Fearful To The Extreme - August 18, 2015 Pupdate Post #36

[duncan41]

Barkley is 11 years old and has been with us for 7 months. Surrendered thru no fault of his own, he is deteriorating into a fearful mess. He has had some very odd habits from day 1 but over the past month, he has deteriorated to the point where he doesn't want to leave the confines of the house.

 

He was always an only dog, owned by an older couple in a planned community that did not allow fences. From his behavior with us, it is clear that he was only walked around the perimeter of the lot on which his home sat. It took him about 6 weeks to break out into a gallop in our small yard!

He has been oblivious to Fuzz, our 11 year old whom we have had since she was 2 years old and by oblivious I mean that he has walked over her, on her and has tried to lay down on her on one of the two identical beds! When he is around other greyhounds, he insulates himself as if to pretend that he is alone. He has been exposed to the same two Greyhounds many times in the past 7 months but has never acknowledged their presence.

 

I walk the dogs in the dark, morning and late night . DH walks them at noon and after dinner. The first fear response occurred during a noon walk. The two dogs and DH usually walk out the door from the house, through the garage, down the driveway and off they go. Upon returning, the reverse pattern, up the driveway, through the garage and into the house. One day, Barkley refused to walk back into the garage and by "refused", I mean screaming, and pulling away with a wild, crazed look in his eyes and acting as if his life depended on getting away! He refused to walk into the garage for a week, then just as suddenly, he resumed the old pattern with no reaction at all.

 

The second incident was during the last walk of the night. There is a street light on the easement at the end of our lot line. 99.9% of the time, Fuzz will walk to the left of the light post, looking for fish that the osprey drop, before continuing on across the street. One night about 3 weeks ago, Fuzz walked to the right of the light post and Barkley had a total meltdown - screaming, pulling back, acting as if he was going to die! I hadn't even put any tension on the leash - just took one step and said, "Ok, let's go!" just as I do all the time.

 

The third incident was truly traumatizing for him. 10 days ago, Barkley and DH became caught in his leash while walking down the driveway. They both fell with Barkley frantically, hysterically screaming while trying to stand up. Thank goodness neither one was injured! But since then Barkley wants nothing to do with the leash, and doesn't want to leave the house. Treats worked for a while to entice him to go out in the backyard, then cheese, then liver brownies, but today as of lunchtime, he refused to leave the house for DH. He peed on a hospital bed pad 3 times (thank heavens for small favors), pooped three times, ate part of that and walked in it, smearing it all over the floors while DH was outside working around the house.

 

Barkley has been vetted 4 times in the past year and after getting rid of hook and giardia, have cleared up his mis-diagnosed "colitis", switched his food to raw and have given him the best retirement that we are able to give. Except for the "colitis" and losing 11 teeth in the past year, Barkley is in very good health on paper and appears to be much younger than his 11 years.

 

A training company that has worked with another Greyhound group near us for over 20 years is sending a representative out to the house Tuesday afternoon. I don't know what we are going to do until then. We are playing soothing music, diffusing essential oils, and giving massages to maintain contact and hoping to regain his trust. Help, please! Barkley is miserable and it is breaking our hearts!

Edited August 19, 2015 by duncan41

[XTRAWLD]

My goodness. He sounds like he needs lots and lots of love and TLC!

 

To determine this sudden fearfulness is difficult. He's been with you for 7 months, so why is it happening now? I wonder since he's been an only dog and had a small perimeter walk, how socialized he is with other dogs and the outside world. No wonder so many things are out to get him! He's never seen or understood any of it or had to deal with it before.

 

Have you tried walking him solo?

 

I'm sure others will chime in, but lots of scritches! Such a change to such a lad.

[greysmom]

It sounds like the poor boy has never been socialized at all, and might be a borderline spook. I'm surprised your vet hasn't suggested a short course of anti anxiety meds to help him adjust. It could also be the beginnings of some aging issues - pain, dementia, confusion.

 

Make sure this trainer is only using positivd reinforcement techniques. This boy doesn't need any harsh techniques.

