Osteo Hounds -- Is Gable Dodge, Wigwam Wag Or Hb's Commander In

[Guest patterpaws]

Oh this thread isn't whats scaring me off, its the experience of having a hound with osteo, and reading about how prone they are to getting it in general (separate of this thread). Speculating on where it originated doesn't affect the worry at all, its just interesting conversation.

 

You're right about any dog or animal having the potential of having really expensive health issues. I guess thats the risk. It does seem like purebred dogs in general come with more risks because of breeding practices, though.

 

I guess I'm the type of person who wants to be really really prepared if I'm going to take on the responsibility of caring for a living thing. Like being one of those people who puts off having kids because I'm not prepared, and then ends up waiting too long. If I adopt another hound, I just want to do so knowing that I have the funds set aside to take care of them in case this happens again. I've had many many pets before, but none has cost between 10-15k for one health problem. It would devastate me if this happened again and I had to put down my beloved hound purely for money reasons.

 

I hate talking about the money side of it though, that sounds so selfish. They're worth so much more than stupid money.

[Guest OPointyDog]

There is a lot of misinformation out there about the prevalence of osteo. When we were looking into the breed, I came across a published, peer-reviewed scientific article online that described the results of a huge survey looking at life expectancy and instances of illness in greyhounds compared to other breeds. It indicated that the rates of cancer (including osteo) were no different in greyhounds than other breeds. What I do remember is that gastrointestinal problems were slightly more common in greys, but it wasn't wildly different. I wish I could find that article again.... I will have to look again.

 

When we started the interview process to adopt our grey, I asked the home visit team about it, and they told us that the main health issue was osteo. I didn't want to argue with them, but compared to other breeds, at least from a scientific perspective, that doesn't seem to be true.

[RaineysMom]

Oh this thread isn't whats scaring me off, its the experience of having a hound with osteo, and reading about how prone they are to getting it in general (separate of this thread). Speculating on where it originated doesn't affect the worry at all, its just interesting conversation.

 

You're right about any dog or animal having the potential of having really expensive health issues. I guess thats the risk. It does seem like purebred dogs in general come with more risks because of breeding practices, though.

 

I guess I'm the type of person who wants to be really really prepared if I'm going to take on the responsibility of caring for a living thing. Like being one of those people who puts off having kids because I'm not prepared, and then ends up waiting too long. If I adopt another hound, I just want to do so knowing that I have the funds set aside to take care of them in case this happens again. I've had many many pets before, but none has cost between 10-15k for one health problem. It would devastate me if this happened again and I had to put down my beloved hound purely for money reasons.

 

I hate talking about the money side of it though, that sounds so selfish. They're worth so much more than stupid money.

 

on the contrary, it's not selfish at all. You are being realistic and only want the best for your hound and I wish more people thought about the reality of animal adoption before they jump in. It's a rare quality.

 

hugs to you and your baby boy. He sure is a handsome guy.

 

There is a lot of misinformation out there about the prevalence of osteo. When we were looking into the breed, I came across a published, peer-reviewed scientific article online that described the results of a huge survey looking at life expectancy and instances of illness in greyhounds compared to other breeds. It indicated that the rates of cancer (including osteo) were no different in greyhounds than other breeds. What I do remember is that gastrointestinal problems were slightly more common in greys, but it wasn't wildly different. I wish I could find that article again.... I will have to look again.

 

When we started the interview process to adopt our grey, I asked the home visit team about it, and they told us that the main health issue was osteo. I didn't want to argue with them, but compared to other breeds, at least from a scientific perspective, that doesn't seem to be true.

 

I wonder that because most hounds, up until say the past 20 years, never made it off the tracks or lived past 6 so more accurate statistics are just starting to come about.

Edited July 22, 2012 by RaineysMom

[Guest OPointyDog]

I wonder that because most hounds, up until say the past 20 years, never made it off the tracks or lived past 6 so more accurate statistics are just starting to come about.

 

That's a good question - one would have to look at where the survey sample came from. I think I remember that the information came from pet owners, but you're right, that the information for the breed is probably over a much shorter timespan because the practice of having them as pets didn't become more common until relatively recently. If I find the article, I'll post a link.

