Help Length Of Time To Treat Sa, Afraid My Dog Would Be Happier In Ano

[Guest sprocketta]

Hoping I can get some perspective from other owners who have dealt with ongoing SA. Friday will be 2 months for me and my dog, Joy. I'm doing everything under the sun to get her through this. She is very vocal when I am gone. It has improved but she still makes a lot of noise.

 

I am receiving pressure from neighbors to stop the noise. Some relatives and friends tell me to give up my dog and others say to keep at it. My biggest concern now is getting her through this. I am starting to wonder if she would be better off in a different home. I do NOT want to give up on her, but I don't want her to suffer and stress all the time either.

 

I live alone and I am gone for 10 hours a day due to work. I bring in a dog walker midday so she never goes more than 4-6 hours without going out. I also do the following: cover the crate, hour long walk before I go to work, stuffed kong in the crate, large rawhide to chew in the crate, t shirt with my scent in the crate, tv on, DAP diffuser, thundershirt, no longer let her sleep on my bed, the dog gets no unearned affection, I do not make a big deal out of leaving/arriving, working on obedience training to build confidence, working with a trainer that knows greyhounds to deal with this, changed my behavior to be a strong leader for her, give her ltheanine 100 mg 2x day, give her clomipramine 50mg 2x day and I record her while gone using a voice recorder and check in on her using my webcam. Did Imention LOTS of alone training as well on the weekends? We have been working on this for 5 weeks. She IS improving and I see a difference in her, she is far less clingy and has some quiet periods while I'm gone.

 

I cannot possibly go through all the audio footage to know how long she makes noise in the afternoon and I can't get all the info from neighbors . She tends to start with small whines and work herself up to full on howling and barking.

 

I am just concerned that mine is the wrong home for her. A second dog is not an option for me, both in my building and more so financially. My neighbors and landlord are trying to be nice so I do not feel moving is a good option since it would just be another apartment with more neighbors who might complain immediately. I cannot afford to rent a house.

 

For those who will ask, I have already tried leaving her out of the crate and babygating her into a room and the sound level ratched up to far worse and then she calmed down when Imoved her back to the crate. Daily daycare is not an option financially and the closest daycare very nicely suggested I not bring her back after a trial day because she growled and snapped at dogs several times when they got in her space while she was laying down.

 

I've done everything people here have suggested as well as working with the vet and the trainer. Can someone who has gone through this give me a realistic assessment of time to get her over the hump or if she would be better off in a multidog house or with someone who is home more often? I want what is best for her and myself.

[Time4ANap]

Just curious if she was able to come and go freely to the crate when you tried leaving her out. Sometimes the crate is a safe space, and leaving the door open so the hound can come and go at will can help. Other with SA hounds will chime in.

 

Rocket used to whine and howl when we were gone until we let him have the run of the house, then he was fine. Even after 4 years we still have the crate setup with the door open. He mostly uses it to tan when when the sun comes around to that window now, but it's there if he wants to go in for any reason.

 

Good luck.

[a_daerr]

No advice, just positive thoughts.

It's a hard decision to make. Sounds like you've done everything possible... I wouldn't blame you if you decided to rehome.

[Guest IrskasMom]

I have no Advice either. Maybe she would do better with another Hound/ Dog there. Keeping my Fingers crossed for a good Outcome.

[Guest karilynn]

Well, I will tell you my own personal story of what I've been through with SA.

 

