are, in many respects, the ultimate expression of a purpose-bred dog.

So there are many aspects of temperament between NGA dogs and AKC dogs that are exactly the same too.  Show dogs have the same history behind their breeding as racing dogs - there wasn't any separation until the last, probably, 50-75 years.   That's a lot of dog generations, but a drop in the bucket for a breed that's a 1000 years old (or more).  They are all sweet and people oriented.  If anything the AKC dogs I've met are a little more flexible, and accepting of other breeds due to extra puppy socialization and raising techniques from attentive breeders.

And many AKC breeders out-cross and in-cross NGA bloodlines regularly to produce what they call "performance bred" dogs.  While these puppies can be NGA registered due to their parentage, they are usually either AKC or have dual registries.  They compete in all sorts of AKC and amateur racing sports.  These breeders are attempting to keep the ability to do their job locked in the greyhound's genetic code.

We've been spoiled by having access to lots of (relatively) cheap, easily available, well-trained companion animals.  The days of low adoption fees and kennels full of sweet natured dogs in every color are really over.  What I really dread is the proliferation of backyard breeders who manage to get a hold of unaltered dogs, or who purchase them from unethical breeders/farmers getting out of the business, so there's a glut of overbred and over priced inferior dogs and useless crosses.  Breeders who breed for color or some other useless thing they get focused on and forget what greyhounds were - and are, and should always be - bred to do.

Sorry.  This got kind of long.  The short version is a greyhound is a greyhound, no matter where they come from! 

End of rant!!

[MerseyGrey]

I think that, just like people, dogs are the sum of their experiences, and while their genes play a huge part in their personality there is an element of nurture which will affect how they behave. My retired racer has been a wonderful introduction into the world of greyhounds - he’s a dream with people, with the worst behaviour he shows being to ignore them (very, very occasionally) but has also been known to bury his head into strangers armpits after nuzzling inside their coats. But he’s a complete nark with other dogs and is unpredictable in how he will behave with them. This includes other sighthounds, although he is much more accepting of them. We were told that he had been attacked by another dog which almost certainly accounts for some of this behaviour.

So I suppose I am saying that I am saying that I don’t think it makes a difference if the dog has been a racer or not. If a non-working dog has been trained and socialised well, it should demonstrate similar breed characteristics to its working counterparts, excluding any adverse experiences.

[DaveS]

Thanks, folks.  Your comments make feel better about the future of greyhounds.

[okslater]

My previous grey, Lemming, would growl and misbehave around other greys, but it was because she was into them too much. She was also a biter, and would excitedly go for their necks when playing. She never learnt to play nice, so we had to muzzle her whenever she was off lead, after a few trips to the vet for our other grey, Badger. I noticed neck nipping is a common thing with greys, but she didn't get the memo that you're not supposed to break the skin. She was obsessed with other greys, though, and what we interpreted early on in our inexperience as aggression, was actually play. She was much happier when we adopted our second grey, as then we realised she'd wanted a companion all along.

[greysmom]

I'm going to push my luck and post this for you @DaveS This is a talk given by John Parker - an owner, a breeder, and greyhound expert - at the recent national greyhound association gathering.  It apparently had a Power Point deck along with it, but this is just the text.

 

WHO WILL BREED – AND TEST – THE AMERICAN GREYHOUND IN THE FUTURE ?

     A presentation by John Parker at the 2022 Heart of America Greyhound Gathering in Abilene, Kansas

 

Last year, it was my pleasure to speak to you about the history of the Greyhound breed. This year, I’ve been asked to speak to you about the future of the Greyhound breed, or at least that segment of the breed known as the American racing Greyhound.

We all know that sadly professional American Greyhound racing may be reaching its sunset. The Iowa Greyhound Park held its last racing meeting ever earlier this year. The Southland track near Memphis will cease live racing at the end of the year. That will leave only two American Greyhound tracks, both in West Virginia, and it’s anybody’s guess how long Delaware North, the company that owns both those tracks, will want to remain in the live Greyhound racing business. Delaware North also owns Southland, so that may be one predictor.

I hope I’m wrong. I hope professional Greyhound racing comes back in the near term, perhaps to Kansas or Alabama, where wagering on Greyhound racing is still legal and there are still track venues present. But a betting man or woman probably wouldn’t take that bet. And so it’s time to hedge those bets and talk realistically about a future in which there is little or no American Greyhound racing, there are far fewer, if any, racing Greyhounds are being bred for the pro track, and there are no former racing Greyhounds for many of the people who still want to have Greyhounds in their lives.  

So this current state of play gives rise to the question that’s the title of my talk – Who Will Breed – and Test – the American Greyhound in the Future ?  I’m here to suggest to you that a significant player in the answer to that question is the American Greyhound adoption community, which has evolved over the years into a community of Greyhound enthusiasts who have embraced the breed and are its most enthusiastic and effective advocates. In short, folks, it’s you and Greyhound enthusiasts like you all over the U.S.