[JJNg]

Many genetic defects aren't inherited -- they're acquired. and the cause is often a mystery. For another, a gene may be associated with a disorder but not necessarily cause it -- it may be that 99.9% of greyhounds who get osteosarcoma have gene xyz, but only 20% of greyhounds who have gene xyz get osteosarcoma.

 

Completely agree with this, and keeping this in mind helps keep things in perspective. No need to get worried about specific lines until we have all the info.

 

I know Shelley has a pretty strong sense of what the osteo lines are, at least informally, even if this is not verifiable. And alas I know she clearly regards Gable Dodge as one of them; I can't speak for the others. And yeah, he's Beth's maternal grandsire. I've been feeling pretty crappy lately about that.

 

The data Shelley's collecting only takes into account the dogs that get cancer. She hasn't collected any data on the number of dogs from those same lines that don't develop osteosarcoma (OSA). And given that Gable Dodge has had over 10,000 offspring, we don't have a true sense of what percentage of them develop OSA and how that compares to other sires.

 

It does seem to me that greyhounds are much healthier than other purebred dogs, besides this horrible osteo. I always guessed it was because they were bred for performance and not exaggerated appearances.

 

I definitely agree with this. Overall, greyhounds are one of the healthier breeds of purebred dogs. This board may give a skewed perspective because everyone posts here when they have problems. There are many greyhounds that are healthy that we don't hear about.

 

Hrm. So if he isn't showing up in the database, that means he flunked out of training and didn't race?

 

Not necessarily. The database is not official or complete - dogs are entered by volunteers, so not every racer is in there. Was there any more to Tristan's racing name than just Heritage? It's also possible they got his name wrong when he was transfered from the racing kennel to the adoption group. Can you try to read the tattoo in his left ear - sometimes it helps to take a flashlight and shine it through the ear from underneath.

[GreytNut]

Makes no difference here...even if say it was Gable that has the osteo gene, I'd still adopt a Gable dog. It's kind of like some people who adopt a senior, they know time is limited, but still want to give that grey a loving home...I'd do the same with a osteo pup.

 

Me too. I adopted Riley because he was a good match for us. When I saw Gable Dodge in his pedigree I went forward anyway even after losing a previous Gable pup to osteo and suspecting that the line was prone to it. There's a whole lot of good to be said for Gable dogs... I have observed that they tend to be very smart and have great personalities. There are no guarantees in life. Riley might never develop osteo. It would be a shame to turn down a perfectly good dog because he may or may not succumb to a specific disease. Every dog will die of something.

 

There is a lot of misinformation out there about the prevalence of osteo. When we were looking into the breed, I came across a published, peer-reviewed scientific article online that described the results of a huge survey looking at life expectancy and instances of illness in greyhounds compared to other breeds. It indicated that the rates of cancer (including osteo) were no different in greyhounds than other breeds. What I do remember is that gastrointestinal problems were slightly more common in greys, but it wasn't wildly different. I wish I could find that article again.... I will have to look again.

 

When we started the interview process to adopt our grey, I asked the home visit team about it, and they told us that the main health issue was osteo. I didn't want to argue with them, but compared to other breeds, at least from a scientific perspective, that doesn't seem to be true.

 

All large breeds with a lot of bone are susceptible to osteo. I seem to recall that Rottweilers actually have the highest incidence, if memory serves. But by and large, most of the health problems that plague other purebred dogs have been bred out of greyhounds. For example, you almost never hear of a greyhound with hip dysplasia. I suspect that because many of the other health problems have been weeded out, it probably appears that osteo is more of an issue than it really is since it's one of the few left.

 

I will continue to adopt greyhounds because I love the breed. I'll continue to choose individuals regardless of pedigree. And if research is indeed able to isolate the specific gene that causes osteo and determine whether or not a potential sire and dam carry it, perhaps we can greatly reduce (if not completely eliminate) osteo in our hounds.

[galgrey]

Sadly, cancer is the leading cause of death of dogs of all breeds.

 

 

Landmark Study Confirms Cancer is Top Cause of Dog Death

 

by Dr. Demian Dressler

 

A study done in the Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine backs up the fact that canine cancer is now the number one cause of death in dogs.