November of 2011 I adopted my first greyhound. Didn't have much of a clue as to what I was doing, probably ended up doing a little too much babying, not enough structure. I believe he became "pack leader" through my own carelessness and did not like when I left for work because he then had no pack to lead and would panic. I, like you, live in an apartment. And lo and behold, complaints started rolling in about my dog howling while I was gone at work. I was really surprised and wanted to gauge how bad it was so I set up a webcam and recorded him. It was pretty bad. It was hours and hours of howling. LOUD howling, like deafening. I was SHOCKED. I started to do a lot of research on separation anxiety. I tried just about everything mentioned aside from medication and that is only because I never made it to that point. My neighbors and landlord, were unfortunately not as understanding as yours. I brought my dog over to my neighbors apartment who were doing the majority of complaining and they were not nice about any of it. The wife worked from home and she was unable to focus. The husband was losing sleep. They didn't care about my dog. They didn't care about his adjustment. They surely didn't care about me and the fact that my dog needed time. They honestly wanted my dog gone or me evicted. I actually CRIED in front of these people. I was seriously devastated. I had 2 options: move or return my dog. If I moved, I'd have to break my lease and I would owe my apartment complex well over 2,000 dollars - money I did not have. And with the hardest decision I've ever made in my life, I returned him back to the group in January of 2012. It was absolutely awful and I cried for days. I felt like I had failed not only him, but myself.

 

It took a lot of time for me to realize that I just was not the right home for him. It wasn't a good fit. He wasn't happy. He needed another dog or someone who was home a lot more often. He needed a home that I could not give him. He needed an owner with more experience. I blamed myself for a long time and I was truly depressed over the situation for months.

 

In April of 2012 I tried again and adopted another greyhound. Things are absolutely wonderful. We are completely the right fit for each other. He's very happy in my home. He is completely content with being alone while I am at work. And I am SO glad that I took yet another risk and tried again, because I really did want a dog and I wanted to be a dog owner, but I wanted to have the right dog for me. Sometimes it takes a little trial and error.

 

Truthfully, only you can decide what you want to do. If you want to stick with it and keep going and you have the means to do so, I urge you to try. If your neighbors are understanding and are giving you time, I hope you continue to try. She's making improvements and that's a great thing. If you feel like throwing in the towel and feel this isn't the right fit, then I hope you don't blame yourself or beat yourself up about it. Yes, owning a dog is a commitment and you made a commitment to her, but if you aren't happy and she isn't happy, then it's time to take a good look at your options. And you do have options. At the end of the day, you are the one making the effort. This is your life, your time, your dog. If she isn't the right fit for you, maybe another greyhound is. I wish you the best of luck from somebody who has been in your shoes, figured it out, and moved on with life.

[greysmom]

It depends.

 

On you. On the dog. On your neighbors. On how much patience each has. On how much more time you're willing to spend. Take a few moments to sit down quietly and do a realistic assessment of all the factors. Write down the pluses and minuses and see which ones add up higher. It's not a failure to realize that your home isn't the right home for THIS dog. If she's not happy, then what sort of life is she having? And you might be a perfect home for a different dog.

 

I will also say that you have several more avenues of medication to try. Many vets just know one or two drugs, but there are several different options available. We really don't know how or why these drugs work in dogs, and just as in people, each drug reacts differently with each individual. I also believe the dose of clomipramine you're giving might be on the low end. That drug actually did nothing for my dog, neither did a couple others we tried. It wasn't until we tried paxil that we found the drug that worked for her. She now actually gets BOTH paxil and alprazolam (xanax). Paxil is a long-term anti-anxiety drug that is given every day and can take up to two weeks to reach a clinically helpful effect. The xanax is a short-acting (like 20 minutes), short-term drug for situational anxiety like thunderstorms or fireworks (or strong wind storms in Cash's case).

 

Further drug trials are not a guarantee that you will find one that works. And they aren't miracle solutions. Anti-anxiety meds will only put her brain into a receptive state so that your training and desensitization can be effective.

[Batmom]

Yes, owning a dog is a commitment and you made a commitment to her, but if you aren't happy and she isn't happy, then it's time to take a good look at your options. And you do have options. At the end of the day, you are the one making the effort. This is your life, your time, your dog. If she isn't the right fit for you, maybe another greyhound is. I wish you the best of luck from somebody who has been in your shoes, figured it out, and moved on with life.

 

Wise words. karilynn's whole post is worth reading, and rereading, and then rereading again.

 

Best luck to you and your pupper.

[Guest twogreytkids]

Unfortunately, there are some hounds that do not do well being an only dog.

