Ace

[Guest Greytluv]

My GF's vet prescribed Ace for her grey's anxiety. He weighs 67 lbs and she gave him 12.5 mg. He was still panting like crazy but was walking like a drunken sailor. He finally calmed down after about 4 hrs. I didn't like what it did to him. Also, it was expensive.

 

Does any one give Valium or Xanax for anxiety? I thought that would be a better choice. When I read about Ace it said it wasn't an anti-anxiety drug it just made them not show signs if it. I think that would make it worse

[Guest jbbuzby]

Ace is hardcore. At my office, we only prescribe that for the most severe of cases.

 

My Ferguson is on Fluoxetine (20mg daily), and that has helped a fair amount with his SA, along with rehabilitation and a more consistent schedule.

 

What kind of anxiety is your pup experiencing?

 

Ace, if I remember correctly, is a tranquilizer. I am not into those (and neither is anyone at my office), because studies have shown that their brains are still going a mile a minute, even if their bodies can't.

 

I recently learned that melatonin has great benefits for anxiety with dogs and has far fewer symptoms than other tranqs. Try looking it up on a google search.

 

Surprisingly, I've also had good results with rescue remedy on top of the fluoxetine, and for my other grey with car rides. Just a few ideas, but for my two cents, the vets at my office tend to stay away from Ace when possible.

[Guest Greytluv]

All the herbal one didn't work with him.

 

My GF's on here so hopefully she'll chime in

Edited February 6, 2012 by Greytluv

[gryhnd_adoptee]

Our Tessie came to us with ACE from her former vet becasue she did not ride in the car well. We have since worked with her a LOT and she now rides wonderfully without more than a Dramamine for really long rides.

 

Anyway, our vet said not to use ACE going forward because it can raise blood pressure , which would cause a whole set of new issues of its own.

[Guest GreyMom1998]

Hi, Terry posted this for me because I forgot my password and username.

 

Anyway, Boz has anxiety when he is ANYWHERE but in the house. He shakes and shivers even just walking over to the greenbelt in my townhome complex. So walks are severly limited.

He is the absolute worst of all the 6 greys I have had. He is thunderphobic, noise phobic, just the neighbor's hose washing his truck upset him this weekend, garbage trucks, you name it.

When we go on suv rides you'd think I was in a downpour because he slings slobber all over, and never settles down.

I have tried Five Flower, Azmira Abandonment, Benadryl (2 don't even phase him) and a host of other things I don't even remeber as I've had him 2 yrs and it's getting worse.

 

I lost his companion grey, Emma the end of Aug but she never calmed him down either. I have an Iggy, Rosie, so he isn't all alone. Another grey at this point is out of the question as finances are a BIG issue.

 

I am at my wits end with all the homeopathic stuff as they don't work. I was hoping to get valium but my vet used to use Ace on her grey so she prescribed them for me.

I don't like what I read about the dogs still being terrified while on Ace, as well as the adverse side effects. I was wanting to try doggie xanax or valium to take the edge off when we do go out.

 

I'm going to try the melatonine tho maybe on a daily dosage. I just left a meaasage for my vet for the dosage.

 

Any more ideas would be greytly appreciated.

[jamngrey]

Greys are WAY sensitive to ACE I personally would not use it. Good luck

[macoduck]

Have you tried Clomicalm?

[Remolacha]

I tried Ace for Fletcher's fireworks anxiety, and I really did not like the way it affected him. I convinced my vet to give him Valium, and that worked much better. He was still a little upset, but not nearly as bad. I know some people have used Ace successfully for fireworks and/or thunder, but it didn't work for us.

[Guest GreyMom1998]

Have you tried Clomicalm?

 

My friend gave me some of that when they didn't work on her dog. So I tried one. It didn't work but I think it has a loading period because it is basicly an anti-depressant. I doubt my vet would give me a prescription for it I am learning that my vet is very, very conservative in her treatments. She wouldn't even give me the dosage for Melatonin tonight and suggested I try Arc Naturals' 'Happy Traveler' Pet Calmer. The ingredients are Valerian, Camomile, Kava Kava, St John's Wart. The only problem with that is you can't use it long term due to the Valerian.

