Aggression Or Play?

[Guest Echogrey]

We have had our 2 year old greyhound, Echo, for almost 2 months. She has been wonderful. Except for the occasional accident in the house. We have a 3 year old daughter, and she and Echo are becoming friends. A couple times while playing outside, Echo has nipped at Bella, enough to make her cry, but not leaving more than a red mark. Never breaking skin. We are ALWAYS vigilant when they are together.

Today Bella went out of the fenced yard with her grandfather. Echo barked and laid by the fence. When they came back in the fenced area, Echo ran, jumped on Bella and penned her to the ground and wouldn't let her up. She also nipped her on the shoulder but again, didn't break skin. My question: is this aggression or play? Should we be concerned!

[Time4ANap]

Sounds like play but, you need to correct the behavior before your child is injured accidentally, and your dog ends up labeled as a biter or vicious. There is no harm in muzzling until the behavior is corrected so that the teeth can't make contact.

 

There are some good trainers on this site who I'm sure will be along and give you the best options for correcting the behavior.

 

A 2 year old greyhound still has a whole lot of puppy energy and needs to be worn out with play, walks, etc each day.

[Dave_P]

Sounds like rough play, which is too much for a 3 year old.

[greysmom]

This is a bad accident waiting to happen and you don't seem to be doing anything to stop it.

 

Greyhound play is rough, and they regularly draw blood on each other without muzzles. It's one reason greyhounds come home with large scars - puppy play in their home kennels. They use their teeth and nip and bite, jump, bump, and smash into each other so that it resembles more of an MMA match than a play session.

 

Your three year old toddler should NOT be "playing" with this dog at any point unsupervised, and definitely should never be getting the dog aroused enough to nip and bite. The dog should never be allowed to jump on her or knock her down. Never.

 

As an adult, when a dog jumps, you turn away and cross your arms and ignore the dog until it calms down. You do this over and over until the dog learns it's not going to be rewarded with your attention when it jumps. As an adult, when a dog nips and bites in play you do much the same thing, yell "OUCH!" like the dog hurt you and turn away and ignore the dog. As long as you keep engaging the dog you are rewarding her for bad behavior.

 

With a child, it's up to *you* to protect the little human. When you see the dog becoming too excited, remove the child from the activity until the dog calms down. Redirect the dog to playing with a more appropriate toy (or person). Take the dog away from the situation and engage her in another way. The one thing you should not do is pick the child up in your arms. For some reason this just causes the dog to become *more* aroused rather than less. Protect the child from the dog with your body and walk her out of the room. Or snap a leash on the dog and remove her calmly to a less exciting part of the house for a time out. Once she understands that playing that way will result in isolation, she should self-limit her play activity with the child.

 

As said above, a 2 year old greyhound is a puppy in an adult body. They need a lot of mental and physical engagement and exercise to be a well-mannered family member - long walks or jogging, play sessions with a ball or toy, short training sessions througout the day, playing with a lure pole, and doggy day care for socialization and excersize can give you all a break.

 

Here's a Amazon link to a good primer by Patricia McConnell. It's not greyhound specific, but she gives you good training lessons for creating a well-behaved family dog.

Family Friendly Dog Training

https://smile.amazon.com/Family-Friendly-Dog-Training-Program-ebook/dp/B008Z1XYVS/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1501259509&sr=8-6&keywords=Mcconnell+puppy

 

As a bonus, all Patricia McConell books are on sale right now.

[GeorgeofNE]

I guess we are to assume Bella is your child?

 

Yeah. She's way too small to be playing with a greyhound.

 

It's not aggression. It's how big dogs play.

 

Stop it now. She could hurt your child, but it won't be her fault.

[JohnF]

Neither Aggression nor Play. its a Warning.

If Echo really wanted to bite, believe me she would have already done so.

The nips are an escalation as a result of no-one bothering to read and respect her body language.

So you have to stop that child clambering all over her and otherwise invading her space. There's no other way of saying this really:

it's not cute, it's not funny. It's just not good parenting and you have to do something about it starting today lest the 3-year old gets a nasty injury and the dog gets reported when the doctors and insurance people have to deal with it.

[Guest Echogrey]

Please do not misunderstand me. We protect our child under all costs, and the dog is muzzled much of the time. This was a side of the dog we had never seen before. Her adoption agency thinks it was play. We do not allow Our daughter to "play" with our dog, and certainly, as one person rather cruelly replied on here, do not think it is "funny" or "cute." We are good parents and put our child above everything. I do not appreciate an attack on my parenting. This is an open forum and everyone is free to give their opinion. I would love advice, but leave the judgment at home, please.