 

Patience and more patience. Don't try and expand his world beyong what he can handle in the meantime.

[Hawthorn]

I have a strong suspicion that Barkley may have a magnesium insufficiency. Magnesium has a very calming effect on the nervous system and is depleted by stress; insufficiency is very common and can cause nervousness, confusion and anxiety disorders etc.

[FiveRoooooers]

I'm glad that neither DH nor Barkley were physically injured during the leash entanglement. That Barkley doesn't seem to acknowledge your other dogs and tried to get onto Fuzz's bed with her in it suggests that he may have never been socialized. It also sounds as tho he lived a quite solitary life with little stimulation. Now, living in a home that is "alive" he is almost like a scared hound who has just retired from the track and doesn't know about all the things that young hounds have to learn. I would get some current labs to compare to the most recent you have to see if/what has changed, check the magnesium per Hawthorn's suggestion, and ask about anti-anxiety meds as greysmom suggests. I would also have a thorough eye exam performed, as diminished eye sight can be very frightening to a hound, especially to one who lived a previously sheltered life and had all of his house corners memorized. If this is not a behavioral concern, it may be dementia setting in or something else in Barkley's brain.

 

Bless you for bringing in this old boy in the first place and for going the extra miles with him. i am keeping all of you in my thoughts. Good luck with your old fella.

[duncan41]

The extreme behavior is less than 30 days old. We recognized Barkley's quirks right from the start and eased him into all new activities and if he displayed the slightest bit of anxiety, we could make adjustments to encourage a positive outcome.

He was making some real progress when the irrational fears began for absolutely no reason, no trigger, no connection to an event.

Can't take him anywhere to be checked out - he freaks out the minute we attempt to guide him with the leash. He would be perfectly happy to live out his days in the house, never going outside again, peeing and pooping where ever and when ever the need strikes. Is that a reasonable/rational way to live?

What anti-anxiety meds work best with these guys? How many med changes did it take before the right one was found? Is there special dosing considerations for these guys like there are with other meds?

How much magnesium would be a good starting dose? Barkley weighs 78 pounds.

 

Thank you for your input! Please chime in with any/all suggestions!

[Hawthorn]

How much magnesium would be a good starting dose? Barkley weighs 78 pounds.

 

Magnesium is a very safe supplement, but you could get problems if you gave a high dose over a long period. Whilst I cannot advise you how much to give Barkley, I can say that if he were mine I would give him 100mg three times daily for 5 days (or 100mg twice daily for 8 days), then reduce to 100mg daily for life. Or you could just start out by giving him 100mg daily (divided into two doses) if you feel more comfortable with this, but then it would be longer before you saw any improvement. If you give him more than he needs, he may get the runs.

 

I would also consider trying Zylkene (at the highest dose it states on the label) before resorting to the more heavy duty pharmaceutical drugs, but that's just my preference.

[philospher77]

With this being a sudden-onset situation in an 11-year-old dog, you really NEED to get a vet to look at the situation and rule out physical causes. I know that it may be stressful to do that, but I would rather deal with a one-time situation than to try treating this behaviorally for weeks or months and then learn that there is an underlying medical issue that is causing it. Your vet may be able to recommend someone who could come to your house to see your dog and determine if it appears to be medical or not, if they don't do house calls themselves.

[Feisty49]

I'm not one to jump at drugs either, but IMO your question, "He would be perfectly happy to live out his days in the house, never going outside again, peeing and pooping where ever and when ever the need strikes. Is that a reasonable/rational way to live?" says it all. If other aides don't help, it appears you will have to go the drug route in an effort to give him a reasonable life.

[FiveRoooooers]

Perhaps your vet can send a tech to the house to draw blood. I'd feel much better having llabs done before starting any rx. If I am reading it correctly, the freak out behavior is triggered by the leash. Can you get a harness onto Barkley and let him wear it around the house to get acclimated? I might also, in conjunction with getting a harness on him, leave some leashes laying around in several different places, just leave them laying/hanging around so he sees them.

