That Dreaded Question Again. Is It His Time?

[greytluck]

For the second time in two days I've found Wally split legged on the ground unable to get up. He's nearing 13 and has LS, his hind end is getting weaker all the time.

 

The night before last I woke to hear a ruckus downstairs, ran down to find Wally had fallen off his bed and was struggling to get upon his feet. I picked him up and he he went back on his bed to sleep the rest of the night.

Today I was out for around 4 hours. I got home to find Wally again had fallen this time in the hallway. There are cuts all over his back legs and blood smeared on the floor, a lot of it already dry. I picked him up but he wouldn't right his back legs and was putting his feet down on the tops of his paws. I had to carry him to his bed but he got back up 10 minutes later and was walking fine and went out to pee.

 

I know he must have been down for awhile today and I feel absolutely sick about it. Up until today I never even once considered it might be his time to leave us. He loves his food, loves his toys, still runs like a maniac in the yard. He enjoys cuddles and otherwise in pretty good health for his age. He's a happy dog.

 

We already have mats and runners on the tile and hard wood floors. There were rubber backed mats where he slipped today. One was crumpled up underneath him.

 

This accident may never happen again but I don't know if I can handle coming home to him in so much distress again. I might being over reacting because it just happened but I need to know what others would do. How is one to know what's right. I know he's not giving me any indication he's ready. I just don't know what to do.

[Time4ANap]

I'm sorry you are going through this. Not sure that any of us can answer for sure, but if you have an option for him to not be alone while you are gone or at work, it seems to be time to put that option in place. Like you, I'd be afraid of further injury if no one is with him.

 

I hope you have lots more time with your boy. Please give him some ear rubs from me.

[Houndtime]

It is very hard to know when the time is "exactly" right. Our vet, in NJ, said better a day too early than one day too late.

 

When Paulie was almost 13, he began to stumble, also. He was eating , playing a little, and sleeping a lot. He was so handsome. He could not do the stairs anymore, at all. When he began leaking in his sleep and began with some fecal incontinence, I know he felt shame or embarrassment.

 

He raced until he was 4-1/2. He had a proud history and background. I couldn't see him reduced to a sad, pitiful dog.

 

That is when I made the decision.

[seeh2o]

I understand what you're going through first hand. Doodles is almost 14, her back end is weak, too. Her back end has gone down a few times lately, two times involving a step (different locations...I was nearby). I have runners and rugs in the house as well. I also have a nanny cam that I monitor closely when I'm at work. A few weeks ago I received a notification that there was a loud noise in the house. I checked the cam and she was laying down in front of her bed on the carpet (it's an indoor/outdoor carpet, not much of a nap) and her legs were splayed and she was making a terrible noise. I couldn't reach my neighbor to run over and help her, so I left work, jumped in my car and ran home. By the time I got home, she had pushed herself around and, after I got home, but before I could physically reach her, she stood up on her own. So, I did two things, I made an appointment with her vet for a chiropractic/cold laser/acupuncture visit and I went shopping for a large throw rug with lots of nap to it. In the afternoon, she likes to lay in front of her bed and try to peek out the crack at the bottom of the door to see if I'm walking up to the door...she learned that trick from her littermate, Carl. The new rug with a thick plush nap goes down in front of her bed before I go to work. So far, it has performed exactly as I had hoped.

 

Anyway, I've had similar thoughts, but Doodles is no where near to leaving me...she's still sassy, demanding, plays with her toy a few seconds at a time...she just has a wonky back end. So far it has not had any real impact on the quality of her life, she's not having an incontinence accidents. I admit that I have wondered if her back end would be "it". But not yet. I do agree with the old chestnut, "better a day too soon than a minute too late". I've lived through both with my beloved dogs, my moment too late will always haunt me to the rest of my days.

 

If it is within your means, getting a nanny cam is a true godsend. With an older or sick dog, I would not be without one...it really has helped tremendously. I have a Piper NV (with night vision), Canary (comes with night vision) looks good, too. Piper does not have a service contract, with Canary you can have one or not...it will record up to 12 hours for free. Piper records up to 1,000 35 second video clips. You can watch both of them live and both have speakers so if you want to talk to your dogs (or guests) you can speak and hear through the app on your smartphone.

