Dog Behaviorist Advice?

[Echobelly1]

I just spoke to a dog behaviorist in my area about Gila's fears (see "the sky is falling" thread). He spent almost half an hour on the phone with me explaining his methods (one time home visit, approx. 3 hours, training us to instill confidence in the dog). His methods sound a lot like Cesar's (not my favorite trainer), relying on body language, no treats or clickers. I'm tempted to try it (at this point, I'll try anything, Gila spends most of the day in darkest corner of the bedroom staring at the ceiling fan) except it's pretty pricey, $800. He gives lifetime phone support for that fee also (I'm not sure who's lifetime). He also suggested we take Gila off Clomacalm, she's been on it 2 1/2 weeks and has gotten worse. Either the drug hasn't started working, or she's experiencing side effects. Does anyone who has experience with behaviorists have any advice? I get a lot of conflicting advice here, but that's good, it helps me look at problems from all angles!

[NeylasMom]

I suggest you find a behaviorist through this site: IIABC

 

It shouldn't be that pricey unless you are working with a veterinary behaviorist, and I would be very wary of someone who uses methods you aren't completely comfortable with. You certainly have a right to do this, but if he's in your home with your $800 check in his pocket and you start to feel uncomfortable with this methods, are you going to ask him to leave? Tell him you don't like the methods he's using and ask him to choose others? I would instead find someone who you feel comfortable with in advance, both just by the vibe you get when talking on the phone with them and in their descriptions of their methods.

 

Choosing a good behaviorist when you have a dog that has rather serious behavioral issues isn't something to take lightly imo. The wrong methods can have a detrimental effect on your dog or your relationship with your dog.

 

Also, if Chlomicalm isn't working, it may be the wrong medication. For a dog with fear issues, I would try Prozac (Reconcile). Although it can take 2-4 weeks for the dog to have a positive effect so you may need to give the Chlomicalm a bit longer (and consider whether she's getting worse for another reason).

 

You could also consider a veterinary behaviorist if you think there may be a medical component to the fear. I would at least do a full thyroid panel with MSU to rule out hypothyroidism beforehand.

 

Sorry if I'm repeating anything or telling you things you've already done, I'm not familiar with your other thread. Good luck.

[mychip1]

Not sure where you are located - but I believe they also do FAX consults, etc....I used Dr. Nicholas Doddman at Tufts University for my Jack. He is a veterinary behavioralist and does not have a "Milan" approach on many things.

 

He does believe in pharmacology where he deems it necessary.....but the consult (and even when I went for an on-site appointment) is far less expensive than what you are talking about. There are others on his staff as well with different areas of expertes.

[Echobelly1]

It's funny you mention a thyroid panel, because Gila is on Soloxine for hypothyroidism. We had it tested when we got her 4 months ago, since it seems to be a controversial diagnosis in greyhounds. The vet said her numbers were perfect. I did ask if the hypothyroidism could have anything to do with her fears, as I'd read on this forum that it can be a symptom, but the vet had never heard of that.

[christinepi]

I agree with Neylasmom. Try to find someone you feel comfortable with. You don't want to have regrets later. Not to mention the $$.

[Echobelly1]

@neylasmom: I went to the IIABC website, and there aren't any behaviorists in our area that do home visits. I think it's important for the behaviorist to meet the dog and us in our own environment.

I'll give the Clomacalm more time to see if it's working, but I did a little research, and it seems to mainly be used to treat S.A., that is the opposite of what Gila has. She wants to be all by herself in a dark room with no one around. I think Prozac may be more appropriate, if it comes to that. I've considered switching vets, but the thought of trying to get her into the car and then into a vets office is too much right now.

[JAJ2010]

Clomicalm did nothing for us. Try some other long term Med coupled with a heavy dose of xanax twice a day until the long term Med kicks in. If your vet isn't familiar or is resisting, Find A New Vet.

 

I feel so guilty about the 2 years Sunshine lived in on and off anxiety because I had non greyhound savvy vets. Our current one worked at NGAP for a while and had Sunshine figured out in a few months. While we were figuring her long term Med out the Xanax had her in perfect shape within a day. To test the long term Med you would slowly wean off Xanax and keep tabs on behavior changes. Usually do this after a full month on the long term Med.

