More Potty Accidents

[jetcitywoman]

Okay, frustration time, and I need the power of Greytalk!

 

To refresh your memories, we've been having accident problems with Capri for months now. She's been to the vet numerous occasions, always tested negative for UTI, been ultrasounded for tumors, kidney stones, abnormal organs, anything abnormal that could cause her to not hold her bladder. We finally gave her a course of antibiotics at my insistence a few weeks ago. We've tried panties, which she wets, and crated her where she peed. As soon as I told the vet that she peed in the crate, he was like "aha, behavior issue, you need to go to a veterinary behaviorist". I wanted to complete the antibiotics first, to rule that out. Well, that's done and she had an accident this morning.

 

So it looks like we'll be making an appt with the behaviorist. But I have a couple questions for you guys at the same time.

 

1. A doggy door would solve the problem, but we're afraid that any door big enough for a greyhound is also big enough for a human so it's a home security risk. Thoughts?

 

2. We have noticed that her potty behavior is odd (I think) for a dog. I've heard of this in human kids, but not dogs. There have been times we're home, like on evenings and weekends. We offer to let her out thinking it's been a few hours so she should need to go. She's like "no thanks, don't need to go out". Two or three minutes later, she's at the door asking to be let out. It seems like she doesn't "register" a full bladder until it's about to burst. Have any of you experienced this in a dog? What was the solution?

 

That observation is what thwarted us from offering her more frequent potty opportunities. For example, we'd like her to pee between breakfast (8:30) and when we leave for work in the morning (9:30), but she usually doesn't want to because she got walked before breakfast. But then I come home at lunch at 11:30 and find a puddle in her trademark spot. That's also why I'm pretty sure she's not having accidents because she's not housebroken. She knows very well how to ask to be let out; she just has accidents when nobody is home at the exact moment she bursts.

Edited October 4, 2012 by jetcitywoman

[Guest Downtownhoundz]

Geez Sharon, I can feel your frustration in your words! I have no advice just good thoughts and hopefully an easy solution!

[Batmom]

How old is she? I assume she hasn't *always* done this?

 

Was the urine cultured, or just tested in the vet's office?

 

What food does she eat?

 

How much does she drink (ballpark) and when?

 

 

Depending on the answers to the above, I might be inclined to do additional vet work (culture, for example) and/or try a food change (lower sodium). With or without those things, I'd get her used to the idea of staying out and peeing when you want her to pee. My Gidget (and my Zema before her) doesn't always want to pee when I think she should, but she has learned that when she wants to come in and someone tells her to go pee, she needs to go pee. And she does.

 

 

 

ETA: Forgot to add, one of my dogs almost always had to go out @ 1.5 hours after eating, even if she'd been out and done everything right after the meal. So when I had to be gone at that time, I adjusted her mealtime accordingly, so she could have her second "out" before I left.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Batmom

[mom2four]

I had my Lab on cranberry pills for the last 4 years of her life (age 10-14) for potty accidents. It helped her. Currently we have our Ambi (male) on cranberry pills because he pees in the kitchen overnight, once or twice per week. We are seeing if it will help him, or if his is behavioral too. Our only female, Tosca - age 6- will get up from a deep sleep and need to go out *right now*. No accidents with her, but I can see the need to go right now.

 

Good luck it can be frustrating.

[greyhead]

I feel your pain, as we had the same thing with Shane. We fought it for two years in various ways. He did the same thing as yours, declining to go out but clearly having to go because he'd be licking his penis to keep the urine off his leg and the bed he'd be on! Then we'd insist he go out, and he'd pee and pee. As I told the vet when she inquired, he really should have felt the pressure of all that needing to come out.

 

We went through various things: antibiotics for E. coli infection, painkillers for arthritis, and the last thing was treatment for Lyme (a borderline test result) after treating for Babesia a year earlier. ALL of these things helped! But apart from the UTI which had to be treated for months, I have to think the TBD's played a very large role in the problem. Somehow his kidneys are compromised, as his creatinine has been between 2.0 and 2.2 for the last 2-3 years. And having him on medium-protein kidney food helped a lot and remains necessary; whenever we try to change to another food, he starts leaking again.