 

So the Ace is for long road trips only, at this point.

[JJNg]

Does any one give Valium or Xanax for anxiety? I thought that would be a better choice. When I read about Ace it said it wasn't an anti-anxiety drug it just made them not show signs if it.

While acepromazine was commonly used by many vets for anxiety, it is no longer recommended by board certified behaviorist for this purpose for exactly the reasons you state above. Benzodiazepines (like Valium and Xanax) are now the drugs of choice if you need a situational anti-anxiety medication. Since Boz is noise phobic, I would definitely not use ace as it increases sensitivity to noise.

 

If he has generalized anxiety in a number of situations, it may be worth looking into a 'background' anti-anxiety medication like Prozac or Clomicalm on a daily basis. And yes, these can take several weeks to show an effect. As with any long term medication, there are risks for side-effects, and monitoring needs to be done with regular bloodwork.

 

The fact that your vet is insisting on acepromazine over a true anti-anxiety medication indicates to me that she is not very knowledgeable about behavior. This is a fairly new field in veterinary medicine, and many vets are not familiar with it. But if your vet is not willing to work with you, you may need to find another vet, even if just for this problem. Or ask for a referral to a veterinary behaviorist if there's one in your area. If your vet does not keep up-to-date on the latest treatment options, it may be time to look elsewhere for the sake of your dog.

 

If you think your vet may be open to new information, here's a good article by a vet, with links to additional information on this topic.

[Guest CampWhippet]

Ace, if I remember correctly, is a tranquilizer. I am not into those (and neither is anyone at my office), because studies have shown that their brains are still going a mile a minute, even if their bodies can't.

 

 

Ace will calm a pup's actions but not the brain, you are 100% correct. I've used it for dogs that will break teeth off in a crate or get so worked up they could hurt themselves, but it is used in conjunction with some other behavior modification and stopped as soon as possible. Using ACE as a long-term solution as a stand-alone treatment is probably not what I would do.

[Guest BrianRke]

I was given Ace for Diamond's storm anxiety and I hated what it did to her. Another vet switched her to Xanax which works so much better without all those horrible side effects. She takes 3mg b4 a storm.

[tbhounds]

I just used Xanax on my girl for travel purposes (OSU). She was having an absolute meltdown during the trip--gave her 2mgs and within 15 minutes she calmed down but, never showed any "drunken" signs. Worked super well for her.

[Guest KennelMom]

My GF's vet prescribed Ace for her grey's anxiety. He weighs 67 lbs and she gave him 12.5 mg. He was still panting like crazy but was walking like a drunken sailor. He finally calmed down after about 4 hrs. I didn't like what it did to him. Also, it was expensive.

 

Does any one give Valium or Xanax for anxiety? I thought that would be a better choice. When I read about Ace it said it wasn't an anti-anxiety drug it just made them not show signs if it. I think that would make it worse

 

 

I've seen a few greyhounds have a pretty bad trip on ace...It'd be my last choice, especially for anxiety.

 

We've used valium quite successfully in a few dogs that have acute anxiety episodes, usually triggered by specific things (ie, thunderstorm). I really like it (for the dogs, not for me ) and we generally keep some on hand...it's pretty quick acting, I've never seen a dog have a bad reaction to it...at worst it just doesn't have any effect and I don't really see any long term, negative side effects after a dosage.

Edited February 7, 2012 by KennelMom

[Guest Greytluv]

 

You guys are the best!!

[GeorgeofNE]

Have you tried Clomicalm?

 

My friend gave me some of that when they didn't work on her dog. So I tried one. It didn't work but I think it has a loading period because it is basicly an anti-depressant. I doubt my vet would give me a prescription for it I am learning that my vet is very, very conservative in her treatments. She wouldn't even give me the dosage for Melatonin tonight and suggested I try Arc Naturals' 'Happy Traveler' Pet Calmer. The ingredients are Valerian, Camomile, Kava Kava, St John's Wart. The only problem with that is you can't use it long term due to the Valerian.