 

No type of training will help if the dogs brain is in a high fear state. You can also do some research on extreme canine anxiety. :-) it will help you understand what the pup is going through and you can form a rehab schedule yourself once the fear is kept in check

[Echobelly1]

@JAJ2010- I went to my vet last week and begged for some xanax for Gila. They said they would never prescribe it. Unfortunately, Florida is ground zero for prescription drug abuse, and they know they would have tons of people coming in claiming their pet needed it. I'm going to wait the full month to be sure the Clomacalm isn't working, then go to another vet to try to get prozac for her. I think you're right about training not being effective if the dog is in a high fear state. I don't know how a trainer trains a dog not to be afraid of the pictures on the wall and the ceiling fixtures and fans and the wind blowing and shadows moving.

[greysmom]

I have a spooky dog much like yours, so I know what you're dealing with now. It's hard to watch them have to live like that.

 

The only way training such as you describe can work is is the dog's mind is calm enough to accept it. And I also have huge doubts whether any method like the one you describe would work. Your girl is totally not there yet. The only way to get her brain right is to find the right drug, or combination of drugs, that will balance the physical chemical imbalance. Some drugs work for some dogs, some don't, but you don't know until you try. It sounds like the clomicalm isn't working. You should wean her of this dose and try a different SSRI drug.

 

In our own experience, clomicalm and prozac were equally ineffective. We saw a near immediate improvement when we started Cash on Paxil. All three are SSRI anti anxiety drugs, but all three work differently on different parts of the brain imbalance problem. They all take up to several weeks to achieve a clinically effective dosage, but after that, stay relatively stable. Xanax (alprazolam) is a benzodiazeprein (sic). It's fast acting and fast metabolizing, and is mostly used for short term fear management - fireworks and thunderstorms, for example. It can be used in conjunction with SSRIs to give immediate relief while the SSRI builds up to a clinical level in the bloodstream.

 

Cash gets 37 mgs of paxil daily, and we add in .5-1 mg of xanax for 4th of July and when we have bad storms. And as I said, we had to try two other drugs before we found one that works for her. She's not completely "normal" and she never will be, but she can actually deal with and enjoy about 95% of life now, instead of hiding in our bedroom all the time. She has even let special friends pet her and give her treats, and she hasn't refused to eat in many months. We do daily reconditoning training, and have her do obedience commands to help build her confidence. Commands such as "watch me" and tricks like "catch" have been particularly helpful for her.

 

If your vet is resistant, or seems unfamiliar, please ask for a referral or find another vet. Your adoption group should be able to help you find one familair with your problem and able to help.

 

ETA - Find another vet. Their excuse seems flimsy, and if not helping a dog in need as much as your dog is, is inexusable as far as I'm concerned. It's not like they don't know the state she's in and should know you're not asking to abuse the drug. (Unless you are, then, nevermind ) Grrrrrr. Makes me crazy.

Edited June 7, 2012 by greysmom

[Echobelly1]

@greysmom- Thanks for all the info! I'll look into Paxil. I wasn't looking forward to putting her on prozac, having had an intolerance to it myself. It's so hard to tell if a dog is experiencing side-effects. I was surprised the vet wouldn't prescribe xanax as well, when i brought her in for a check-up shortly after we got her (she was even better then) I had to carry her from the car, kick the vets door till someone opened it, and hold her in the office to try to calm her shaking. When everyone saw me walk in, they assumed the dog had been hit by a car.

Luckily she isn't afraid of thunderstorms (we have some doozies down here), we live in a rural area and don't hear many fireworks, but we do hear gunshots, and those don't seem to bother her either. Her fears are more visual.

[Batmom]

It's funny you mention a thyroid panel, because Gila is on Soloxine for hypothyroidism. We had it tested when we got her 4 months ago, since it seems to be a controversial diagnosis in greyhounds. The vet said her numbers were perfect. I did ask if the hypothyroidism could have anything to do with her fears, as I'd read on this forum that it can be a symptom, but the vet had never heard of that.

 

If she doesn't need thyroid meds, getting them could be contributing to her fears. Makes for a dog who can't relax.

 

How was she tested in the beginning? And, is the vet using greyhound ranges or all-breed ranges for her testing now?

Edited June 7, 2012 by Batmom

[Echobelly1]

I'm pretty sure the vet is using all-breed ranges, I don't remember the numbers, though. He is aware of the thyroid issue with greyhounds, our last greyhound was diagnosed w/ hypothyroidism, I was against treatment and referred him to some of the studies w/ greyhounds. He actually read them but still felt a low dose of soloxine was in order.

[Batmom]

But how was she diagnosed? If she didn't have a significantly elevated TSH (and an exceptionally low or unmeasurable fT4), she shouldn't have been put on medication.