 

So I don't know what to tell you, other than sharing Shane's multi-faceted experience. An internist wanted to call it kidney disease and to put him on a BP reducer and low-protein food, as well as Proin. I declined all of that, since he did badly on Proin several years ago and the rest of it felt premature. I hope there are some approaches in our situation that will help you with yours.

 

ETA: We concluded in Shane's case that this was never a behavioral problem. We think the signals about bladder fullness that should be happening just stop happening when the urinary system is compromised by UTI, TBD, whatever over a long time. On the other hand, the nerves in the leg still work well and alert them to drips. They're doing the best they can with the signals their bodies are giving them.

Edited October 4, 2012 by greyhead

[Guest 2dogs4cats]

I am not an expert obviously, but it doesn't sound behavioral to me. How old is he and how much water does he drink? Anything at all off on the UA or close to abnormal?

[a_daerr]

I went through this problem EXACTLY with Truman. It was a nightmare trying to housebreak him. The worst part was that he wouldn't give any warning signs that he needed to go- he basically just got to the point where he was going to burst and said, "Okay, I'm gonna go right NOW!" Wherever he was, he would just squat and go. I had to stop crating him because he would go inside his crate. It was almost like he had a hard time regulating himself. Sometimes, he would do it right in front of me! If you look back through my posts, you can see all the things I tried. I believe it's titled "Puppy Housebreaking Nightmare." To be honest, the best thing we ever did was installed a doggie door. After a few days, he got the hang of it and we haven't had any accidents since. I was worried when we stayed in a hotel for Grapehounds because I had to leash-walk him for potty breaks. But he did wonderful- not a single accident. I guess after he finally got the hang of going outside, something clicked. If not for the doggie door, he probably still wouldn't be reliably housetrained.

[jetcitywoman]

How old is she? I assume she hasn't *always* done this?

 

She's 8. We had a bit of a problem housetraining her when we first adopted her, but that was more because she was our first dog and we had no clue how to do it. (The power of Greytalk solved that for us ) After that was solved, she was accident-free for a year and a half or two years.

 

Was the urine cultured, or just tested in the vet's office?

 

It was cultured at least once in the many times we took her in to be evaluated. Yep, squeaky clean. That's why the vet's been fighting us tooth and nail to not treat her for UTI. I finally insisted and it probably now says "difficult owner" in her chart.

 

What food does she eat?

 

We're feeding Nature's Select, salmon and sweet potato. It's supposed to be very high quality, and I know for sure that there is no corn, wheat or soy in it. Potato is the only carb. However, if you can tell me what the sodium and protein levels should be, I will check. We also give her lots of treats, but mostly fruit and veggies. She's a tomato hound.

 

How much does she drink (ballpark) and when?

 

About 5 cups a day, which is much less than the 7 - 8 cups the internist said she should drink. Yeah, when we took her for the ultrasound, the internist also had us do a controlled fluid intake evaluation. She does tend to drink like a camel, none for an hour or two and then nearly the whole bowl all at once.

 

ETA: Forgot to add, one of my dogs almost always had to go out @ 1.5 hours after eating, even if she'd been out and done everything right after the meal. So when I had to be gone at that time, I adjusted her mealtime accordingly, so she could have her second "out" before I left.

 

This sound kind of like her, although I don't think she's clockwork like your dog. We've tried offering her after-meal potty breaks, which she scorns and then has to urgently pee a little later. I've also been treating her when she pees in the yard.

 

I want to add that my frustration is more for the vet than my baby. I'm trying to be clinical and logical about the whole thing but it does offend me a bit that they insist that she's got age-related incontinence or some behavior problem. I think they're just washing their hands of us, frankly. Oh, I'm not sure if you all remember, but we also did have her on Proin for two months to see if that helped at the insistence of our vet. Despite the fact that she doesn't "leak" and doesn't pee in her sleep. She's not incontinent, she just seems to not want to pee until she's bursting. With our daily schedule she never has to hold it more than 3 hours during the day.

Edited October 5, 2012 by jetcitywoman

[JJNg]

How many times a day does Capri usually pee? How often is she having accidents? And when she does have an accident, how long has it typically been since she last pottied?