 

So the Ace is for long road trips only, at this point.

 

 

Find a new vet.

 

The level of anxiety you describe for TWO YEARS is not something that some silly herbal concoction is going to fix. She should be open to working with you.

 

At one point, in a course of treatment I wanted to try but my vet disagreed with, she asked me to initial her report that said she didn't believe it was a beneficial plan, and I was happy to do so. But it's MY dog, my money, and if she won't work with me, I can take my business elsewhere. I don't just pull my ideas out of a hat--and she knows that. Maybe I'm lucky? But I've never had a vet flat out refuse a reasonable course of treatment as yours seems to be.

 

Clomicalm can take weeks to work, so giving your dog one pill wasn't going to do anything.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Just a thought, when she is in the car, maybe the anxiety is caused by motion sickness? Ginger snap cookies are great to help with this issue, as is dramamine (dont know what the dose would be).

 

Another question, what type of behavioral techniques have you tried? Drugs are good, but unless you address the actual behavior, nothing with change.

[greytlucy]

In January I decided we need pharmaceutical help with our standard poodle after trying almost 2 years of consistent behavior modification and what seemed like every holistic/homeopathic product on the market(some helped, some didn't but nothing every really got us over the "hump" so to speak). He is very high stress, high anxiety along with an OCD obsession with all things that move that produces behaviors such as shadow chasing and lunging uncontrollably after cars on leash.

 

Anyway, I took him to a board certified behavorial vet to help me work out how to approach using meds with him(my regular vets agreed with this approach). We started with Clomicalm which does have a loading period but we saw within the first week it wasn't going to work as he started challenging us which is not typical behavior for him. We then went to fluoxetine(prozac) and he's been on that for about a month now. We went from 20mg daily to 30 mg daily last week and are waiting to see how this work.

 

in the middle of this we moved which of course introduced new stress. Poor poodle has now added a fear of his reflection in the low-e windows in our new house to his bag of tricks and he was really really stressed last week. The behavioral vet suggested we add clonidine to the fluoxetine at least in the short term to help him through the stress of moving and the new environment. He's been more at his baseline the last couple days so this seems to be working

 

Through this all we stay consistent with the training and behavior modificaiton we do with him. We'll see if it makes a difference overall...again too much other stuff going on right now to say.

 

My point in all this is I'm really glad I"m working with a bahavioral vet to sort this out. She's very knowledgeable on the drugs, their applications, etc. Has wide experience in just this thing. She's also been great for follow up on the phone and over email as we've had day to day changes in our situation(ie an email at night to say I felt the clomicalm was backfiring as we were dealing with behaviors leaning toward aggression resulted in an 8AM phone call to stop the drug immediately...she's been very easy to reach and very responsive to our questions).

 

If you have an ACVB certified behavioralist in your area I'd definitely recommend consulting them for help. These drugs are so powerful really, I wanted to be sure when we made the decision we had to explore this option that I was working with someone who really understood their use. I've felt better about the decision due to our experience given the experiences we've had by going this route.

[Guest GreyMom1998]

Hi, I have always been attracted to the shy boys. It has been my experience with my 4 shy boys that exposure was the best 'medicine'. So we went on walks everyday and met new people and things. Altho they never really got past their basic inate shyness they did quite well. With Boz just walking across our little street is too much for him. He shakes and shivers and pants so badly you'd think that he was having a doggie heart attack and walking into hell at the same time. So we have limited exposing him to the 'outside world'. Which I think was wrong.

I have since found out that Boz never made it to the track and he went from the farm into a blood bank. I got him at 3y4m. His last kennel mate at the bank was a bossy female and I am told he always was at the back of the kennel.

In my experience it usually takes at a minimum about 6mo for a grey to really get at least semi-comfortable to home life. So I just thought 'giving him time' would be the best thing to do. But he isn't getting any better.

I may be doing something wrong but I never really 'trained' a dog such as Boz. He is so sensative that he will shrink (like cowering) from me if he has the smallest thought that I might hurt him. Just a raised voice in the house is enough for him to go curl up on his bed. As for rewards he won't take them if he is in his 'bad place' in his head. He still has moments that he has a hard time taking treats from even my hand. So that limits treat rewards.