 

We had a return that simply hated when his owner was gone. The owner tried everything, including drugs. He did not have the option of adopting another hound. The owner returned him.

 

He was placed in a foster home with other hounds. Now, he could care less when his foster Mom leaves the house. He's got the other hounds to keep him company.

[GeorgeofNE]

I've been where you are--thankfully, not crating my dog was the answer.

 

It sounds to me as if you've tried everything. 10 hours alone is a LONG time. No judgement--most of us have to work for a living, and it is what it is. Sounds like you got one of the dogs who just doesn't deal well with that.

 

There are plenty of dogs who DO.

 

I don't think anyone would blame you if you decided that she's better off in a home where there is either another dog, or someone home.

 

Please don't think all Greyhounds are like this.

 

Good luck.

[greymomnc]

First of all, let me say I have never had a greyhound with SA so I certainly sympathize with all who have dealt with/ are dealing with it. The only thing I can offer is our experience with our very first greyhound Jimmy. He did not like being in his crate especially if we were not home. We did try confining him to one room and he hated that as well. However, after we gave him free roaming of the house he was fine and never bothered anything. Have you tried leaving the entire dwelling to her with the crate door open? That's my only pathetic suggestion with my limited experience.

 

However, if you feel she is not a good fit for you, don't beat yourself up. You have done everything anyone can be expected to do. I am sure the stress of this situation is just as hard on you too.

[NeylasMom]

If you want to keep working with her, greymom had some solid things to say about your medication options and Karilynn has great advice overall.

 

Aside from that, there are a few things I would consider. One is whether the presence of another dog will help her. I know you said you aren't in a position to adopt another, but could you potentially dog sit or "borrow" a foster from your group for a few days (a well settled dog who you know does not have anxiety issues) and then videotape to see if her behavior stops? Generally, if the SA is a result of being without other dogs, the effect will be pretty immediate; the SA behavior will just go away. You will of course need to make sure the dog actually stays in the vicinity of her crate so you may need to also crate that dog, or babygate the dog into the room with her.

 

My feeling has always been that if the dog would be perfectly happy with another dog around, but is so anxious as to require medication then you're probably doing a disservice to the dog keeping her as an only. At least if you do this trial and discover that a dog does or does not help, you'll have more information by which to make a decision.

 

If another dog won't address it, then you have to look at what her other options may be, and that will depend on your group. When I was heavily involved iwth my group, I can't tell you how many SA returns we got where the owners said "He/she needs to go in a home with someone home all of the time." Well I have news for you, where I live the bulk of our adopters work full time. And even those who do not still have to leave the house! So what happened more often was that our foster parents ended up being the ones who did the hard work and then the dog was rehomed with lots of education on how to continue the training so the dog didn't backslide during the transition. But if your group has a lot of adopters who are retired/not working and are willing to find that type of home for her and/or it's the longer length of your day that's an issue, then returning her may be best.

 

As far as a realistic timeline, I've always told people that for a dog with severe SA that requires medication and behavior modification it can take months to work through it. If you can't relatively quickly find a medication that allows her to be home and comfortable (or some other option like leaving her with a friend while you're at work, etc.) so that you can make more significant progress with the alone training, it's probably not the best situation for anyone.

 

I wouldn't begin to try to tell you what to do, but am hoping at least that's helpful in giving you some more things to think about. If you do decide to return her, like Karilynn said you absolutely should not feel like you've failed - it sounds like you've really done everything right and the honest to god truth is - and I've seen this a number of times in my volunteer work - sometimes a particular dog just isn't a good fit for a particular home. I've seen dogs move from one home to another with no notable differences in the people's lifestyles, number of other dogs, etc. and be fine. Also, sometimes the "shock" of a move works like a reset button and if the new folks, aware of her tendencies, act accordingly right off the bat, she may just do better after hte move. You really never know.