 

 

Usually you want the dog in the home for at least 6 months before you even bother to test -- stress can suppress thyroid measures, and you would not want to supplement in that case as it would make matters worse.

 

 

 

Most vets STILL try to diagnose hypothyroidism on the basis of a T4 alone (bad idea in ANY breed), and most vets STILL try to medicate greyhounds up into the range of other breeds. Could be 80% of your problem right there.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Batmom

[cleptogrey]

the trainer i have used for many many years worked w/ a grey who was successfully brought out of the closet- litterally- that's where stella hid! along w/ that she was in pain loosing her nails to slo. but thru clicker training- positive reinforcement and an owner who wouldn't give up stella did come out of her shell- a little. it was lots and lots of hard work and endless patience. i give her owner credit- she stuck w/ her dog thu thick and thin and sat around in many a class and just watched. i remember the day i brought emily into the same clicker class as stella. her owner was in shock- she never saw a greyhound w/ her tail up and wagging. but stella did come around and taking her out- which was initially a tramma was the best thing. she was able to go on her short walks and felt safe in class.

 

i hope you find someone well versed in clicker training, your pup sounds like an excellent canidate-and that you vet cross referrences her blood work and checks it on a regular basis. batmom has touched upon something worth while researching. check out dr. suzanne stark(that's her name, right gt people?)web site. i think she is listed under the greyhound gang as well. lots of good info published there.

 

best of luck

 

btw- when the stress was relieved the slo subsided.

Edited June 8, 2012 by cleptogrey

[JJNg]

Choosing a good behaviorist when you have a dog that has rather serious behavioral issues isn't something to take lightly imo. The wrong methods can have a detrimental effect on your dog or your relationship with your dog.

 

You've gotten some excellent advice here, and I can't emphasize NeylasMom's point above enough. Being careful about any trainer or behaviorist you work with is absolutely critical. Unfortunately, IME, there are probably more bad and incompetent professionals out there than there are good ones.

 

You could also consider a veterinary behaviorist if you think there may be a medical component to the fear.

 

Also wanted to add that a veterinary behaviorist can be very helpful even if there is no medical component to the fear. If her behavior issues are severe enough to need the aid of medication (and it sounds like they are), a veterinary behaviorist has the most knowledge and training about utilizing drugs to their full potential. Finding the right dose and combination of drugs can make a huge difference, and a vet behaviorist can provide the best guidance in this area.

 

Not sure where in FL you are, but there are several board certified veterinary behaviorists in that state. Here's a link to the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists website listing their members.

[MaryJane]

But how was she diagnosed? If she didn't have a significantly elevated TSH (and an exceptionally low or unmeasurable fT4), she shouldn't have been put on medication.

 

 

Usually you want the dog in the home for at least 6 months before you even bother to test -- stress can suppress thyroid measures, and you would not want to supplement in that case as it would make matters worse.

 

 

 

Most vets STILL try to diagnose hypothyroidism on the basis of a T4 alone (bad idea in ANY breed), and most vets STILL try to medicate greyhounds up into the range of other breeds. Could be 80% of your problem right there.

 

 

I agree here - this is staring to sound like a thyroid medicine overdose. Before getting any other meds into the picture go back to the vet and talk about getting her off the thyroid medicines and redoing blood work. Do not stop the medicines yourself without vet assist as she would need to be weaned gradually.

 

 

edited to add -- I suggest that you do a search for "thyroid medicine overdose symptoms" and you'll find a whole host of symptoms including anxiety. Also, how much thyroid supplement is she on?

Edited June 8, 2012 by MaryJane

[NeylasMom]

Also wanted to add that a veterinary behaviorist can be very helpful even if there is no medical component to the fear. If her behavior issues are severe enough to need the aid of medication (and it sounds like they are), a veterinary behaviorist has the most knowledge and training about utilizing drugs to their full potential. Finding the right dose and combination of drugs can make a huge difference, and a vet behaviorist can provide the best guidance in this area.

 

Not sure where in FL you are, but there are several board certified veterinary behaviorists in that state. Here's a link to the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists website listing their members.

I was actually originally going to say this, but then I thought you might have better success just finding a qualified behaviorist, but especially given the information you've shared about the thyroid supplementation and your difficulty finding someone on the IIABC site, this may be your best bet.

 

Please also don't dismiss Prozac because you had issues with it. It's helped a lot of dogs with various issues, and it may very well be the drug that will help your girl if the thyroid meds turn out to not be the problem. If you do use it, start with Reconcile, and only consider switching to generic Fluoxitine once you know it's working.