 

With or without those things, I'd get her used to the idea of staying out and peeing when you want her to pee. My Gidget (and my Zema before her) doesn't always want to pee when I think she should, but she has learned that when she wants to come in and someone tells her to go pee, she needs to go pee. And she does.

 

Lots of good medical advice given already, and it sounds like a lot of it has already been done. I wanted to second Batmom's advice above. You mention "offering" potty breaks, which she "scorns" because she doesn't want to pee. Sounds like at least part of the issue is that you just need to get her on your schedule, and teach her that she needs to go when you give her the opportunity. This way, she won't be forced to have an accident inside when you aren't around to let her out later.

 

I do understand your frustration as my boy Wiki has this tendency as well. He often doesn't go when he's outside and doesn't really need to yet. Then when we're back inside and he realizes he needs to go 15 min later, he paces and asks to go out again. The times I insist that he pees before coming back in are before I get ready to leave the house, and before bedtime. At these times, he just doesn't get to come back into until he's pottied. I remember evenings when I made him stay out and kept redirecting him out into the yard when he came to the door for a solid hour before he finally peed and we could go to bed. With consistency, he's gotten better about this and he knows that he has to pee when he's let out into the yard, so we no longer have these stand-offs.

[cleptogrey]

a couple of things come to mind after reading your posts and comments:

rather than just letting her out to pee, take her out on lead, walk her as you would w/ a young dog being house broken and reward w/ food when she pees. use a term like"go potty" or "hurry hurry". first see if that helps. also, some dogs as mentioned above need a second time out to "do it " they seem not to always have the urge the first time.

 

the other is we went thru some craziness w/ felix last year- bursting bladder in the house, long long 5+min of felix standing in the yard and peeing, crazy intake of water. lots of tests were run, no infections, no diabetes, urine concentrate fine...basically healthy urine. at the begining of all of this he started "leaking urine" during his sleep- 4 yrs old at the time. my vet said relaxed sphynicter (sP) muscles, one week of des and he's been fine in the leaking aspect. but the peeing like a racehorse cont. and it first showed itself as him not holding his urine at night. long story short- after monitoring water intake and output, treating for a tick borne disease(since tests of turn up false negative) we tested w/ a shot fo vasopressin tannate - the treatement for diabetes incipidus. it was like a switch was turned on. strangely enough he had only 2 dosages of the hormone(acth) and symptoms subsided. i counted the days until he showed signs of di again, knock on wood...he's as normal as felix can be.

 

go know, these dogs can drive us to drink!

[GeorgeofNE]

It seems like she doesn't "register" a full bladder until it's about to burst. Have any of you experienced this in a dog? What was the solution?

 

You know I have been through this nightmare myself--

 

And this happens to this day. It's as if once a month or so his bladder just suddenly fills up to absolute maximum capacity and if I don't get him out IMMEDIATELY, it just gushes out. He sometimes starts to pee on the sidewalk when I get him out. He has no control once it starts, and that's why I've taken to just permanently leaving an emergency indoor "potty station" by my sliding door (two human hospital bed pads he is allowed to pee on). I can't tell you how frustrating it is. Sometimes I can't actually tell "Is it serious, or is he playing me?" but having shed too many tears over the mess and thrown away at least three expensive dog beds (he pees on them if he has no other options), you bet I move when I think he has to go.

 

He'll stand and pee for two solid minutes. It's usually a gusher, nearly clear, totally odorless, as if someone turned on the water taps.

 

And this happens with seemingly no pattern other than it's about once a month! If he were a girl, I would wonder if it is hormonal!

 

As you know, I have tried EVERYTHING too. There is absolutely no known medical reason why George has had this ongoing problem. Nothing we can DETECT is wrong with him. And I'm sorry--it is NOT behavioral!

 

Through our trials and errors and thousands of dollars of tests, we stumbled on the realization that if he took a certain dose of NSAID, he is able to hold it throughout the day while I'm at work. Lower the dose, the accidents start! At present, he is on 100 mg Rimadyl in the AM. This gets him through the day. 50 mg of Deramaxx worked better, but you can't get Deramaxx any more.

