Des / Proin

[Wonder]

What's the difference between them? I know DES has a weird dosage, not given daily.

[Hubcitypam]

I can't remember why my vet decided to put Bella on Proin instead of DES but it seemed like a good reason at the time and it worked very well for. I was able to wean her down quite a bit.

[DesiRayMom]

Proin is phenylpropanalomine......humans don't use it anymore because of increased blood pressure. Lots of dogs in my clinic

use this with no problems, although we do recommend checking bp now & again. Starts out twice a day, can go to once if working well.

 

DES is a drug with a name about a mile long that is a synthetic female hormone used for spay incontinence.

One the the doctors I work with swears by it. He starts at 3 times a week for a couple of weeks, then twice a week for a bit

goal is once weekly.

 

Given her seizures, I'd guess DES would be the way to go. And if I recall, you said in your other thread that it had only happened

when she's in bed with you? Perhaps that's the time when she is so very totally relaxed that it just doesn't "hold."

 

I'd think it would certainly be worth a try..........best wishes to Passion.

[KF_in_Georgia]

They're two completely different approaches to the same problem. Each one works for some dogs, but not all of them.

 

DES is Diethylstilbestrol, a synthetic, nonsteroidal estrogen. Wikipedia says, "DES has been very successful in treating female canine incontinence stemming from poor sphincter control. It is still available from compounding pharmacies, and at the low (1 mg) dose, does not have the carcinogenic properties that were so problematic in humans. It is generally administered once a day for five days and then once every four to seven days as needed."

 

Proin is phenylpropanolamine hydrochloride. This used to be available in an OTC sinus medicine, but it caused increased risk of strokes in women taking it. I used it on one dog with urinary issues and she went a bit nuts. (She licked all the hair off her back legs within days. I stopped the drug, she stopped the licking. But the dog was pooping huge quantities of white hair for a few days.)

 

(We unsuccessfully tried DES, too. Eventually, her problem just cleared up on its own.)

[Guest grey_dreams]

I agree that you might want to really research what you give Passion because of her seizures. I've never used this, but there is an Incontinence herbal treatment that is available from the Greyhound Gang online store. Maybe someone here has tried it. It's not expensive, maybe it could be worth a try before starting with Proin or DES. Here's the link: http://www.greyhoundgang.org/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=38&product_id=75

 

Sending good thoughts for Passion and you.

[RaineysMom]

I never would give a greyhound Proin, I've seen to many horror stories with bad reactions. As I've said, Rainey was on DES for 5.5 years with no (apparent) issues and she was on the 1 pill a week which has to be a pretty low dose -- and she never peed in bed again (she did start peeing and pooping every time we left for the last 8-9 months of her life though, but that was behavioral and not incontinence.

[cleptogrey]

"DES is Diethylstilbestrol, a synthetic, nonsteroidal estrogen. Wikipedia says, "DES has been very successful in treating female canine incontinence stemming from poor sphincter control. It is still available from compounding pharmacies, and at the low (1 mg) dose, does not have the carcinogenic properties that were so problematic in humans. It is generally administered once a day for five days and then once every four to seven days as needed."

 

felix(@4.5yrs) was administered DES for 5 days when he was "leaking" while sleeping(only sleeping). knock on wood, he's as tight as a drum, we never had to administer after the initial dose. my adoption rep had a fit since is does have carcinogenic properties, but i went w/ what my vet recommended and it worked.

[DaisyDoodle]

Proin/PPA, when used in humans, was a diet drug. Daisy has been on it and is 7 lbs under her racing weight. At least three other dogs I personally know who have been on it also had problems maintaining their weight.

 

Proin ss not meant for dogs with blood pressure or kidney problems.

 

Don't have any experience with DES, but vet told me it works better with younger females who were more recently spayed, FWIW. IIRC, DES shouldn't be used in dogs with mammary tumors.

 

ETA--if you use Proin, use the lowest dose possible. The "regular" dose (for a greyhound-sized dog) is one 50mg tab, twice a day. Daisy has been completely dry on 25mg x2 for months. We are now down to 12.5 mg once a day, and no accidents yet. Vet said she has some dogs that only have to take it a couple of times per week.

Edited November 3, 2012 by DaisyDoodle

[Hubcitypam]

Bella was on Proin for quite some time with no problems or weight loss. My vet discussed with me why was wanting to go with Proin instead of DES, but I've slept since then.

 

Bella started on 50 twice a day then went down to 25 twice a day, then 25 once a day. I would have kept reducing the dose if she hadn't gone to the bridge. My vet said there 3 kinds of leaky girls - some need a fairly high dose all the time, some just need it for a few weeks but most, like Bella, could be weaned way down.

[duncan41]

Proin/PPA, when used in humans, was a diet drug. Daisy has been on it and is 7 lbs under her racing weight. At least three other dogs I personally know who have been on it also had problems maintaining their weight.

 

Proin ss not meant for dogs with blood pressure or kidney problems.

 

Don't have any experience with DES, but vet told me it works better with younger females who were more recently spayed, FWIW. IIRC, DES shouldn't be used in dogs with mammary tumors.

 

ETA--if you use Proin, use the lowest dose possible. The "regular" dose (for a greyhound-sized dog) is one 50mg tab, twice a day. Daisy has been completely dry on 25mg x2 for months. We are now down to 12.5 mg once a day, and no accidents yet. Vet said she has some dogs that only have to take it a couple of times per week.