[duncan41]

Thanks, Jan, Marla, Rebecca, Hawthorn and Chris!

 

The leashes and the harness have been out to see, sniff and taste if necessary for a couple of weeks, I am not a big fan of putting the leash on and having any dog drag it around, but I did do it one evening. Barkley was suspicious and annoyed, but eventually laid down and went to sleep. The flight/fright reaction only happens when the leash is used for its intended purpose; to lead. But that still doesn't explain the garage incident and the light post incident. One during the day and one at night. One with DH and one with me.

 

Google searches can be a huge help or a little dangerous and for me, very frustrating when it comes to things like "magnesium deficiency in dogs". The literature all points to symptoms of muscle weakness, pain and/or control issues. Cardiac problems are mentioned second most often and depression is down the list. Is that not the case with Greyhounds?

 

I contacted my Vet by email this morning. She does make house calls, so it's only a matter of when she can make it. Cross your fingers that it's today or tomorrow.

 

Can we keep this conversation going? Your ideas and input are helping me organize my thoughts. Thank you so much!

[Hawthorn]

I doubt that there have been any studies into magnesium insufficiency in greyhounds, but I could be wrong. In humans, at least in the alternative medicine field, magnesium is well known for its calming and anti-anxiety effects but talk to someone in the conventional field and they probably won't know anything about it. Most of what I know about magnesium has come from holistic doctors and nutritionists over the last few years, and also from my dogs' holistic vet. The only other thing I can tell you which may help is that my dogs are both on 100mg per day of magnesium as a maintenance dose (increased at times of stress), with the complete approval of their holistic vet, and have been for several years now. I suppose having used magnesium for several years now for myself and my dogs I feel very comfortable with it, but can completely understand your doubts.

 

To me, it seems that Barkley has been under an extreme amount of cumulative stress these last few months (including his health issues and vet visits) and this makes it almost certain that he is low in magnesium, as magnesium is lost from the body very easily during stress. Whether or not magnesium insufficiency is contributing to his problems or not you would really only know by giving him some and seeing if it helps. Honestly, I would have absolutely no hesitation at all in giving him 100mg per day because even if it didn't help with his issues it isn't going to do any harm, even long term. The only thing that would make me hesitate is if he is getting any prescription meds that the magnesium might interfere with in some way, and in that event I would check with my vet. (My vet would then tell me that my dog doesn't need any magnesium, so I would then ask my holistic vet who would say it's fine. )

 

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

[JJNg]

I agree that a sudden behavior change in an older dog warrants a full medical workup, as there is likely an underlying cause. Please keep us posted.

I've never heard of magnesium deficiency being a primary cause of behavior problems in dogs. And I'm also not aware that it's common, or that it is caused by stress. Just because I'm not familiar with it doesn't mean it isn't true, though, and I tried to do some research and can't find anything that refers to this. Hawthorn, can you provide some references? Even if not specific to greyhounds, is there anything relating to dogs?

 

Magnesium deficiency is caused by inadequate intake (unlikely in any dog eating a commercial kibble), or inappropriate absorption or loss, but those usually only happen with other significant underlying diseases. And from what I can find, it is suspected that a lot of people don't consume adequate amounts of magnesium, but commercial dog foods have minimum requirements for magnesium content, so I'd be concerned that giving it to a dog eating kibble would risk over-supplementing.

[FiveRoooooers]

Excellent that your vet will come to the house for you, that is huge! I hope that she will be able to do a good thorough exam, including the eyes, ears, everything, including the labs.

 

New leash and/or collar from those used prior to the freaking otu?

 

With the incidents involving the garage, was the garage dark or was it dusk or anything less than broad daylight at any of those times? Same with the light post, was it on?

 

Is there any sort of electrical "thing" that could have been "charging" - I don't know, making some sort of humming or snapping sound that was subtle enough that Barkley could have heard it or FELT it? Really trying to picture the scene and come up with something, but sometimes that how stuff puzzles itself out.

[greysmom]

You might see if there is a accupuncturist in your area that makes housecalls. It can be very useful in cases involving stress and seniors.