Edited January 10, 2013 by NeylasMom

[Guest 2dogs4cats]

Many years ago I adopted a dog that had been returned for SA issues. He was the same as Joy, he would cry and cry when no one was home. Even though I had another hound, he still did it. It didn't bother me and I have a house where the neighbors can't hear. The good news is, he did get over it. The bad news is it took several months. I think every dog has their own timeline and I do think Joy would eventually settle in. But who knows how long it will take. 2 months seems like a long time for you I am sure, but it's not much time for a hound to settle in. Unfortunately,I think it depends on how patient your neighbors are. I am in the Chicago burbs and would be happy to bring my hound over for a trial to see if another dog would help, but not sure if this would help at all since you said you couldn't get another anyway. Since I am close to you, I would be happy yo help in any way. I could even come over and meet her, maybe I would have some suggestions. I have adopted 4 over the years. PM me if I can help.

[Guest karilynn]

Since I am close to you, I would be happy yo help in any way. I could even come over and meet her, maybe I would have some suggestions. I have adopted 4 over the years. PM me if I can help.

 

That is an amazing offer and so nice of you to do that! I hope she takes you up on it.

[gracegirl]

I think being ales with another greyhound is a great idea. Maybe this could happen over a long weekend so you could truly gage her reaction. The point is not so much that you would need to get a second dog (I understand this is not an option) but rather you would gauge how the SA presents with the company of a canine.

 

If she was much better immediately with the company of another dog, you would know that she needs to be part of a multi-dog household. If this will not be possible, you will strongly need to consider placing her back with the group.

 

If she was not any better with companionship, you would then know that time, patience, training and medication are the route you need to take. Unfortunately with the key to the equation being time, your neighbors must be on your side with this.

 

I've never had a true SA dog. About 4 months after I got Grace, she decided she was done with her crate and would bark if I put her in the crate when I left. It took me the weekend to figure out that she just wanted her freedom, after she was given free reign of the house she was quiet once again. Fenway doesn't do well when left alone so he simply never is. This is easy with a pack of three.

 

Best of luck!

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Did you adopt through GO? Please call me to discuss, I live in the suburbs. Chad-630-272-8178

[Guest sprocketta]

Thank you everyone for replies. I am going to discuss this with the adoption group for their opinion. I'm willing to try and work on this further. Joy spent two days staying with the trainer to see if she was loud by herself vs. with other dogs. She howled in both situations but it wasn't exactly like home.

 

She was fostered in two different homes with other greyhounds around and did not show signs of SA according to the foster families.

 

I am going to try and get through all of today's audio footage over the weekend and since I'm off work Monday I may camp out in the hallway outside my apartment for the equivalent of the entire work day to reassess as well.

 

As I said, I do not want to give up on her, but I do not want to keep her in the wrong home, either. I am hoping to give this at least another month, outside pressure permitting, unless my group feels differently.

[Guest grey_dreams]

...I may camp out in the hallway outside my apartment for the equivalent of the entire work day to reassess as well.

 

 

 

It's very likely that she will know you are in the hallway.

[NeylasMom]

 

It's very likely that she will know you are in the hallway.

It won't matter, I can pretty much guarantee it.

 

To the OP, strongly recommend you get a webcam and do a live feed through Ustream. It's free and if you have a smartphone you can download an app and watch the feed that way. It was invaluable when I was doing my SA training with Violet and trying to figure out what worked, which for her by the way was being uncrated. In a sense we got lucky.

[Batmom]

It DOES matter if the dog knows she's there. It's much harder -- orders of magnitude harder -- to get most dogs to settle when they know you're there, versus when they're convinced you're gone.

[NeylasMom]

I didn't make myself very clear - what I meant to say was that she probably won't know she's there. She might initially but if the OP just parks herself outside down the hall a bit she'll believe she's gone. I did it all of the time. Because my condo building is small, I would go down the stairs and open the door and let it close so it sounded like I left the building, then I'd sit on the stairs so she may need to do something like that depending on her circumstances.

[Batmom]

Ah, I gotcha. That could indeed work.