[philospher77]

Hi! I can relate to where you are. Katie, as beautiful and smart and clever as she is, came to me terribly noise-phobic, and terrified of being outside. If I were you, I would be calling around to some other trainers/behaviorists and seeing if you can find someone you feel more comfortable with. This Yahoo group http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/shy-k9s/ could probably point you to some good leads. It will take a few days to get approved, so if you want, I can ask there and see who they recommend in your area.

 

Oh, and I have Katie on Prozac, and admit to being a little surprised at how easy it is out here in California to get that prescribed and filled. 15 bucks for a 40-day supply at WalMart. It makes a huge difference in how Katie feels and behaves, but the time until a loading dose built up was hard. It tends to make her lethargic and depressed, and then one day she is just "all right, I feel fine now!"

 

Please also don't dismiss Prozac because you had issues with it. It's helped a lot of dogs with various issues, and it may very well be the drug that will help your girl if the thyroid meds turn out to not be the problem. If you do use it, start with Reconcile, and only consider switching to generic Fluoxitine once you know it's working.

 

Just curious why you recommend starting with the Reconcile and switching to the generic, instead of starting with the generic? I started Katie with the generic, and didn't have any issues with it.

[Guest Angelique]

I'd be skeptical of any ONE TIME "3 hr" solution or "3 hr training" session (especially at that cost). Most behaviorists I have worked with emphasize the importance of regular sessions, and constant checking and feedback on the dog. I've even had a few to foster for a week or a month with sever cases until they get through the most serious/complicated part of whatever issue the dog is having.

If there is any doubt in your mind, don't do it. There are many methods and you know your dog best at this point. Some behaviorists are ethical enough to tell you that their approach is not ideal for your dog, but many won't or aren't open minded enough to see.

[GeorgeofNE]

It's funny you mention a thyroid panel, because Gila is on Soloxine for hypothyroidism. We had it tested when we got her 4 months ago, since it seems to be a controversial diagnosis in greyhounds. The vet said her numbers were perfect. I did ask if the hypothyroidism could have anything to do with her fears, as I'd read on this forum that it can be a symptom, but the vet had never heard of that.

 

My guess is that she doesn't NEED Soloxine. Very few Greyhounds really have a thyroid "problem" even if their numbers are off, or "abnormal" when considering another breed of dog. Absent any of the COMMON symptoms of thyroid problems (hair/skin issues, weight issues) it's really more likely than not she doesn't need the drug.

 

There is a very informative article on this very issue on the OSU web site in the Greyhound Health and Wellness area. You might consider printing it and giving it to your vet.

[Echobelly1]

@ GeorgeofNE- Gila was with a foster (actually two, the first one couldn't keep her because she was so fearful) for 6 months before we got her. She had already been put on Soloxine. I found the original bloodwork, and her T4 levels were .5, at the low end for a greyhound. It doesn't look like a TSH was done. Some sites I've checked claim that excessive shyness and fear is a symptom of low thyroid, others claim it's a symptom of soloxine overdose. I appreciate all the info I'm getting, but it sure does get confusing! My wife nixed the $800 behaviorist. We're waiting the month to make sure the clomacalm isn't working (another week), and will then take her to the original vet the foster group used to try to get a different medication and discuss the thyroid issue.

[NeylasMom]

I absolutely would re-evaluate the thyroid issue based on what you just said. You will probably need to wean her off the soloxine, then after a period of time, do a full thyroid panel (recommend with MSU if you can swing it) and look at free T4 and TSH. And of course, if her behavior improves in that time, you have your answer. Did the foster home report the same behavioral issues and if so, did they notice any change around the introduction of soloxine? Also, did they notice signs of hypothyroidism that let them to look at the T4 value, or did they just happen to see it in routine blood work? I would want those answers as well although I think moving forward it's best if you find a vet you can trust and work with them based on what you observe/see in test results now.

 

Please also don't dismiss Prozac because you had issues with it. It's helped a lot of dogs with various issues, and it may very well be the drug that will help your girl if the thyroid meds turn out to not be the problem. If you do use it, start with Reconcile, and only consider switching to generic Fluoxitine once you know it's working.

 

Just curious why you recommend starting with the Reconcile and switching to the generic, instead of starting with the generic? I started Katie with the generic, and didn't have any issues with it.

Because a veterinary behaviorist I've worked with on several foster cases had seen that not all dogs do as well on the Fluoxitine as they do on the Reconcile so she recommends starting with the reconcile and then switching so that if that turns out to be true for that particular dog, you would see the difference rather than never knowing that Prozac could have helped. Reconcile is also dosed appropriately for dogs while the Fluoxitine comes in capsules that aren't incremented ideally for dogs. She also recommended starting with half of the dosage the Reconcile manufacturers recommend as she felt the dose was too high for most dogs.