 

Data from 74,556 dogs over 20 years (1984-2004) were analyzed. This data was archived for the National Cancer Foundations Veterinary Medical Database, and then surveyed. 27 veterinary hospitals across the country contributed.

 

There is no single cause for this. Certainly there are breed (genetic) issues at play. It could be that age of death is a factor. However, there is more to this picture.

 

Diet, lifestyle, and environmental issues are likely culprits. In immigrants coming into the US, their cancer rates end up matching that of the Americans. This combines with other research tells us that diet, lifestyle, and environmental issues are major culprits of cancer.

 

Here is an excerpt from the National Cancer Institutes SEER program: Between 1975 and 2003, a number of studies were published;Their conclusions have been remarkably uniform. The studies found that cancer incidence patterns among first-generation immigrants were nearly identical to those of their native country, but through subsequent generations, these patterns evolved to resemble those found in the United States.

 

This tells us that we should pay much more attention to diet, environmental issues, and lifestyle in our dogs.

 

Link to article: http://www.dogcancerblog.com/landmark-study-confirms-cancer-is-top-cause-of-dog-death/

 

 

Link to article below: http://www.findavet.us/2010/10/top-5-dog-breeds-prone-to-cancer/

 

Based on pet insurance claims, Boxers are apparently more susceptible to canine cancer than other breeds, according to a list released today by Trupanion, a pet-insurance company.

 

The list is based on the number of cancer-related claims the company has received for each breed since August 2000.

 

These are the breeds with the most cancer-related claims, and the number for each:

 

1. Boxers 98

2. German Shepherds 96

3. Golden Retrievers 86

4. Rottweilers 86

5. Doberman Pinschers 42

 

The National Canine Cancer Foundation reports that cancer affects one in every three dogs, and half of those will die from the disease. The foundation encourages all dog owners to routinely examine their dogs for any physical or behavioral abnormalities and bring their dogs in for regular veterinary exams.

Edited July 23, 2012 by galgrey

[robinw]

Patterpaws, I think osteo seems so common because we don't often read about all of those dogs who are healthy, we mostly just read about those that are ill. It's a crap shoot; I've had mixed breeds that developed cancer and greyhounds that didn't.

 

I also think it's normal to think that we'll never adopt another as we're going through the heartbreak of osteo and soon afterwards. It seems like many, many people continue to adopt greyhounds, even after losing at least one to this awful disease.

[Guest GenetJen]

Interesting thread. I think all dog breeds (and mixed breeds!) come with risks..that's just how it is. I do know I've always said, "I'd never have a boxer...they all die of cancer." Silly I guess. I thought my greyhound was immune to all this crap because I'd always read what a healthy breed they are. Silly, bad things can happen to any dog. I also feel like it's not just the genes that are present, it's how they're expressed. There are environmental factors at play that weigh on genetics.

 

It was fun to go look at Maya's pedigree again! I haven't been to that page in years. After I first got her, I got on there and uploaded pictures and stuff. Fun times. For the record, I didn't see any of the suspects in Maya's pedigree. Here she is: http://greyhound-data.com/d?i=644058

Pa's Fast Chic.

[MachosMom]

Macho has Gable Dodge and Wigwam on his mom's side .... Just 3 lines back for Wigwam, 2 for Gable Dodge.

[racindog]

While you know my Minny whose dad was also Gable Dodge succumbed to brain cancer last July I do NOT believe that his offspring have anymore propensity to cancer than any others. The more pups sired the more of everything-including super healthy ones. Wigwam was also the grandad of my frist broodie Aggie Desperado whose own dad won an Iron Dog and Aggie lived to the ripe old age of 14 1/2 before crossing over of pure old age. I personally believe things like the rabies vaccine and chemicals in the enviroment like spot on etc. may be more damaging in cancer propensity. In fact Minny had a terrible rxn to his last rabies shot and nearly died and coincidentally only a year later he went down with seizures/brain cancer etc. I'm not convinced it wasn't initiated by the rabies vaccination which is known to sometimes induce cancer(which is why manufactures direct it be injected into the rear leg). My first hound Ivy(Dream Irish) that I lost to osteo was by an imported Irish stud.

[carronstar]

All of those dogs are in my girl's pedigree. As is Onie Jones if you go back far enough.