[Guest Echogrey]

This is Bella's Dad and we appreciate help from "some" of you about our incident today. We love our grey and we really love our daughter. My wife and I assumed this forum was for helpful discussion of greys and we are so glad to get useful advice. For those who attacked us and our parenting skills should keep to Facebook where the overly judgmental go to lash out and impart on the world their $.02. Our daughter has never clambered on a dog and we don't put them out in the yard together alone to play. Our dog gets a ton of exercise and is very happy. In fact she lays in our daughters bedroom because she loves her. Don't question our parenting or our "not doing anything to stop it." You have NO clue what has happened up to this point. Suggesting we would find any of this "funny" or "cute" is appalling and hurtful. Is that what you intended?Asking for advice is genuine and if we only can expect a lashing we will considerthis forum what YOU have put it - nasty.

[Dave_P]

Echogrey - this is internet. Some times you need thick skin.

[JohnF]

OK, sorry for being so snarky. I just meant that a small child often thinks it's cute and funny to be clambering over a dog and having it grumble about it. The comment was general, not personal. I misread it too that the child jumped on the dog when it was the other way around. That being the case the dog is acting in a manner that is much too rough. The child is possibly being seen as an equal playmate rather than a higher ranking human and you can probably work on putting that right.

 

 

The general take on dogs, kids and parents is that the parents have to watch the dog's signs better and intervene before the dog gets too intense as outlined in the link

and also this link on child proofing a dog.

[Scoutsmom]

Echogrey, I am sorry people got snarky with you. That is not the usual tone of this site.

 

People: Please take time to read the person's message thoroughly and digest it before you reply. And consider the tone of your message. Readers cannot see you or hear the tone of your voice so some things that might be okay to say in person come off as very snarky on the internet. We want this to remain a pleasant place to come.

 

Echogrey, You have gotten some good advice here, especially from Greymom--she knows her dogs. As others have said, your dog is playing too rough and needs to learn to tone it done. One thing I would add is have your child routinely give Echo treats and be the person who puts down the food bowl at mealtimes (if she is physically able to). This will help show Echo that Belle is not another puppy, but a young leader of the pack and needs to be treated as such.

[NeylasMom]

I guess my question is, does it matter? It's impossible for anyone here to tell you whether it was play or aggression not having seen the behavior, but either way it's dangerous for your 3 year old. I would suggest better management - just don't have them in the yard together when your dog is off leash. If you all need to be out there, use an x-pen for your dog or daughter to keep them separate. I would also consider enrolling in a force free training class to teach her some basic manners and better understand how to read her behavior. If you think its aggression, seek out a qualified professional sooner, before it escalates. And make sure they used reward based training, not punishment. Dont let folks claiming to be "balanced trainers" fool you either - its a euphemism for people who train with punishment.

[greysmom]

We have had our 2 year old greyhound, Echo, for almost 2 months. She has been wonderful. Except for the occasional accident in the house. We have a 3 year old daughter, and she and Echo are becoming friends. A couple times while playing outside, Echo has nipped at Bella, enough to make her cry, but not leaving more than a red mark. Never breaking skin. We are ALWAYS vigilant when they are together.

Today Bella went out of the fenced yard with her grandfather. Echo barked and laid by the fence. When they came back in the fenced area, Echo ran, jumped on Bella and penned her to the ground and wouldn't let her up. She also nipped her on the shoulder but again, didn't break skin. My question: is this aggression or play? Should we be concerned!

 

This is Bella's Dad and we appreciate help from "some" of you about our incident today. We love our grey and we really love our daughter. My wife and I assumed this forum was for helpful discussion of greys and we are so glad to get useful advice. For those who attacked us and our parenting skills should keep to Facebook where the overly judgmental go to lash out and impart on the world their $.02. Our daughter has never clambered on a dog and we don't put them out in the yard together alone to play. Our dog gets a ton of exercise and is very happy. In fact she lays in our daughters bedroom because she loves her. Don't question our parenting or our "not doing anything to stop it." You have NO clue what has happened up to this point. Suggesting we would find any of this "funny" or "cute" is appalling and hurtful. Is that what you intended?Asking for advice is genuine and if we only can expect a lashing we will considerthis forum what YOU have put it - nasty.

 

Chill out.

 

If you go back and re-read the original post (which was only 13 sentences long), whoever was writing it gave us precious little information to go on, and what *was* given, was extremely scary. Even with your "vigilance," apparently, your dog was knocking your small daughter over and mouthing her hard enough to hurt her - more than once, more than twice, more than three times. There was NO information given about ANYTHING you as parents are doing to protect your child, or to protect and train your dog.