Edited June 8, 2012 by NeylasMom

[JAJ2010]

I wouldn't accept no for an answer to Xanax if it's that bad. Personally keeping a dog in that state of anxiety is abuse and inexcusable, for a vet. Find another vet quickly ;-)

 

The long term drug we have settled on is amayriptalyn which is probably spelled wrong! LOL

 

Sunshine is also on thyroid mess along with the anxiety meds. It's a combo that works for her, so don't be too quick to rule that out

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Personally I am very anti-medication. My girl Olive was a very terrified girl when we first got her. If someone simply looked at her, she would start looking around for an exit. If she was in her crate, she made herself part of the back of it. If you touched her rear, she would scream. Moving things, sounds, etc. she was freaked out. I did a lot of reading and cannot remember the specific books that described similar issues, but this is my solution:

 

1) hand feeding for nearly 2 months, every meal. She was so fearful of men that I had to sit on the floor, put my hand behind my back and not move while she ate a handful of food. As soon as I moved my hand to get another scoop, she ran away. This lasted nearly 3 weeks before I could even start to move my hand around to the front of my body.

2) harness and walks, every day. While she was freaked out about everything outside, I kept a handlers lead on the WWW harness and kept calm and ignored the behavior.

3) allowed her access to her crate any time she wants, but blocked the hallways off so she had to stay in the front of the house with people. (crates are in the dining/living room)

 

The number one thing that helped was the hand feeding. She had no trust of me, as our bond grew, she would look to me for strength. Personally I feel that more than 50% of the issue is with your reaction to their fear. They feed off your emiotions. If you feel sorry for the hound, it shows. If you are feeling sorry, then you are transmitting encouragement for the behavior. I have also had a few fosters in my house that are terrified of my house fan (big box fan in the ceiling that is very noisy), ceiling fans, etc. All the times, I do not react to the hound, I let the hound act the way they do, and treat them as nothing different than any of my other hounds. I have 3 of my own (one of which being Olive).

 

Olive today still has her issues, but she has made great leaps and bounds. Does she enjoy M&G's, nope, so she doesnt go. There are times when I do take her to outdoor events, and she is treated no differently. I do give random strangers treats to give her so she can focus on the positive, but otherwise, nothing different than my other hounds. I am calm and non-reactive to her fears, and I firmly believe that this will do more than any medication can. We have no idea what the medication is actually doing to our hounds, they cannot tell us, so how can we just take medication that was developed for humans and give it to dogs? They cannot tell us if they feel suicidal, if they have other issues such as voices or disturbing dreams and such, but we assume we know.

 

I know this post sounds judgemental, it is not meant to be disrespectful as you are obviously comming from a place of love for your hound. Please heed the advise of Batmom, she REALLY knows what she is talking about, and maybe give some thought as to medicating a species that we have no way of knowing exactly what is going on in their head.

 

Chad

[greysmom]

Chad brings up good points, but I would also point out that doctors don't really know why and how many anti-anxiety meds work for people. They "think" they know, but....

 

If you were sick with a physical/medical issue would you not take a simple pill that could help? Like someone said above, I feel that keeping a dog in a constant state of fear - when I can help her not be - borders on abuse.

 

There are many reputable behavioral ways of dealing with high anxiety dogs (though the one you described isn't). None of them worked with my girl. She wouldn't eat for days at a time. If you physically put food in her mouth she would spit it out. She would literally fall down because she was shaking so much if we left the house, even to the front yard. Reconditioning was not even possible for her because her brain couldn't receive it.

 

Once we got her brain right, she blossomed immediately. More social, more playful, more affectionate. She was able to learn commands and follow instructions. We could work on exposing her to the things that make her anxious. She's never going to be a M&G dog, but she doesn't stress herself out to the point of being physically ill when we have people over anymore. She can leave the house and go for car rides, and on vacation with us, and actually enjoy it.

 

And a comment on the thyroid issue. One of ours came to us on thyroid meds and I never questioned it for several years. He was hyper, couldn't hold his weight, couldn't focus on anything, was borderline anxious in certain situations. Through reading here and doing some research, we took him off supplementation. His unsupplented T4 was 0.2 when we tested it later. But his behavior issues cleared up, he was able to keep weight on, and he was a much happier dog. Readings and numbers only make sense in light of each individual dog.