We now find ourselves in a somewhat similar position to that of the other sighthound breed communities, in which hobbyist breeders breed and see to the athletic testing of the puppies they produce.
 

SLIDE 2
 Their experience demonstrates that there are three essential elements to preserving and extending important bloodlines:

1. Responsible breeders who will breed from athletically proven breeding stock;

2. Breed enthusiasts who will buy puppies from those breeders;
 

3. The athletic testing of most of the dogs as adults in public amateur athletic competitions.

SLIDE 3

Let me digress for a moment here to say that I’m not here to talk anybody into having a Greyhound puppy in their future. I get that some Greyhound people only want an “easy” adult former racer, and that’s fine. I hope you will always be able to have an adult former racer in your life, and I wish you the best of luck in being able to assure yourself of their presence for the indefinite future.

But for those who, again, want to hedge your bets and have greater assurance that you will always be able to have a Greyhound from racing bloodlines in your life, it would be prudent to give thoughtful consideration to your options. And remember that acquiring a Greyhound puppy and adopting an adult former racer aren’t mutually exclusive propositions. I’ve had both myself for about the past 12 years or so, as have a goodly number of Greyhound friends, and to a person they say that puppies and adults together are a joy to have. There is little that is more satisfying and more fun than watching adult Greyhounds interacting with Greyhound puppies. One of our adult Greyhounds takes great delight in being chased around by puppies, and has become one of our official Greyhound puppy exercisers.

Let’s first address a couple of misconceptions about home-bred, home-reared Greyhound puppies. The first and most famous one is “Greyhound puppies are land sharks !” Okay. If you’ve only been to a racing Greyhound farm like Mike Strickland’s wonderful facility that we visited this morning, I can understand why you might believe that. Greyhound puppies reared with their littermates in traditional outdoor long runs are proper little hellions, no doubt about it. They haven’t yet had the civilizing influence of being transitioned into a training kennel and then a racing kennel to become the relatively well-behaved Greyhounds you’ve adopted as adults.

Hobbyist-bred and home-reared Greyhound puppies, on the other hand, aren’t usually reared in long runs. They’re more usually reared in the breeder’s home or in a small kennel. And a good hobbyist breeder will have had them exposed to a number of people, various environmental stimuli, and other dogs (and possibly even cats) in the 8 – 12 weeks that they’re with the breeder. And once they’re in the new owner’s home, properly supervised and exercised, they’re no more “land sharks” than any other breed of puppy. In fact, I’ve had quite a few multi-breed people tell me that of all the breeds of puppies they’ve raised, the Greyhound puppies were among the easiest.

The second misconception that we often see repeated on Greyhound Facebook groups goes something like, “Because of the way they’re raised and trained, former racing Greyhounds are unique and completely different as pets from Greyhounds who don’t have that background.”  I used to believe that too – until I was given my first Greyhound puppy and home-reared him. Imagine my surprise when he grew up and was essentially indistinguishable from my adopted former racers in terms of temperament, biddability and his overall attributes as a pet and companion. Since that time, I’ve home-reared numerous Greyhound puppies from racing and coursing bloodlines, and the experience has been the same. I’ve seen the same result with numerous Greyhound friends who have home-reared their Greyhounds from a puppy.  I’ve become convinced that “nature” – which is to say bloodlines – is just as important as “nurture” – form of rearing – in how a Greyhound turns out as an adult pet.

 

So if you might be interested in joining that part of the Greyhound community which will support hobbyist Greyhound breeders at some point in the future, let’s talk a bit about those breeders. You often hear the fear expressed that as hobby breeders take the place of racing breeders to meet the demand for Greyhounds as pets, there may be “backyard breeders” who “get into breeding for the money.” I often ask people who use that term to tell me what it means, and they rarely seem to be able to articulate a workable definition. So rather than try to define (and thus avoid) the “backyard” Greyhound breeder, I think it’s more productive in terms of selecting a responsible Greyhound breeder to identify some of the “best practices” that responsible Greyhound breeders follow:


SLIDE 4
 

1. Breeds only athletically-tested breeding stock

2. Participates in sighthound sports with their potential future breeding stock

3. Health tests their breeding stock – performance or clinical

4. Places breeding priorities equally on athletic ability, health and temperament in making breeding choices.

5. Provides lifetime owner support and requires return of the Greyhound, per written contract, if the owner no longer wants it or can’t keep it.

6. Allows puppies to go their homes no younger than 8 weeks of age (10 or 12 weeks better).
7. Doesn’t breed for color or other non-essential appearance factors
8. Provides puppies with socialization and enrichment experiences, and provides large fenced area for daily running and playing with littermates

9. Encourages visits to their facilities by prospective puppy homes

 

Now, you may ask, where can I find these responsible Greyhound breeders ?
Thanks to the advent of the internet and social media, your search is easier than ever. Here are some good resources:

SLIDE 5

The Facebook group, “Greyhound Puppies” : www.facebook.com/groups/GreyhoundPuppies

       We started this group in 2014, and today it has almost 12,000 members. Most of the hobbyist Greyhound breeders in the U.S. and Canada are members, and will use the group to announce breeding plans, the whelping of litters and the availability of puppies. It’s also a good resource for people who are thinking about buying a Greyhound puppy and for people looking for advice on Greyhound puppy rearing.