 

You're right about one thing - we have no clue about anything that happened up to this point - because that information wasn't provided. If you want complete advice, give complete information.

 

In the 11 years I've been on this forum I literally can't count the number of threads every month from people who are returning their greyhound for having bitten someone in the household over exactly the same scenario. Even if the bite is in the course of normal playing, the chances of that dog being adopted again with a human bite on their record is slim to none. For a young dog, it might as well be a life sentence in a kennel. You, as a adult human being, can get over hurt feelings. You're daughter wouldn't so quickly shake off a serious dog bite. Your dog could never outrun being labeled as a biter. *I* care about what would happen to her.

 

If that really sounds harsh to you, you're probably better off not seeking advice from the internet. Since you don't really seem to care about what our opinions are, you should follow NeylasMom's (who is a certified dog trainer) advice: a positive-reinforcement only training class for the whole family. Preferably from someone familiar with the particular training quirks of sighthounds. Your adoption group may have a recommendation for you.

 

Good luck.

[BatterseaBrindl]

This is a bad accident waiting to happen and you don't seem to be doing anything to stop it.

 

Greyhound play is rough, and they regularly draw blood on each other without muzzles. It's one reason greyhounds come home with large scars - puppy play in their home kennels. They use their teeth and nip and bite, jump, bump, and smash into each other so that it resembles more of an MMA match than a play session.

 

Your three year old toddler should NOT be "playing" with this dog at any point unsupervised, and definitely should never be getting the dog aroused enough to nip and bite. The dog should never be allowed to jump on her or knock her down. Never.

 

As an adult, when a dog jumps, you turn away and cross your arms and ignore the dog until it calms down. You do this over and over until the dog learns it's not going to be rewarded with your attention when it jumps. As an adult, when a dog nips and bites in play you do much the same thing, yell "OUCH!" like the dog hurt you and turn away and ignore the dog. As long as you keep engaging the dog you are rewarding her for bad behavior.

 

With a child, it's up to *you* to protect the little human. When you see the dog becoming too excited, remove the child from the activity until the dog calms down. Redirect the dog to playing with a more appropriate toy (or person). Take the dog away from the situation and engage her in another way. The one thing you should not do is pick the child up in your arms. For some reason this just causes the dog to become *more* aroused rather than less. Protect the child from the dog with your body and walk her out of the room. Or snap a leash on the dog and remove her calmly to a less exciting part of the house for a time out. Once she understands that playing that way will result in isolation, she should self-limit her play activity with the child.

 

As said above, a 2 year old greyhound is a puppy in an adult body. They need a lot of mental and physical engagement and exercise to be a well-mannered family member - long walks or jogging, play sessions with a ball or toy, short training sessions througout the day, playing with a lure pole, and doggy day care for socialization and excersize can give you all a break.

 

Here's a Amazon link to a good primer by Patricia McConnell. It's not greyhound specific, but she gives you good training lessons for creating a well-behaved family dog.

Family Friendly Dog Training

https://smile.amazon.com/Family-Friendly-Dog-Training-Program-ebook/dp/B008Z1XYVS/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1501259509&sr=8-6&keywords=Mcconnell+puppy

 

As a bonus, all Patricia McConell books are on sale right now.

 

 

I guess we are to assume Bella is your child?

 

Yeah. She's way too small to be playing with a greyhound.

 

It's not aggression. It's how big dogs play.

 

Stop it now. She could hurt your child, but it won't be her fault.

 

 

Neither Aggression nor Play. its a Warning.

If Echo really wanted to bite, believe me she would have already done so.

The nips are an escalation as a result of no-one bothering to read and respect her body language.

So you have to stop that child clambering all over her and otherwise invading her space. There's no other way of saying this really:

it's not cute, it's not funny. It's just not good parenting and you have to do something about it starting today lest the 3-year old gets a nasty injury and the dog gets reported when the doctors and insurance people have to deal with it.

 

Totally agree with what all these very experienced dog owners have to say.

 

Sorry if the OP is offended, but this large dog ...who is still in his puppy years... should not be alone with any child. And it is up to the parents to make sure that happens. Where were they when the dog jumped up and pinned their daughter to the ground?

 

Please muzzle your hound when she is with your daughter.

 

You need to put some time and effort into this dog.

She has only been with your for 2 months and already you have experienced several issues with jumping and nipping. Please take some classes with her!

 

Edited to say that I would give the same advice for any breed of dog. Large or small.

Edited July 29, 2017 by BatterseaBrindl

[Guest PackMomma]

I also have a greyhound that has been in my home for two months now.