 

Best of luck to you and Wally.

Edited December 5, 2016 by seeh2o

[XTRAWLD]

I've had Kasey go down like that on our walks, and sometimes in front of me in the house. I came home once to him like that, but I know it was only for mere moments as I was bringing in groceries. It just pained me. I know how you are feeling. He became so weak I felt so helpless for him. I won't forget that his weakness coupled with his LS made getting up so difficult, that's when he struggled so badly and ripped out his dew claw. He was down, and panicking and did everything he could to get up, and I saw this on my webcam and sped home. Get up he did, but left an absolutely bloody mess and a trip to ER, all this while undergoing chemo with low platelet count.

 

Are you able to set up a webcam to watch him? Can you up his gabapentin or give it to him more often? I found that often helped Kasey keep his legs under him.

 

I know this is such a hard time....and hard decision.

Edited December 5, 2016 by XTRAWLD

[greytluck]

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm so sorry so many of you have faced this same problem.

 

I feel so bad for Wally, he has the spirit of a young dog trapped in an old body.

 

I think I'm going to dig the crate out of the basement and see if he will use it. He hasn't been in a crate in 7 years but maybe if I make it soft and inviting enough he will sleep in it willingly, then I can just shut him in if we leave.

 

He's not actually alone all that often. Either my DH or Mom are usually home as they watch my 3 year old during the day when I'm at work.

 

Does anyone know if I can increase his gabapentin tonight? He's currently on 300mg 2x daily. He's whining a lot tonight and is very restless. I assume he's hurting. I can't give him metacam as his stomach won't tolerate it and I don't have anything else in the house.

[Hubcitypam]

{{{{hugs}}}}
The second time Bella splayed out in the kitchen floor and couldn't get up I decided it was time.
Sorry - can't help you on gabapentin dosage but I am also a proponent of a day too soon rather than a day too late..in Bella's case I've beaten myself up a million times for being a day too late.

[greysmom]

Yes, you can up his gabapentin. Dr Couto recommends dosing every 6-8 hours, so you can add in another dosing time per day, at 300mg if he tolerates it. Toni has been on 300mgs x 3 for over a year now and she's fine with it. If you have the 100mg pills he might be better with increasing it incrementally. When you contact your vet about the increase, ask for a pain med too - tramadol or codeine sulfate is what we use - it might help him be more comfortable.

 

It's hard when their bodies give out long before their spirit has. {{{HUGS}}}

[MandysMom]

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm so sorry so many of you have faced this same problem.

 

I feel so bad for Wally, he has the spirit of a young dog trapped in an old body.

 

I think I'm going to dig the crate out of the basement and see if he will use it. He hasn't been in a crate in 7 years but maybe if I make it soft and inviting enough he will sleep in it willingly, then I can just shut him in if we leave.

 

He's not actually alone all that often. Either my DH or Mom are usually home as they watch my 3 year old during the day when I'm at work.

 

Does anyone know if I can increase his gabapentin tonight? He's currently on 300mg 2x daily. He's whining a lot tonight and is very restless. I assume he's hurting. I can't give him metacam as his stomach won't tolerate it and I don't have anything else in the house.

 

I've been told Gabapentin is best tolerated in a 3x a day dosage. The dosing range is pretty wide: 1.5 - 5 mg per pound per day (broken up into 2 - 3 doses). A good friend's dog has been struggling with backend nerve issues for a while and splitting the Gabapentin into three daily doses has made a big difference.

 

I'm so sorry you are going through this. Hugs to Wally.

[seeh2o]

Good idea about the crate. How about an xpen?

 

What is the gabapentin used for in this situation? Doodles is not a stoic girl and does not seem to be in any pain. Does it decrease the hind end weakness?

[TwiggysMom]

I'm facing a similar situation. Twiggy's vet has mentioned something I heard about before: https://www.toegrips.com/ I also heard about these paw grips (which were not mentioned by her vet) http://pupgearcorporation.com/products/Paw-Pads

 

I would be very interested in hearing anyone's experience/knowledge about these items.