 

As much as it hurt to lose Scarlett at 19 to osteo -- and to be honest, I knew I would lose her that year just because of her age -- the osteo won't stop me from adopting another hound. I lost Morgaine to status epilepticus. I almost lost Aquitaine in December to a mass in her spleen. Thankfully, she woke me up and we got the the ER and it never burst, was removed, and was a benign fat tumor (what the surgeon told me I wanted it to be) bigger than a softball.

 

When Scarlett first went down on her legs, my vet and I decided to treat it as old age and arthritis before jumping to the osteo conclusion, after all, she had made it to a serious old age so that wasn't the first thing to think of. When there was no relief after a month of Adequan, massage therapy, heat therapy, water therapy, we scheduled the x-rays. When they came out and asked to x-ray her chest, I had my answer. My poor vet did his level best to explain to a fairly hysterical me that they lose as many dogs to arthritis as to osteo but I just couldn't process that at the time. Now I am glad that he told me. It serves as a reminder that something will always take them -- they are not forever.

 

I try to go by what my childhood vet, while my family was breeding and showing, taught me -- we only get these creatures for a very limited time and we are lucky to love and learn from them. That same vet did tell me that on an individual level, I should NEVER have a giant breed dog because I get so emotional. On the one hand, I know how right he is, on the other hand, I would much rather have the time I have with each dog.

 

What I do know, having had 3 greys now from all these sires is that they throw great/greyt pups.

Edited July 23, 2012 by carronstar

[NeylasMom]

I think it's important to remember that it's not greyhounds who have such a high risk of osteo, it's large breed dogs. I think there is some evidence that the risk may be somewhat higher in greyhounds than other large breeds (OSU was looking into this), but nothing definitive and still not likely that much higher. And of course, if you choose another breed that's not at high risk for osteo, it will just be something else. I do find osteo a particularly tough cancer to deal with, but I say that not having dealt with another one. The bottom line is while some dogs die of old age/pass peacefully in their sleep, most don't and we are forced to make tough decisions, sometimes suddenly.

[Burpdog]

I've had 4 with osteo and doing a quick look only one was related to the originally mentioned dogs -- my Molotov son.

 

Like us humans, they are all going to die from something. Sad, but true.

 

For some reason, the ones who come to me have or will have something wrong <very big sigh> If I worried about my pain, sorrow and money, I'd never adopt another.

[Guest LindsaySF]

With the advent of frozen semen you now have sires with 10 to 15 thousand pups. Therefore, the vast majority of dogs will have Sweet Trey, Dodge, Wag is Dodge's sire so for every Dodge you have Wag along with otheres Wag sired not through Dodge.

 

Commander is the sire of Molotov and Mankato so you have who knows how many pups with Commander in them once you go back 3 or 4 generations.

 

You will drive yourself crazy trying to figure out where osteo came from. Just enjoy your dogs.

This.

 

Some of these sires have thousands of offspring, and their offspring have thousands of offspring. If you look hard enough, you'll see "patterns" in the lineage, but really if you go back far enough they are all related. Think about the thousands of offspring that never get osteo, or even the thousands of Greyhound owners that don't post on Greytalk (or even know it exists). Some people posting here with patterns is a really skewed sample.

 

 

I don't think sharing an ancestor several generations back is that significant. If a sire's direct offspring got osteo, at a rate higher than usual for large breed dogs, then that warrants study.

 

 

 

Many genetic defects aren't inherited -- they're acquired. and the cause is often a mystery. For another, a gene may be associated with a disorder but not necessarily cause it -- it may be that 99.9% of greyhounds who get osteosarcoma have gene xyz, but only 20% of greyhounds who have gene xyz get osteosarcoma.

Agreed.

 

 

I think it's important to remember that it's not greyhounds who have such a high risk of osteo, it's large breed dogs.

Yup And cancer in general is the leading cause of death in dogs. They all die of something, the question is when and what?

 

I personally would be more interested in hearing about the lineage of dogs that die of cancer when age 5 or younger. Those aggressive cancers that strike young dogs might be hereditary.