The Good Dog web site: www.gooddog.com

     I recently discovered this web site when I was contacted by them and asked if I wanted to be listed on their breeder directory. They screen prospective breeder members fairly thoroughly, and breeders can’t pay to be on it. There are a goodly number of hobbyist Greyhound breeders on their listing, though not all of them are breeding from racing and coursing bloodlines. Overall, it’s a good place to start your research, but of course it’s no substitute for doing your own due diligence on breeders and their breeding programs.

The Greyhound Nation Podcast, Episode 5 -- https://greyhoundnation.dog/2020/hobby-breeder-roundtable-episode-5/

      I’ll take a point of personal privilege to mention the Greyhound podcast that Michael Burns and I host – this episode features a useful roundtable discussion among several hobbyist Greyhound breeders with good tips on how to establish a dialogue with hobbyist Greyhound breeders whose breeding programs are of interest to you. And really that’s what you want to do – talk with several breeders about your goals in buying a Greyhound puppy and the breeders’ goals for their programs and the puppies they produce.

Two final points on shopping for a hobbyist Greyhound breeder. First, it’s perfectly acceptable to ask a breeder about their puppy prices – just don’t make it your first question out of the gate. The typical current price range for hobbyist-bred Greyhound puppies from racing or coursing bloodlines is $1000 - $2000, and you will find some less than that if the breeder isn’t particularly focused on adding a mark-up over their out-of-pocket expenses. And remember that price isn’t necessarily an indicator of quality, or lack thereof.

Second, most breeders will recommend that you cast your search net nationwide in looking for a Greyhound breeder. Unlike breeders of more numerous breeds, hobbyist Greyhound breeders are geographically fairly spread out across the U.S. and Canada. There’s not one in every state.  But don’t let that discourage you – puppy road or air transport is widely available, and every responsible Greyhound breeder will know how to help you arrange transportation if you are unable to pick up your puppy yourself.

So that’s who will, in my view, likely breed the American Greyhound and preserve racing bloodlines in the coming years.

Now, let’s talk about who will test the athletic abilities of the American Greyhound in the future. In short, it will be the breeders and the people who acquire puppies from them.  Of course, not everyone who buys a Greyhound puppy can or will compete in sighthound sports with their puppy when it becomes an adult, but it’s important to the preservation of the American Greyhound’s legacy of athletic excellence that a significant number of people take their Greyhounds out to test their athletic abilities in public competitions.

 It’s a matter of the old saying, “Use it or lose it.” If hobbyist Greyhound breeders don’t have homes who will commit to competing at least several puppies from each litter, then the breeder has no way of knowing whether he or she is continuing to produce athletically excellent Greyhounds and thus passing down one of the central traits that form the historical legacy of our breed. In the past, it was the work and commitment of the American racing breeders and racing owners that assured the continuation of that legacy. Now, that work and commitment must come from us in the community of Greyhound enthusiasts, or else the American Greyhound will become just a nice pet that’s a shadow of its former athletic self.

Luckily, there are a variety of running opportunities for Greyhounds in amateur sports, and clubs hosting sighthound sports events are widely distributed around the country. Let’s look at those opportunities:

SLIDE 6
        Lure Coursing – ASFA, AKC , UKC, NLCC lure coursing

SLIDE 7

     Amateur racing –  LGRA straight racing and NOTRA oval racing

SLIDE 8

       NOFCA open field coursing – western states of California, Texas and Wyoming

 

SLIDE 9

    Agility trials – sanctioned by AKC, CPE, USDAA, UKC and NADAC

SLIDE 10
    Dock Diving – NADD

A word about FAST CAT events – be very circumspect in running a Greyhound in these events and choose your venues and host clubs carefully.

To Close: As you can see there are plenty of opportunities to see Greyhounds run, and I hope that some of you who have faithfully gone to the Greyhound tracks over the years will continue the pleasure and enjoyment of watching Greyhounds run competitively by going to and supporting amateur sighthound sports.

SLIDE 11

         

[DaveS]

Thanks very much, Mom.  This reinforces my optimism about the future of greyhounds.  I just hope that there won't be any greyhound puppy mills popping up.

Our local organization is connected with a kennel that races at one of the West Virginia tracks.  Hopefully they will be a source of retirees for a while.

[DaveS]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I was thinking about the future of the two tracks in WV.  Both tracks are associated with a casino.  Not to cast negatives against WV, but it's not the wealthiest state in the Union.  I'm sure these casinos generate revenue that is absorbed by the community as well as providing employment for locals.  The tracks are a big draw for tourists to come visit (bring money).  It would seem to me that the casinos and track will continue to operate.  If not, the economy of WV will take another hit.