[Guest sprocketta]

I didn't make myself very clear - what I meant to say was that she probably won't know she's there. She might initially but if the OP just parks herself outside down the hall a bit she'll believe she's gone. I did it all of the time. Because my condo building is small, I would go down the stairs and open the door and let it close so it sounded like I left the building, then I'd sit on the stairs so she may need to do something like that depending on her circumstances.

I do something similar. I leave, go down the stairs and out the front door and then creep up the stairs, sometimes a half flight above my apt, sometimes outside it. Usually after an hour she realizes I'm gone and howls.

 

Side note: I did listen to an entire day's worth of audio footage and she's quiet for a couple hours then starts howling for short periods. My next door neighbor mentioned to me that she doesn't mind a little noise as long as it's constant like when I first brought her home . I still have to worry about the upstairs neighbors. I'll still talk to the adoption group, but there's a bit less pressure on me at this point.

[seeh2o]

I went through a lot with Carl with his SA. Ultimately, the things that worked - walking him for over 3 miles every morning, away training, no crating, but muzzling him and giving him the run of the house, and medication, initially valium and clomipramine, then just clomipramine and using my cell phone and home phone (speaker phone) as a baby monitor. When I heard him howling, I'd unmute my cell phone and say, "Carl...no!". That really helped a lot. He was on the clomipramine for 4 - 5 months, in retrospect, it might have been better to keep him on it for another 2 months just to make sure the new behavior was more ingrained. About a year and a half after came to me, his littermate, Doodles joined us. Any small change to his daily routine still upsets his apple cart and true to form, his SA came charging back when Doodles arrived. He still has it to some degree, they both howl off and on when I'm gone, but not like it was. And no destruction. Both are muzzled during the day.

 

Best of luck to you, I know just how difficult it can me. I have a couple of neighbors who are saints and put up with our shenanigans.

[Guest dougbb]

There's no guarateed timeframe of how long it takes for a grey to "get over" SA, but for us it took about six months. At month two, a vet suggested we put Doug on prozac so he could calm down enough for the alone training to take affect. We started him on a dose lower than the one the vet prescribed, but when we didn't see any improvement after two months, went to the prescribed dose. In the meantime, we did mind-numbing amounts of alone training. By the end of month six, I would sometimes come home to find Doug roaching in the back bedroom, totally unperturbed by my departure. We slowly lowered his prozac dosage until now, a year later, he is off it. But what do you know: just this Saturday I came home to him howling again. The neighbors said it's nowhere near as bad as it once was, but we'll still have to go back up to a small dosage of prozac and work on alone training again. An SA dog will always have SA, but there are ways to train the bulk of the anxious behaviors out, and that anxiety is far less rampant than in the early months of a change.

 

So, yes, I do think that with time, training, and the appropriate medication, your dog's SA will dissipate. But there's a big difference between your sitation and mine: I generally work from home, so Doug is never alone for more than six hours at a time, tops. Additionally, my boyfriend lives with me, so usually one of us can pop back during busy days. I don't know that a dog as sensitive as Doug would do well alone for ten hours at a time (even with a dog walk in the middle). But there are plenty of confident dogs out there that need homes and that would do very well alone on a day-long stint.

 

Above all: know that you're not alone in dealing with an SA dog! You're a trooper, and it sounds like the adoption group will help you figure out the right solution. Sending you lots of good thoughts. :-)

[Guest sprocketta]

Just an update to those who are wondering. I did speak with my adoption group and decided that I want to keep working with Joy to get her through the SA. She continues to improve. I had to go out of town and while she was boarded it was definitely confirmed that a second dog would help her, but that's not an option for me right now. If I lived in a building that allowed two and could afford it, I would get a second in a heartbeat since I adore them, but unfortunately I can't. I admit I was pretty freaked out because I had a couple people tell me pretty harshly to give her up, but I've given up my doubt. It's hard when people who don't understand greyhounds get pushy because they don't understand.

 

She's made great strides in the noise level since I last posted. Eventually, we will get there. I understand it's just a matter of time.

 

Thanks to everyone who offered advice and encouragement. She's here to stay.