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[RaineysMom]

I personally believe things like the rabies vaccine and chemicals in the enviroment like spot on etc. may be more damaging in cancer propensity. In fact Minny had a terrible rxn to his last rabies shot and nearly died and coincidentally only a year later he went down with seizures/brain cancer etc. I'm not convinced it wasn't initiated by the rabies vaccination which is known to sometimes induce cancer(which is why manufactures direct it be injected into the rear leg). My first hound Ivy(Dream Irish) that I lost to osteo was by an imported Irish stud.

 

like you, I'm convinced Rainey's seizure and brain issues came from her last rabies shot, which was about 3 weeks before her first seizure.

[TINMANPDX]

My lovely Lea (PTL Lea http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?d=ptl+lea&sex=&color=&birthyear=&birthland=) is related to HB's Commander, and she was a brood mama prior to retiring. Is in perfect health so far, aside from the occasional corn. I can understand your need to make sense of something that seems senseless.

[RaineysMom]

My lovely Lea (PTL Lea http://www.greyhound...ear=&birthland=) is related to HB's Commander, and she was a brood mama prior to retiring. Is in perfect health so far, aside from the occasional corn. I can understand your need to make sense of something that seems senseless.

 

OMG you have LARRY'S MOTHER!!!!!!!! http://greyhound-data.com/d?d=ptl+laroach&sex=&color=&birthyear=&birthland=

 

he is PTL LaRoach!!!!!!

[Yamaha_gurl]

My lovely Lea (PTL Lea http://www.greyhound...ear=&birthland=) is related to HB's Commander, and she was a brood mama prior to retiring. Is in perfect health so far, aside from the occasional corn. I can understand your need to make sense of something that seems senseless.

 

OMG you have LARRY'S MOTHER!!!!!!!! http://greyhound-dat...year==

 

he is PTL LaRoach!!!!!!

 

WOOOOO Hooooo! You found a MOTHER on GT! I looooove connections!

 

Note to others, add at least a link in your signature to your greyhounds greyhound-data.com racing page! Or a name!

Edited July 24, 2012 by Yamaha_gurl

[Wonder]

I personally believe things like the rabies vaccine and chemicals in the enviroment like spot on etc. may be more damaging in cancer propensity. In fact Minny had a terrible rxn to his last rabies shot and nearly died and coincidentally only a year later he went down with seizures/brain cancer etc. I'm not convinced it wasn't initiated by the rabies vaccination which is known to sometimes induce cancer(which is why manufactures direct it be injected into the rear leg). My first hound Ivy(Dream Irish) that I lost to osteo was by an imported Irish stud.

 

like you, I'm convinced Rainey's seizure and brain issues came from her last rabies shot, which was about 3 weeks before her first seizure.

I'm glad I saw this. I wasn't planning on allowing Passion to get any more shots but for sure not after reading this! In 2 more days it will be a month since her last seizure.

[RaineysMom]

I personally believe things like the rabies vaccine and chemicals in the enviroment like spot on etc. may be more damaging in cancer propensity. In fact Minny had a terrible rxn to his last rabies shot and nearly died and coincidentally only a year later he went down with seizures/brain cancer etc. I'm not convinced it wasn't initiated by the rabies vaccination which is known to sometimes induce cancer(which is why manufactures direct it be injected into the rear leg). My first hound Ivy(Dream Irish) that I lost to osteo was by an imported Irish stud.

 

like you, I'm convinced Rainey's seizure and brain issues came from her last rabies shot, which was about 3 weeks before her first seizure.

I'm glad I saw this. I wasn't planning on allowing Passion to get any more shots but for sure not after reading this! In 2 more days it will be a month since her last seizure.

 

I didn't know she had one!!!!! crap. sending her and you many hugs!

[Wonder]

I personally believe things like the rabies vaccine and chemicals in the enviroment like spot on etc. may be more damaging in cancer propensity. In fact Minny had a terrible rxn to his last rabies shot and nearly died and coincidentally only a year later he went down with seizures/brain cancer etc. I'm not convinced it wasn't initiated by the rabies vaccination which is known to sometimes induce cancer(which is why manufactures direct it be injected into the rear leg). My first hound Ivy(Dream Irish) that I lost to osteo was by an imported Irish stud.

 

like you, I'm convinced Rainey's seizure and brain issues came from her last rabies shot, which was about 3 weeks before her first seizure.