Is there a book/training method out there or training method that would help with such an extremly sensitive/anxiety prone boy? All I can find is training for SA which Boz doesn't have. I am now retired so my resources are under constant strain. I would NEVER return him but I want to make his life so much easier. It breaks my heart that he can't experience what my other dogs had.

I'm not a fan of the ACE. I'm going to start from scratch and go back to the over the counter products for his day to day coping.

[Batmom]

How long have you had him now?

 

Ace does work for some dogs but even in those cases it's more of a single incident treatment than something you would use long term to help with behavior modification.

 

A couple of things that are helpful with fearful dogs, that many of the books etc. tend to forget about:

 

1- Don't look directly at the dog. Shoulder toward the dog and gaze directed off to the side. Less threatening .

 

2- "Aaaaaah" or "Uh-uh" instead of "NO!"

 

3- Basic "obedience" training. In quotes because it doesn't have to be traditional stuff. Just teach a couple things that you can practice every day, same time, same place. That routine can be very helpful to distract and calm the dog in times of mild fear. Can be things like shaking hands, turning in a circle, taking a bow instead of sit, down, heel.

 

4- Move slowly and lackadaisically. Striding purposefully through the house can get you an "OMG, what's going to happen now, YIKES!" response, while meandering off to take a shower gives the dog a chance to figure out, "Oh, no harm here."

 

5- Spend time around the edges of scary things. Can be hard to do in winter if you live where it's cold but can be really helpful. For example, if dog is frightened of traffic, I try to pick the spot where dog just begins to get on edge about it and stop there; hang out for awhile -- standing, sitting, doesn't matter; just hang out and watch, maybe have a little cheerful conversation, maybe practice our "obedience" right there or one step back. After a couple days of practicing that, maybe we can get a step or two closer. This can be really boring for the person but if you take your time and get through 2-3 scary things this way, you usually end up with a dog that is less likely to freak out over other new things -- you've taught him what to do in those cases.

 

Best luck with your pup.

[greytlucy]

Hi, I have always been attracted to the shy boys. It has been my experience with my 4 shy boys that exposure was the best 'medicine'. So we went on walks everyday and met new people and things. Altho they never really got past their basic inate shyness they did quite well. With Boz just walking across our little street is too much for him. He shakes and shivers and pants so badly you'd think that he was having a doggie heart attack and walking into hell at the same time. So we have limited exposing him to the 'outside world'. Which I think was wrong.

I have since found out that Boz never made it to the track and he went from the farm into a blood bank. I got him at 3y4m. His last kennel mate at the bank was a bossy female and I am told he always was at the back of the kennel.

In my experience it usually takes at a minimum about 6mo for a grey to really get at least semi-comfortable to home life. So I just thought 'giving him time' would be the best thing to do. But he isn't getting any better.

I may be doing something wrong but I never really 'trained' a dog such as Boz. He is so sensative that he will shrink (like cowering) from me if he has the smallest thought that I might hurt him. Just a raised voice in the house is enough for him to go curl up on his bed. As for rewards he won't take them if he is in his 'bad place' in his head. He still has moments that he has a hard time taking treats from even my hand. So that limits treat rewards.

Is there a book/training method out there or training method that would help with such an extremly sensitive/anxiety prone boy? All I can find is training for SA which Boz doesn't have. I am now retired so my resources are under constant strain. I would NEVER return him but I want to make his life so much easier. It breaks my heart that he can't experience what my other dogs had.

I'm not a fan of the ACE. I'm going to start from scratch and go back to the over the counter products for his day to day coping.

 

 

I understand and totally empathize. If you see my recent post in Training on the ceiling fan thread I had a greyhound that lived under a desk for a year she was so scared of them. We got her through that without meds. We also got the greyhound pup through his separation anxiety without meds. Our poodle is a whole different ball of wax as the saying goes. He came to us at 14 weeks old and has been high stress, high anxiety from the beginning. We were sure because he was so young we could get through this with patience, consistency, and training but he just can't get to the point to allow himself to relax enough....he just gets to overloaded from sensory stimulus. It's a hard life for him and us. It's also expensive(he's had recurring health issues that have drained our pocketbook...and added to his stress making the behavioral issues worse).