 

He is also taking 200 mg of Gabapentin at night. This seems to help him get through the night.

 

Oh, George has LS--so one theory is that this is a pain thing. But who knows??? Having recently had a hip replacement, and having residual nerve pain now, I can get how nerve pain might disturb him to the point his bladder over flows. I dunno.

 

But you're NOT alone!

 

Maybe at this point do what I've done, and make a potty spot for her? I'm sure, like George, if she could stop, she would. But I know he can't. He tries SO hard that he goes to the closest spot to outside (in his mind) he can find, which is looking out the sliding glass door. So that's where I put his pads.

 

So far he's used them a couple of times--during his transition from Dermaxx to Rimadyl.

 

I'm fortunate that my vet was willing to let me experiment with assorted drug cocktails. She's never seen anything like it herself and I think she finds it rather interesting what works and what doesn't!

 

Oh, and he is on a totally rigid schedule of walks Monday-Friday. I think it really helps for him to know that he's going to go out and he doesn't panic. 5:20 AM, pee break. 5:45 AM, 2 mile walk. 3:45 PM, pee break. 5 PM, pee break. 7 PM, pee break. 9 PM, last out. I should go later than that to avoid things like last night, which was a 3 AM out, but c'mon! I get up at 5:20 AM and take a 2 mile walk in the dark then work all day! I only have so much energy!!

Edited October 5, 2012 by GeorgeofNE

[jetcitywoman]

Yes, we also have our dogs on a regular schedule. It's like this, let me know if you guys think there is too long a time between any parts of it:

 

6:30 get up and potty break in back yard

8:00 morning walk

8:30 breakfast (for them)

9:00 offer a potty break, usually decline, we leave for work

11:30 I get home and offer another potty break while I have lunch. I insist that she potties at this time, no excuses.

5:30 I get home from work and do evening walk

6:30 dinner for them

7:30 toothbrushing and potty break offer, they usually do go out

9:30 last potty break before bed, mandatory

 

She usually pees in the house between when we leave for work and I get home for lunch, less often it happens during the afternoon while we're at work, which is the longer stretch. She usually has an accident a once or twice a week. Always in the same spot - in front of the sliding glass door. After ripping out the old carpet, AND a piece of soaked subfloor and replacing it all, we've taken to keeping a hard plastic chair mat in "her spot" with a towel over it. The mat protects the carpet and the towel allows her to feel comfortable peeing on it as opposed to on the soft carpet next to it. Which isn't to say we're encouraging her. We just don't want to replace a brand new carpet.

 

I like George's story, but I had so much trouble just trying to get the vet to try a UTI treatment, I'm pretty sure they're not going to give me NSAID's because a friend had a similar situation. So we're kind of back to trying a behaviorist and thinking about a doggy door, I guess.

 

The consistency of using that one spot in front of the door, I think is important but I'm not sure what it means. The vet seems to dismiss it. But it kind of makes me think she's TRYING to behave - it's as close to being outside as she can get when nobody is home. It also makes me think she'd appreciate a doggy door. But we have to address the security issue.

Edited October 5, 2012 by jetcitywoman

[JJNg]

6:30 get up and potty break in back yard

8:00 morning walk

8:30 breakfast (for them)

9:00 offer a potty break, usually decline, we leave for work

11:30 I get home and offer another potty break while I have lunch. I insist that she potties at this time, no excuses.

 

She usually pees in the house between when we leave for work and I get home for lunch, less often it happens during the afternoon while we're at work, which is the longer stretch. She usually has an accident a once or twice a week.

 

Are you sure she always pees during either the 6:30 am potty break or the 8:00 am walk? Does she drink much in the morning?

 

The consistency of using that one spot in front of the door, I think is important but I'm not sure what it means. The vet seems to dismiss it. But it kind of makes me think she's TRYING to behave - it's as close to being outside as she can get when nobody is home.

 

I think it just means that she's housetrained and wants to go outside to potty. But she's needing to go at a time when no one is there to let her out. A dog door would probably fix this. Or figuring out a way to adjust your schedule so that she pees shortly before you leave and hopefully won't need to go again until you get home.