I'm glad I saw this. I wasn't planning on allowing Passion to get any more shots but for sure not after reading this! In 2 more days it will be a month since her last seizure.

 

I didn't know she had one!!!!! crap. sending her and you many hugs!

It was a grand mal and horrible. I know you can relate.

[RaineysMom]

I personally believe things like the rabies vaccine and chemicals in the enviroment like spot on etc. may be more damaging in cancer propensity. In fact Minny had a terrible rxn to his last rabies shot and nearly died and coincidentally only a year later he went down with seizures/brain cancer etc. I'm not convinced it wasn't initiated by the rabies vaccination which is known to sometimes induce cancer(which is why manufactures direct it be injected into the rear leg). My first hound Ivy(Dream Irish) that I lost to osteo was by an imported Irish stud.

 

like you, I'm convinced Rainey's seizure and brain issues came from her last rabies shot, which was about 3 weeks before her first seizure.

I'm glad I saw this. I wasn't planning on allowing Passion to get any more shots but for sure not after reading this! In 2 more days it will be a month since her last seizure.

 

I didn't know she had one!!!!! crap. sending her and you many hugs!

It was a grand mal and horrible. I know you can relate.

 

not trying to hijack but...

 

I just looked up your posts and saw that she will be 10 in October....and is more vocal than she used to. Rainey's first seizure was in August prior to her 10th birthday. AND she had pancreatitis as well AND she became increasingly more vocal (that started maybe 1-2 months before the 1st seizure). :( we used green beans (I'd just defrost the frozen cut beans) and give those as in-between meal treats as she acted constanly hungry too -- they were low fat and she liked them.

 

sending many, MANY MANY prayers that she doesn't have any more seizures.

[Wonder]

I personally believe things like the rabies vaccine and chemicals in the enviroment like spot on etc. may be more damaging in cancer propensity. In fact Minny had a terrible rxn to his last rabies shot and nearly died and coincidentally only a year later he went down with seizures/brain cancer etc. I'm not convinced it wasn't initiated by the rabies vaccination which is known to sometimes induce cancer(which is why manufactures direct it be injected into the rear leg). My first hound Ivy(Dream Irish) that I lost to osteo was by an imported Irish stud.

 

like you, I'm convinced Rainey's seizure and brain issues came from her last rabies shot, which was about 3 weeks before her first seizure.

I'm glad I saw this. I wasn't planning on allowing Passion to get any more shots but for sure not after reading this! In 2 more days it will be a month since her last seizure.

 

I didn't know she had one!!!!! crap. sending her and you many hugs!

It was a grand mal and horrible. I know you can relate.

 

not trying to hijack but...

 

I just looked up your posts and saw that she will be 10 in October....and is more vocal than she used to. Rainey's first seizure was in August prior to her 10th birthday. AND she had pancreatitis as well AND she became increasingly more vocal (that started maybe 1-2 months before the 1st seizure). :( we used green beans (I'd just defrost the frozen cut beans) and give those as in-between meal treats as she acted constanly hungry too -- they were low fat and she liked them.

 

sending many, MANY MANY prayers that she doesn't have any more seizures.

I tried to find your posts about Rainey but they must be gone. You never figured out what was causing them, right?

Passion is actually acting more like her old self. She doesn't seem overly hungry, not drinking a lot and not whining as much as a month ago. She's also not needing to be with me every second. She still lays by the door which is a new behavior. I guess she thinks if she lays there, I will take her with me when I leave

Edited July 25, 2012 by Wonder

[TINMANPDX]

My lovely Lea (PTL Lea http://www.greyhound...ear=&birthland=) is related to HB's Commander, and she was a brood mama prior to retiring. Is in perfect health so far, aside from the occasional corn. I can understand your need to make sense of something that seems senseless.

 

OMG you have LARRY'S MOTHER!!!!!!!! http://greyhound-dat...year==

 

he is PTL LaRoach!!!!!!

Hi Kim,Sorry it took so long for me to reply - I usually only visit Greytalk on my breaks or lunch at work and sometimes in the evening at home. I would love to find out more about your Larry and share info (and pics) about Lea. E-mail me at TINMANPDX@GMAIL.COM. I am kind of new to this site and am not sure how to e-mail or communicate privately with other members.