* She also has quite a bit of "puppy" in her at 2 years old and is quite energetic in her play.

* I have 4 older children who have been around animals all their lives.

 

One thing that I think is helpful is to think of what behaviors are acceptable to you in the long term and to start good habits from the beginning and then make sure the dog has the opportunity to be successful and not place the dog up in a situation that she has a chance to "fail".

 

For me my first thought is that when your three year old is out in the yard with the dog and the dog has the potential to be rambunctious that you are there right behind your daughter to manage any behavior with your authority. Then when the dog is well mannered and not jumping and nipping you can have plenty of treats on hand to allow the association that the tiny human+good manners- yummy treats, as your dog begins to learn how to approach your daughter more calmly then you can slowly increase your distance.

 

I know my dog is most excitable right after she gets out of her crate and right before she knows it is a meal time, I am more cautious about the kids handling her right then and I know that after a few minutes she gets that energy out and is much easier to handle so learning your dog, and what her triggers are, and how to work with the behaviors for everyone's safety will be a huge benefit to all of you. It may be that when approaching your back yard your daughter has to wait until the dog calms down before entering, or an adult enters the area first greets the dog and calms her down to behave to allow your child to enter safely. You will see what works for you. I would highly recommend that you make sure that the dog does not have the opportunity to nip at your daughter though so that you will avoid heartbreak later in the form of a bad habit that has formed or from rough play that crosses the line and goes too far.

 

I second the idea mentioned above of training with the right trainer we use treats, repetition and positive reinforcement so our household dogs obey because they love us and it is a fun game, not because of punishment or fear. A good trainer will work with you and your dog and your family. We have even had a trainer come to the house to work with the kids to teach them how to work with our dogs.

 

Hopefully this is helpful

[Guest Echogrey]

Thanks for all the replies. I see that not enough info about our situation was provided. Our grey had NEVER even attempted to jump at our child until Friday. We keep the muzzle on Echo much of the time, mainly when she is around Bella. We follow the guidelines for child-greyhound interaction laid out by our adoption agency. We never leave our child alone with the dog. We won't even let Bella touch the dog unless we are right there with her. Yes, Echo has nipped. She does it to is too and we are working to correct that habit. Friday was an odd incident. Echo was not muzzled because it was just her and I in the yard. She was looking for Bella, who was out on the road with her grandfather. I did not notice them come into the gate until Echo had run toward her and knockes her down.

We do allow Bella to give Echo treats and help with her feedings. We Also have her read to her and talk to her a lot. We need to get Echo enrolled in training. I am currently searching for a trainer who will come to our home and work with the entire family.

I do appreciate everyone's comments. We are new at this, and just want to make this work and keep our daughter and the grey safe and happy.

[sobesmom]

Ok let's look at this from a different perspective. Perhaps to Echo, Bella is a playmate and/or toy. Understandable.

 

So - time to change Bella's status in the pecking order, and make her a "Human" in Echo's eyes. Somebody higher than her in the pack, not a litter-mate that she can roll around with. You can do this by making Bella a caregiver to Echo. 3-year-old's, if I remember correctly, LOVE to have IMPORTANT JOBS. Bella can start by feeding Echo. Maybe get Echo to do a simple command, like "look at me" before giving her the food, so that Bella is in control. Even teaching Echo "look at me" can be Bella's job. (with help, of course). Maybe even have her stand on a stool while doing it, so she's physically "bigger". You'll have to explain that this is a "very important job". Bella will gain confidence that she is the "boss" and "teacher" of Echo, and Echo will learn the same. That Bella is a human to be followed and respected. You can also let Bella walk Echo on- leash. Meaning, the grown-up holds the end of the leash, Bella, holds it mid-way and walks beside the dog for the "appearance" of her being in control. She can tell Echo "stop" and "go" and "good girl!". Only a few minutes at a time for any of these things, or they'll both loose focus. Get one good response, praise them both, and call it a day. Short, positive lessons.

 

It would also be good if Bella knows that she's allowed to put on a "mommy face" (sorry mom, but you know what I mean), and sternly say "Echo - NO NO" when Echo gets rowdy.

 

The're both toddlers. Simple, small lessons. Lots of praise, and cookies!

 

Best of luck to you! It sounds like you really want to do the right thing for your family, and your dog. I think it's great that you reached out for advice. We ALL need help. I've used GT as a resource for many years. A piece of unsolicited advice - use a strainer, like you do for pasta, when you read responses. Let some hang in there and have value, let some slide right through and rinse away, and let some get stuck half-way through and make you think a bit about what to do with them - keep or toss? Regardless, it's YOUR strainer to shake out, and make a meal with.