 

We have the luxury of finding a restroom pretty much whenever we need to. There are some days we just need to go more than usual, or at a non-routine time. Dogs are the same way, and a dog who is indoors without a dog door doesn't have any option other than to have an accident if the urge to go hits them when no one is home.

[Ragsysmum]

Could you try feeding breakfast earlier? Get up, go potty in garden, feed breakfast, let that settle whilst you have yours etc. then have the walk at 8am as normal. Could be the full tummy is causing pressure on the bladder after a while by which time you have left for work so eating earlier and walking as normal will give time for the pressure to make her need to go on the walk and she will then last till lunchtime. Just a thought.

[Hubcitypam]

I'm not much help, but for a female you'd only need a dog door that is 10.5 X 15 inches. You just have to get the rise right. While a person could conceiveably go thru if they hoisted themselves up and slithered thru sideways, odds are not so good they'd want to do that. I happen to have one here that was only used for 3 months until I got Buddy the pony. My other 90 pound greys fit thru the 10.5 X 15 just fine but Buddy is just too darn big. PM me if you want it and I'll send it.

 

My Bella never ever totally housebroke until I got a dog door then she was perfect.

[jetcitywoman]

Are you sure she always pees during either the 6:30 am potty break or the 8:00 am walk? Does she drink much in the morning?

 

Sometimes she does skip the 6:30 potty break, but she always, always pees on walks. DH does the morning walk and it's possible she's not completely emptying herself, but he tends to walk them longer than I do in the evenings. They're out for 20 - 40 minutes.

 

Could you try feeding breakfast earlier? Get up, go potty in garden, feed breakfast, let that settle whilst you have yours etc. then have the walk at 8am as normal. Could be the full tummy is causing pressure on the bladder after a while by which time you have left for work so eating earlier and walking as normal will give time for the pressure to make her need to go on the walk and she will then last till lunchtime. Just a thought.

 

Yes, we can try that. It's a great suggestion and easy to do. Thank you.

 

I'm not much help, but for a female you'd only need a dog door that is 10.5 X 15 inches. You just have to get the rise right. While a person could conceiveably go thru if they hoisted themselves up and slithered thru sideways, odds are not so good they'd want to do that. I happen to have one here that was only used for 3 months until I got Buddy the pony. My other 90 pound greys fit thru the 10.5 X 15 just fine but Buddy is just too darn big. PM me if you want it and I'll send it.

 

My Bella never ever totally housebroke until I got a dog door then she was perfect.

 

Let me discuss it with DH some more. He's very resistant to a dog door because he thinks someone will break in, so I have to convince him it won't happen. We'd have to install a door in both the slider and the screened porch, or somewhere else in the back wall of the house. Little bit of a challenge.

 

But I am inclined to agree with you. I think that if Capri could go out when she wanted to, she'd be perfect. The only behavior "problem" I see is that she can't let herself out.

[4My2Greys]

The thing that would concern me about the dog door is that your only addressing the housekeeping issue. Capri should be able to hold it for the lengths of time you are gone and if she's not to me its a sign that something is wrong either medically or behaviorally. The fact that she goes by the door tells me she's trying to do right so that would eliminate behavioral, which leaves a medical issue. Just because your vet can't figure it out doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I swear I could copy Susan's post and substitute Nadir's name for George's and it would be exactly what I have experienced. The sudden need to eliminate and being totally helpless to control it once it starts gushing out. Which, by the way is totally unlike his normal peeing method, which is to mark in about 20 different places. The accidents, like Capri's, started sporadically then became an every day event. I spent nearly a year just recently working with my vet trying to figure out what was causing him to have daily accidents. In the past it had been solved with an elimination of rice from his diet, this time though diet changes, and I made numerous, were not helping. In desperation I asked one of the vet's I brought him in to see about trying Gabapentin to see if these uncontrollable issues with peeing were being caused by an issue with nerve pain. Thankfully she was receptive to letting me try it. After 3 days of being on a twice a day dosage the accidents stopped. I did have to increase the dosage from what we started at, but now we've addressed the pain that was causing the problem. Which is one of the reasons I'm sharing my experience with you. I suspect Nadir's problem is either caused by Painful Bladder Disorder or nerve pain, interestingly Gabapentin is given in both these instances. My mother knows someone with PBD and the fact that she has access to a bathroom does not change the excruciating pain of this disorder as I'm sure Susan will agree that having access to a bathroom does not eliminate the pain she experiences.