 

There are lots of things you can try that are not drugs per se - Rescue Remedy, L-Theanine, Magnesium (as mentioned), and other holistic remedies. I would also get a DAP diffuser AND a collar (from PetSmart or Amazon) just so that he has a good supply getting to him. Though I think he may be beyond the scope of holistic medications at this point and need something more direct.

 

I hesitate to suggest it because it always causes opinion fights, but you also might ask for a complete thyroid panel to be done with the other bloodwork. An out-of-whack thyroid *could* be contributing to his symptoms.

[duncan41]

My Vet is holistic and she recommended magnesium and Valerian. (Jennifer, there are consistent reference to depression in the literature that I found.). Oh, and does it matter that Barkley is raw fed? I added Rescue Remedy this evening. Will be picking up a Chinese herb Monday morning. She also recommended a dog behaviorist that she has worked with for a few years.

 

Jan, the garage incident happened in broad daylight and the street light is very bright and works fine. We live on the east coast of FL, most utility lines are underground so no overt exposure to EMFs. Our house and neighborhood are very quiet and DH and I are old creatures of habit, all of which has had a positive effect on every animal that has adopted us. This is our second experience with a dog who was never socialized. Anna almost never left her house or yard in 6 years, but in the end, she took to walks like a duck to water. She had other quirks, but nothing like Barkley's.

Hawthorne, I totally agree with your conclusion regarding the cumulative stress. The challenge is to find a stress buster for a boy who is afraid of the world.

 

Chris, I have been on both sides of the hypothyroid issue with a couple of dogs, one who was treated, one who was not although, behavior was not the driving force. I tend to not treat unless there are clinical symptoms. I remember hearing Dr. Couto saying that he treats dogs, not blood test results.

 

Thank you and please keep the ideas coming coming!

[Hawthorn]

I am so envious that you have an holistic vet, and one that makes home visits too! There are very few holistic vets in the UK, and usually you need to get a referral from your regular conventional vet before you can see one. I have to travel for over 2 hours to see mine. Hopefully this will change in the future, though.

 

I know very little about raw diets, but I know that meat is generally low in magnesium (but bones would presumably be quite high), so this could be a factor, depending on what else he eats. I found this very interesting website about magnesium and this useful food chart, although it's for people so does not include bones!

 

http://www.magnesiumeducation.com/?id=18

 

The other thing that has occurred to me regarding Barkley is that his cortisol levels could be chronically high due to his flight or fight reaction being constantly triggered. Cortisol can remain elevated for several days once triggered and if he is constantly being triggered then perhaps it never gets the chance to normalise? I have a similar issue with my Sophie, but to a much lesser degree. She is very sensitive and easily stressed, especially by trips to the vet or anything that involves being away from home. The way I deal with this for her is to keep her very quiet for a few days after any stressful event to give her cortisol a chance to normalise, and I also give her Ginkgo Biloba (which helps to normalise excess cortisol) and B vitamins. With Barkley being triggered even whilst at home, though, it's a much more difficult situation.

 

Do please let us know how Barkley gets on.

 

Jennifer: I'm sorry but I do not know of any references for dogs, though when I get time I will see if I can find anything.

[GeorgeofNE]

Just an FYI, my FORMER vet suggested Valerian Root extract for George when he was having what we thought were anxiety issues, and within 30 days his liver enzymes had gone way too high.

 

When I Googled it (she admitted she only suggested it because a human friend of hers uses it to help him sleep) there were hundreds of warnings about people with hepititis never using Valerian root as it's hard on the liver.

 

Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's harmless. Or studied for use in dogs.

 

If he were my dog, I'd get some meds from the vet, give them to him, and haul him in for a complete check up.