 

Most Vets have no clue about the reduced dosage for Greyhounds. One of mine developed rhabdomyolysis/acute renal as a result of an "overdose". She's only 8-1/2 and may not see 2013.

[JenniferS]

I personally would not give Proin to one of my dogs again, even thought I know people have had success with it. Quiet Man began leaking & peeing in his sleep and my vet started him on Proin. The leaking stopped, but he had an increase in "seizure-like" episodes. He never had full blown seizures that I know of, but occasionally had episodes best described as confusion when coming out of a seizure. These increased on the Proin and I stopped it. I've had no experience with DES, but I don't know if it is is used on males.

[Guest vahoundlover]

We lost Dolly to a toxic reaction to Proin and I know of 1 other greyhound that died from Proin. Next time around I'll try acupuncture.

[Guest peacehound]

all dogs are different I guess, Peace has been on Proin since we got her as a bounce 5 years ago, we have tried weaning her several times or lowering the dose but as soon as she goes below 50mg twice a day, she leaks a lot and I just can't have her licking herself sore while we are at work, so Proin works for her, it has for several years...vet said if it ever stops working, then we can try DES. Peace is also on other meds for an old injury and Adequan..she did have a terrible reaction to Tramadol after surgery a couple years ago

[Hubcitypam]

all dogs are different I guess, Peace has been on Proin since we got her as a bounce 5 years ago, we have tried weaning her several times or lowering the dose but as soon as she goes below 50mg twice a day, she leaks a lot...

With Bella the vet told me "you play the vet - wean her down and if she leaks go back up".

[tbhounds]

all dogs are different I guess, Peace has been on Proin since we got her as a bounce 5 years ago, we have tried weaning her several times or lowering the dose but as soon as she goes below 50mg twice a day, she leaks a lot and I just can't have her licking herself sore while we are at work, so Proin works for her, it has for several years...vet said if it ever stops working, then we can try DES. Peace is also on other meds for an old injury and Adequan..she did have a terrible reaction to Tramadol after surgery a couple years ago

Any dog can have a reaction to any drug--the difference we are talking about here is when a hound has a reaction to proin it's usually very severe and can often result in death. Tramadol, while its not a fun experience usually will just cause excessive panting, pacing and the side effects will resolve was the drug wears off.

I also almost lost one of my hounds after one single dose of proin--if the the er wasn't 5 minutes away I would have lost her. You will never, ever see proin on my shelf.

Edited November 12, 2012 by tbhounds

[Burpdog]

With DES you have to check platelets as it can reduce them.

 

I won't use either.

[tbhounds]

With DES you have to check platelets as it can reduce them.

 

I won't use either.

Tis true-it can cause irreversible bone marrow suppression. However, at the dosage used for incontinence it would be extremely rare to find that side effect. Again, any drug can cause adverse reactions to any dog at any time. You must always use into consideration risk vs benefit.

[Guest peacehound]

all dogs are different I guess, Peace has been on Proin since we got her as a bounce 5 years ago, we have tried weaning her several times or lowering the dose but as soon as she goes below 50mg twice a day, she leaks a lot and I just can't have her licking herself sore while we are at work, so Proin works for her, it has for several years...vet said if it ever stops working, then we can try DES. Peace is also on other meds for an old injury and Adequan..she did have a terrible reaction to Tramadol after surgery a couple years ago

Any dog can have a reaction to any drug--the difference we are talking about here is when a hound has a reaction to proin it's usually very severe and can often result in death. Tramadol, while its not a fun experience usually will just cause excessive panting, pacing and the side effects will resolve was the drug wears off.

I also almost lost one of my hounds after one single dose of proin--if the the er wasn't 5 minutes away I would have lost her. You will never, ever see proin on my shelf.

 

do you think she can still have a reaction after all this time on Proin? I always worry about my old girl but several times when we tried to wean her off the proin she got so sore from licking the urine off, she doesn't leak just a bit, it's a lot and it would burn her skin..always a worry

[tbhounds]

all dogs are different I guess, Peace has been on Proin since we got her as a bounce 5 years ago, we have tried weaning her several times or lowering the dose but as soon as she goes below 50mg twice a day, she leaks a lot and I just can't have her licking herself sore while we are at work, so Proin works for her, it has for several years...vet said if it ever stops working, then we can try DES. Peace is also on other meds for an old injury and Adequan..she did have a terrible reaction to Tramadol after surgery a couple years ago

Any dog can have a reaction to any drug--the difference we are talking about here is when a hound has a reaction to proin it's usually very severe and can often result in death. Tramadol, while its not a fun experience usually will just cause excessive panting, pacing and the side effects will resolve was the drug wears off.

I also almost lost one of my hounds after one single dose of proin--if the the er wasn't 5 minutes away I would have lost her. You will never, ever see proin on my shelf.

 

do you think she can still have a reaction after all this time on Proin? I always worry about my old girl but several times when we tried to wean her off the proin she got so sore from licking the urine off, she doesn't leak just a bit, it's a lot and it would burn her skin..always a worry

I think most folks that see reactions are usually immediate reactions but, is there a risk sure. Things could change with your girl--blood pressure could change, kidneys values, proteinuria...... If it was my hound I would switch to DES.

[Wonder]

I talked to my vet last night. He guaranteed me that DES would be safe for Passion if I follow the dose.

 

I still have not decided if I want to start it.

[tbhounds]

I talked to my vet last night. He guaranteed me that DES would be safe for Passion if I follow the dose.

 

I still have not decided if I want to start it.

Follow your vet's advise :-)