Trudy Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Is there a 'truer' protein calculation other than the label on the bag? Our vet confused us today. I emailed her when we got home, so hopefully she can explain, but in the meantime.... we are on the search for a lower protein food for Jet. The senior version of her current food is the same protein level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhiteWave Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 You can calculate by dry matter: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/dry-matter-basis/ What is the protein in the food he is eating now? What level are you looking for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trudy Posted June 8, 2012 Author Share Posted June 8, 2012 I don't think Dry Matter Basis is what she was doing. She needed the size of the bag and all sorts of other stuff as well to figure it out. I don't know that we want lower protein, but likely lower Phosphorus like we did with Ryan. So I emailed Diamond to get phosphorus info since it isn't on the bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brindles Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 4health makes low protein foods: large breed and lamb and rice. Calcium and Phosphorous values are very important. I wonder why they don't list them. Quote | Rachel | Dewty, Trigger, and Charlotte | Missing Dazzle, Echo, and Julio | Learn what your greyhound's life was like before becoming part of yours!"The only thing better than the cutest kitty in the world is any dog." -Daniel Tosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhiteWave Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Not sure then how she was calculating, but would be interested to know what she was doing! I know California Natural has several low protein foods. Lamb and rice, Herring and Sweet Potato and the Chicken and rice are all 21% protein. They probably have the phosphorus listed on their website. http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products If you want grain free with low protein- Nutrisource has some of the lowest with 23% protein in their large breed grain free foods. http://www.nutrisourcedogfood.com/nutrisource/products/gf_lg_lamb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickiesmom Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 My Jaynie is on low protein food after a bad drug reaction following her spay sent her into acute renal failure (not diagnosed for a crucial couple of days because her bloodwork going in was perfect). I feed Royal Canin / MediCal low protein supplemented by one egg daily cooked in organic coconut oil. People can flame me for the ingredients in that food but almost 3 years on she is the vision of health and I am not messing with success. If you want a non prescription alternative, have a look at Wellness Core reduced fat - unlike most companies, Wellness lists maximums instead of minimums for many important dietary components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbhounds Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) Solid Gold also has a lower protein food (18%). Also, may want to check out dogaware.com Edited to add- you can also try petdiets.com if you would like to try home cooking. Edited June 9, 2012 by tbhounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirsmom Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Lower phosphorus foods would be Nutro Natural choice Herring, Most Science Diet dry foods are probably the lowest, Innova senior. Lower protein foods would be Nutro Nat. Choice, Just 6 by Rachael Ray, Science Diet Healthy Mobility to name a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryJane Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 What I usually go by is the protein (in grams) in 8 ounces or 1 cup of food (home-made or kibble) rather than the "percentage" they give you on the label for the protein. The vet nutritionist that I consulted also used the same method. Larry gets a certain number of grams of protein a day based on his weight and that is broken up into meat, rice, oatmeal, beans, and grits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleptogrey Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 how low are your looking for? science diet- not my favorite- has some low protien foods. my vet swears by it- his dogs all live to 18.....go know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeylasMom Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Sadly you may have to call manufacturers to get that info, unless you can find someone who already has. I needed it for my cat, who has CKD and fortunately was able to find an amazing website designed to help owners deal with CKD. She has done it by contacting companies and doing the calculations for nearly every canned and dry cat food. She has a table sorted by phosphorus content iwth a special section for Rx diets at the top so I was able to quickly identify a non-Rx food that had similar protein and fat levels to Cisco's current food, but had phosphorus levels near the Rx diets. We switched him and he's doing very well on it. Anyway, all of that to say, maybe try the kidney disease yahoo groups to see if anyone has already done the research? Quote Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart "The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubcitypam Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Poodle did very well for 2+ years on Natural Balance Ultra Light - shows 18% protein (what happened to I before E except after C?) I liked it because it doesn't use cellouse like most of the low protein low fat foods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmom Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 How much protein (and phosphorus) the dog is getting depends on how much of the food the dog needs to eat. Dry matter basis, fat content, calorie content factor into that. Most lower-protein foods are supplemented with calcium and phosphorus to maintain appropriate amounts for *healthy* dogs. So while you may find an off-the-shelf commercial food that is low in protein, it probably won't be low in phosphorus. Manufacturer's 1-800 can tell you the phosphorus content. Email works but is usually slower. Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatricksMom Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Can someone explain why comparing percentage levels isn't enough? I'm new to kidney issues and also looking for a good food that Patrick will actually eat. Quote Beth, Petey (8 September 2018- ), and Faith (22 March 2019). Godspeed Patrick (28 April 1999 - 5 August 2012), Murphy (23 June 2004 - 27 July 2013), Leo (1 May 2009 - 27 January 2020), and Henry (10 August 2010 - 7 August 2020), you were loved more than you can know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirsmom Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Can someone explain why comparing percentage levels isn't enough? I'm new to kidney issues and also looking for a good food that Patrick will actually eat. The percentage on the bag is generally the minimum amount so even if it says phosph. is 0.7% it can be a lot higher. I would call the company to find out the actual amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmom Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Can someone explain why comparing percentage levels isn't enough? I'm new to kidney issues and also looking for a good food that Patrick will actually eat. The percentage on the bag is generally the minimum amount so even if it says phosph. is 0.7% it can be a lot higher. I would call the company to find out the actual amount. Also, as noted earlier, the dog isn't likely to eat exactly the same amount of two different foods, due to differences in the nutritional/caloric profile of the foods. If you feed 1 lb of a .7% phosphorus food, the dog is getting more phosphorus than if you feed 3/4ths of a lb of a .7% phosphorus food. Moisture content of the food also matters, but most dry foods on the market are similar enough in that respect that you don't have to calculate dry matter basis unless you're swapping between kibble and canned. Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trudy Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 Moisture content of the food also matters, but most dry foods on the market are similar enough in that respect that you don't have to calculate dry matter basis unless you're swapping between kibble and canned. yep, most kibble kibble is 10%. Some will have higher % if they have softer bits of kibble in it instead of being all hard/crunchy kibble. We hit petsmart yesterday. Wow they have tons of food. Found several options that were a bit lower in protein, but really, I'm comfortable with the protein level in the current food, just need the phosphorus level from the manufacturer. We went through this with Ryan with a vet I trust and I may just email him again to see what he suggests. Jet's levels aren't that high and she'd passed on eating for 1.5 days prior - though she had eaten some dinner and breakfast before her vet apt. We'll check again in 3 months and this may all be for naught anyway. Just wanted to test liver and kidney values before we started her on stuff for her old bones. btw - Science Diet actually has a line of food now that doesn't scare me with ingredients And pea protein... never heard of it until this weekend. Need to look into that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tmgukcatfan Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Dog Food Advisor has lots of great information on every food imaginable. I used it when researching foods for my osteo dog, Thalion. It's very easy to use. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeylasMom Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Dog Food Advisor has lots of great information on every food imaginable. I used it when researching foods for my osteo dog, Thalion. It's very easy to use. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/ Unfortunately that site doesn't give phosphorus content. Maybe this chart will help? Quote Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart "The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2dogs4cats Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Can someone explain why comparing percentage levels isn't enough? I'm new to kidney issues and also looking for a good food that Patrick will actually eat. Depending on the stage of kidney disease, you may or may not need a low protein food. It was thought in the past that a low protein diet would help by not making the kidneys work as hard. Newer research says this is not the case. Trudy's vet is probably calculating protein needs and phosphorus levels based on weight and comparing levels on the bag is not enough. It's also important to give enough calcium to combat the phosphorus that the dog is getting. In the later stages, your dog will need additional calcium. Also, for kidney dogs, I recommend feeding canned food only or soaking dry food in water as they need the additional moisture. Its' not for everyone, but I also recommend a homemade diet as I did a lot of research and commercial diets really aren't the best for kidney problems. In her final stages, I fed a homemade diet and I supplemented calcium, Vitamin E and Chinese herbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryJane Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 If your dog has kidney issues in that they cannot successfully excrete the protein waste and it builds up in their blood (BUN/Creat level) - then they will need to have less protein but, a better protein (more usable). If your dog is spilling protein into the urine, then there is a problem with too much protein as it is not getting filtered correctly (protein on a dipstick). If your dog cannot concentrate the urine to put more waste into it (specific gravity) then there is also likely a kidney issue and the more protein that gets fed, the more liquid will need to be used to "process" the waste. You do need to watch the phosphorous. I have had two kidney diets formulated by a leading veterinary nutritionist and the bottom line was "less protein but better protein". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatricksMom Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Thank you for all the explanations. Well, kidney levels are doing much, much better with medication, but he's basically refusing to eat. He has a good appetite for anything new, for 2 days, then he doesn't want it anymore. We had another checkup today and she said at his age, give him what it takes to get him to eat and gain the weight back, if that happens then we can talk about trying to find a healthy food. Quote Beth, Petey (8 September 2018- ), and Faith (22 March 2019). Godspeed Patrick (28 April 1999 - 5 August 2012), Murphy (23 June 2004 - 27 July 2013), Leo (1 May 2009 - 27 January 2020), and Henry (10 August 2010 - 7 August 2020), you were loved more than you can know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2dogs4cats Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Thank you for all the explanations. Well, kidney levels are doing much, much better with medication, but he's basically refusing to eat. He has a good appetite for anything new, for 2 days, then he doesn't want it anymore. We had another checkup today and she said at his age, give him what it takes to get him to eat and gain the weight back, if that happens then we can talk about trying to find a healthy food. Yes, getting them to eat is a challenge. If you have a holistic vet nearby, you can try Chinese meds. It was what kept my girl eating and stopped the incontinence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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