[philospher77]

Something you might want to talk to your vet about is the tomatoes. There's been another thread recently (something like "another food dogs can't have") with information on problems with tomatoes and dogs. It can cause ataxia, which might possibly be affecting your dog. I am thinking that this sounds like a nerve issue, or else a physiological one. Might be worth seeing some specialists.

[Batmom]

If she's drinking @ a whole bowl (or a couple cups) all at once, then she will have to go out 1-2 hours later. My Zema did that in the late afternoon / early evening until we changed her food. In her case we went to a homeprepped, very low sodium, limited ingredient diet, and that worked.

 

We did find that she had high blood pressure and started her on meds for that, and she died (@ 3 years later) when she became paralyzed due to a spinal mass. Those factors may have contributed to her drinking/urinary issues.

 

My Joseph has kidney disease and tends to drink (and pee) a lot when fed regular commercial foods. He does better in that regard on lower-sodium foods such as Innova Senior or Senior Plus. I've chosen to feed him mostly home-prepped as he seems to lack energy / condition on the Innovas.

[JJNg]

Could you try feeding breakfast earlier? Get up, go potty in garden, feed breakfast, let that settle whilst you have yours etc. then have the walk at 8am as normal.

 

I was thinking the same thing, especially if she always pees on walks. If you can manage it with your schedule, I'd also try to push back the morning walk a little - even just 30 min, so that she has an empty bladder shortly before you leave in the morning.

 

The thing that would concern me about the dog door is that your only addressing the housekeeping issue. Capri should be able to hold it for the lengths of time you are gone and if she's not to me its a sign that something is wrong either medically or behaviorally. The fact that she goes by the door tells me she's trying to do right so that would eliminate behavioral, which leaves a medical issue.

 

I think that it's worth continuing to look for an underlying cause, especially since she's an older dog who went a couple years without problems. Were there any schedule changes around the time she started having accidents again? And I agree that most dogs should be able to hold it for 3 hours (the morning interval when most of the accidents occur), but it's still possible that there's nothing medically wrong, and her bladder just gets full a couple hours after breakfast. Some dogs drink more after they eat, or the meal just gets things going. Remember, she's usually able to hold it for the 5-hr afternoon period.

 

Also, the fact that she goes by the door doesn't eliminate behavioral. Another possibility is that there is something going on either in or out of the house that is disturbing her during that morning period. Just like people, if a dog is sleeping, they usually don't need to potty, but if something wakes them up, they may need to go. Setting up a video camera might provide more info.

[jetcitywoman]

Something you might want to talk to your vet about is the tomatoes. There's been another thread recently (something like "another food dogs can't have") with information on problems with tomatoes and dogs. It can cause ataxia, which might possibly be affecting your dog. I am thinking that this sounds like a nerve issue, or else a physiological one. Might be worth seeing some specialists.

 

I know what you're referring to. Galgomum discovered that Lehto was eating green tomatoes off the vine in her garden. We don't have a garden, and I only give Capri pieces of ripe tomato, and only as treats or a few pieces in her meal. She's so cute. She bounces just as high when she smells tomato as when she smells meat.

 

If she's drinking @ a whole bowl (or a couple cups) all at once, then she will have to go out 1-2 hours later. My Zema did that in the late afternoon / early evening until we changed her food. In her case we went to a homeprepped, very low sodium, limited ingredient diet, and that worked.

 

Yep, we noticed that about an hour after she drains the Atlantic, she's gotta pee like a racehorse. I look at her and go "Duh!" DH sometimes tries pushing her away from the water bowl, but I think that's a touch mean. I'll take another look at the ingredient list of the kibble we're feeding. Maybe it does have too much salt. We'll also try feeding morning breakfast a bit earler so that she can potty more after she eats.

 

Thanks everybody! I love the power of Greytalk.

Edited October 7, 2012 by jetcitywoman