 

I tried the Woodrow Wear greyhound socks, but Twiggy just ate them, so they were a no-go for her, but may work well for others.

 

Also, I've heard great things about the Help Em Up harness, http://helpemup.com/ so that may be worth looking into also. Unfortunately, Twiggy is far too stubbornly independent to stand for something like that, & harnesses don't work well on a front-leg amputee anyway.

 

At risk of further hijacking your thread, if anyone has any ideas that might work for Twiggy, I'd love to hear them! I'm not sure it is fair to try to put her through the icy winter with these issues that have developed in the past couple weeks. (I was just about to launch a thread on this subject for Twiggy, but Wally's situation is so similar, it seems unnecessary to have two going at the same time, I'm sorry for glomming on to Wally's thread!!!)

[Brandiandwe]

I.... made the call 'early' for Benny. It could have been done later, but I wanted him to go when we chose, to control the time and allow him to be pain and fear free. I still cry about it. But I would probably make this call sooner rather than later.

[XTRAWLD]

A crate is a good idea actually, while that restricts his movement though what if he falls when in it? Just trying to think if he'd be more stuck?

 

Yes, you can go upon the dose if hes only 600 a day. We started at 1000mg a day and went down to a dose we felt was comfortable which was 300x2 a day, so you have room. Its a drug that has a great versatile range.

 

seeho2 - the easiest way to explain gaba is that it basically helps to send a signal to the brain to tell the legs to stand up. LS is caused by compression of a nerve in the spine so signal to "stand" doesn't get through.

 

Twiggysmom - I have seen rubber tips on nails being used to afford extra grip on the floors but do not have any experience with them. I also had a help me harness which was useful at times but I didn't leave it on him 24/7.

Edited December 5, 2016 by XTRAWLD

[Hubcitypam]

Isn't there some (the name escapes me) that bank tellers used to use on their fingers which is often relabeled and sold as something like "sticky paws'? Sorry...I'm sort of fried tonight.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Hubcitypam

[seeh2o]

Twiggysmom, I have a Help'em Up harness for Doodles, I got it when she had an FCE 2 years ago (yesterday). I still use the front half of it when she rides in the car, I use the chest handle when lifting her out of the car. It was a godsend when she had the FCE.

 

XTRAWLD, is there any benefit to using gabapentin for dogs without LS? Just curious, I'll ask my vet, too.

[Hubcitypam]

Sort of off topic but a couple of years ago I went to a psychiatrist and was asked "Are you talking any drugs not prescribed to you?" I answered yes. It was the dogs gaberpentin. It helped the neuropathy (sp) in my feet immensely. They laughed and gave me my own script. .In humans the dose is 900 mg a day. It not only worked wonders on the feeling in my feet but it also works off label on bi polar. Gabapentian and Ativan are my best friends.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Hubcitypam

[XTRAWLD]

Seeho - because it deals with nerves, its best for neurological conditions. I tried it for Ryder and his limping but I am on the fence if it worked for him at the time. Its a versitile and safe drug but I'm not sure if it would work in your case. Asking the vet about it never hurts and maybe they will send you home with some to just try. Is she going down due to muscle loss?

 

No slip floor tips on this thread:

 

http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/318685-fear-of-slippery-floors/?fromsearch=1

Edited December 5, 2016 by XTRAWLD

[3greytjoys]

Similar situation here with a mid-teen hound (but she's not left alone). Agree with a human at home whenever possible, and nanny cam otherwise. I'd suggest isolating Wally in his most used, comfortable room with a baby-gate. If it doesn't already have wall-to wall carpet, borrow or buy the largest textured area rug you can find to fit that whole room. Carpet stores might have used scrap carpet from a recent install.

 

Our LS hound needs to stand, walk around, and re-position periodically. (Can help relieve nerve pressure.) Thinking a crate might be a little too confining(?) for Wally, and more painful forcing him to stay in one position too long. I would not recommend an ex-pen in this case just because he could accidentally push it over, or collapse it onto himself while trying to stand up. I'm unclear how far off the ground his bed sits, but it helps to arrange floor beds in a semi-confined corner space, so when attempting to stand up, he can press his legs against a wall, or heavy sofa, if sofa is built solidly to floor level. (A wadded blanket blocks off the crevice under our sofa to prevent hound's paws from sliding under sofa.)