[racindog]

Please try some BACH Rescue Remedy & Mimulus. It is generally used for acute cases but I used it daily on Goldie when I got him because he was so spooky. Eventually Goldie got completely over his fears and I was able to discontinue using it for the most part. Anyway one of the things it treats is irrational fears & fears of the unknown. It does work. 4 drops in the am & 4 drops at night to start. Is completely safe. Sounds like his little world(energy) has just gone topsy turvey with all the changes. Rescue Remedy by BACH (do not get a knock off version) often helps them get their little selfs together again The mimulus is administered the same way-it helps give them courage to face what they need to. Personally I would be afraid to try the strong mind changing drugs a vet would prescribe. Besides what they could do who knows what side effects they may have and the llast thing the poor guy needs is more being more mixed up. But thats just me. I am a chemist and I am very leery about putting chemicals into a living thing who's existance depends on thousands of chemical reactions happenning properly without interference. Its an occupational hazard

Edited April 13, 2015 by racindog

[duncan41]

I am using Bach Rescue Remedy and will look into Mimulus.

 

Since my Vet is holistic, she has already told me that Chinese herbs will be her front line of treatment. I have contacted her preferred animal behaviorist and am waiting for a call back.

 

Once the behaviorist visits and he and Dr Donna confer, I believe we will have a plan. If a complete physical is not on the list, I will make it a priority. First we have to get Barkley to a point where he allows touch or trying to examine him or draw blood will be impossible. I can massage him when he's under the influence of Valerian (at half the low end recommended dose of Animals' Apawthecary, or in other words, 1/4 of a full dose), so I'm hoping that with continued massage, he will regain enough trust to let us help him.

 

If you could see him when he's not sleeping, you would never know there was anything wrong. Yesterday he was so happy, he had a huge smile on his face and was actually trying to play!

[racindog]

I am using Bach Rescue Remedy and will look into Mimulus.

 

Since my Vet is holistic, she has already told me that Chinese herbs will be her front line of treatment. I have contacted her preferred animal behaviorist and am waiting for a call back.

 

Once the behaviorist visits and he and Dr Donna confer, I believe we will have a plan. If a complete physical is not on the list, I will make it a priority. First we have to get Barkley to a point where he allows touch or trying to examine him or draw blood will be impossible. I can massage him when he's under the influence of Valerian (at half the low end recommended dose of Animals' Apawthecary, or in other words, 1/4 of a full dose), so I'm hoping that with continued massage, he will regain enough trust to let us help him.

 

If you could see him when he's not sleeping, you would never know there was anything wrong. Yesterday he was so happy, he had a huge smile on his face and was actually trying to play!

So glad you have such a good holistic vet! He's in good hands. One additional thing you might consider if he doesn't begin to improve is esoteric healing from a qualified person. I think he's just reacted to all the change and his energy is scattered and unbalanced and given time and the proper support he'll literally get himself together again. Esoteric healing can really help them to do this as well sometimes. Have to say it worked for one of my dogs. He's a lucky guy to have you! So many people would have just written him off. He could be a diamond in the rough.

[duncan41]

How does one go about finding a "qualified" esoteric healer?

[GreytTerp]

I don't have any suggestions, but just wanted to say that you're awesome for taking in such a senior boy and working with him so patiently to help him through this really rough patch. Sending good thoughts your way.

[racindog]

How does one go about finding a "qualified" esoteric healer?

Might check with Latifa Meena www.animalscantalk.com

My SAR dog, a Belgian Malinois-who are also known as "malinuts" for a reason-was a basket case when I got her. It is really hard to describe how 'out there' she was. Latifa somehow helped her to 'get herself together' with some esoteric healing. Now she is so stable and reliable that she is an excellent SAR working search dog! Tell Latifa Reba's mom (Donna Logsdon also greyhound Slim's mom) told you about it and she will recall the case. It might even be something that can be resolved simply with communicating more effectively with him-he might not even need esoteric healing. I could tell you another amazing story about the behavioral changes that helped my racehorse go from a problem that just wanted to fight to a winner in her first start and all Latifa did was talk to her.

Edited April 14, 2015 by racindog

[3DogNite]

Linda, Do you want Debbie to Scan him? She might find interesting clues energetically in him.

 

FYI - I take magnesium for constipation - you might end up with really loose stool if you give him too much!

 

xoxox to Mr. Barkley and Miss Fuzz!