 

Walk-a-bout medical assistance harnesses can be helpful for hounds with LS:"Airlift One" back-end harness works for males. (We have the "original" back-end harness for females.): http://www.walkaboutharnesses.com/collections/walkabout-harnesses

(They have amputee slings too.)

 

I'm so sorry Wally is having LS difficulty. He's probably much more sore now from his two previous falls. Hope the Gabapentin helps.

[palmettobug]

Isn't there some (the name escapes me) that bank tellers used to use on their fingers which is often relabeled and sold as something like "sticky paws'? Sorry...I'm sort of fried tonight.

 

Sort-Quick. It's pink in the container.

[seeh2o]

Seeho - because it deals with nerves, its best for neurological conditions. I tried it for Ryder and his limping but I am on the fence if it worked for him at the time. Its a versitile and safe drug but I'm not sure if it would work in your case. Asking the vet about it never hurts and maybe they will send you home with some to just try. Is she going down due to muscle loss?

 

No slip floor tips on this thread:

 

http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/318685-fear-of-slippery-floors/?fromsearch=1

Yeah, it doesn't seem neurological, more like old age muscle loss. She did have that FCE 2 years ago, though, so I thought maybe it was residual from that. I'll talk to the vet, it couldn't hurt to ask.

 

One more Q, though...my friend's grey has LP, he's about the same age as Doo. He has hind end weakness, but very different than Doodles. He can't stand for long without his back end sinking, Doo can stand for quite a long time without ever sinking. His back end looks like that of an AKC GSD. I'm wondering if he might be a candidate for gabapentin.

[3greytjoys]

Assuming Wally didn't further damage his spine or legs during his falls, in time, he may fully recover to his previous mobility. Our elder hound had a couple of slides this year (when I was nearby to help). She eventually recovered and retained her normal mobility thereafter. She's still independent, mobile, and playfully trot-runs briefly in the garden. The medical assistance harness (post #18) has been a huge help during recovery periods, and I carry it separately during outings and vet visits as a priceless(!) safety net.

 

 

Seeh2o: IMO, Gabapentin could be helpful enough for your friend to discuss with a vet. Works for LP and LS hounds, as both involve the nervous system. A couple of our hounds have been on it successfully fairly long-term. It likely will not prevent the hound's hind-end from sinking but should reduce pain levels. Our vet starts dogs on a low end dosage for body-drug adjustment, and leaves room for dosage to be increased if/when pain worsens.

[XTRAWLD]

If the back end sinks, gaba can help. Encourage your friend to go get some.

 

An interesting test: lift the tail and lightly drag the end of a pen on the anus. You should see a flicker or a reaction. If there isn't one, or one side is reacting and not the other, the back end nerves have been compromised.

[greytluck]

Wally has been quite sore since his fall so I called his vet to increase the gabapentin. He said he was already at the high end of dosing and I should give him one regular Tylenol every 8 hours instead. Anyone heard of this? I always thought Tylenol was dangerous for dogs.

[palmettobug]

It's deadly for cats, but too much can damage anyone's liver. Usually the vets use COX-2 inhibitors or NSAIDs, never heard of giving a dog Tylenol!

[greysmom]

I think your vet is incorrect. As I said before, Toni has been on 300mgs 3 times a day for months with no issues. And many osteo dogs go much higher. Gabapentin is really extremely safe for most dogs with few side effects other than a bit of lethargy as they adjust to a higher dosage. And Dr Couto recommends dosing every 6 hours as greyhounds metabolize it faster than other breeds.

 

Tylenol is safe for dogs (NOT cats), and can be used as a pain reliever.

 

As you're trying to manage him towards the end of his life, IMO, you need to do whatever you can (up to a certain point) to maintain his quality of life without worrying too much about long term side effects - control pain, manage mobility, encourage eating.

 

{{{HUGS}}}