 

I had a falling out with my holistic vet over my decision to use drug therapy with him but...when I had to put him on robaxin for a muscle strain for a couple days I couldn't believe the difference in him and the progress we were making in our walks and around the house with shadow chasing. That's when I decided maybe we needed to explore these options(since clearly druggin him with a muscle relaxer long-term really wasn't the way to go!).

 

We got up early while the world was still quiet and took him for a walk this morning....we had great success with the two dogs he saw from a distance- being able to call him and have him look away and reward him without lunging and barking. He only barked at one car out of six we saw this morning. He checked in with me every time I called his name. This was the best walk we've had in entire time we've had him(doesn't means he's "fixed" by any way but the good moments like this are one to be celebrated to the heavens).

 

If after two years you aren't getting anywhere doing all the "right" non-medication options I would encourage you to explore finding a vet that can help you find the right option for him. IT's a hard life for dog and owner when no one can relax and becomes a negative cycle that only makes things worse(at least in our case that's what we've found, he stresses, we stress from dealing wtih him because in him it results in OCD behaviors and uncontrollable barking, he gets more stressed, we get more stressed).

 

Also, have you tried a Thundershirt? This is one holistic item we've really had results with. I don't use it for noise phobia...instead when our dog gets stressed and won't settle(pacing, salivating, panting, barking) we'll put it on and it's amazing how it does help him calm down. We use it very judiciously as we don't want it's effects to be something he gets to used to and then they have no effect but on really bad nights it's been a lifesaver...I've had some success when I can get him to settle to then use TTouch and some massage to help him relax more(this took some time as he didn't like being pet when he was very very young but now he enjoys it).

 

Personally, I like the Patricia McDonnel/Karen London books. My dog acts out from stress so the tips in Feisty Fido have been helpful. But you might want to look at Cautious Canine for your dog. I've also used some of the Emma Parsons stuff in Click to Calm with some success. Have you tried a clicker with your dog? I've used it well with mine for trick training around the house though outside it's not effective as he doesn't hear the "click" (or anything else) once he's overstimulated. Hopefully now if we can work to keep his stimulation level lower with the help of the prozac we can revisit the clicker when walking for BAT training. If you haven't explore BAT training you might want to look at that for your dog: http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/bat/

 

Good luck!

Edited February 11, 2012 by greytlucy

[ozgirl2]

The first vet I ever took Cody to (for a teeth cleaning) gave her Ace 'cause she was a pain in the butt & barking, barking, barking (and yes she was a grey! But a barker). They gave it to her in the morning and she was still asleep at 4pmj!! When I had to pick her up at 6pm 'cause they were closing, someone had to help me CARRY her to the car 'cause she was still so groggy!

 

I made very sure she NEVER had Ace again... and changed vets the next day! (My next vet told me once, when Cody had been there all day for x-rays, that she WISHED she could have given her Ace!! She was being a barking PITA - but once they let her OUT of the kennel to roam the place, she was fine! (Especially after a vet tech gave her part of her tuna sandwich! Smart girl, that one...)

 

 

NO ACE!!!

[grey14me]

I think I agree with the "find a new vet" responses!

[Cynthia]

If our dogs have physical problems we use meds to help treat and/or relieve that pain. The brain is an organ too.

 

Since we don't hesitate to use (the right) meds to relieve our dogs pain, doesn't it make sense to take a similiar approach for fear? Humans and dogs aren't the same, and I'm sure many have noticed that while humans react inappropriately to pain, dogs do not. The flip side is that dogs may overreact to fear, while humans do not.

 

As for switching vets - if a vet is willing to work with us, both sides can learn much while the dogs benefit. I have the most greyhound savvy vet in my state. But he has very little behavioral knowledge. That doesn't mean that I switch to another vet when we have a behavioral (fear) issue to resolve. I share information and I listen and we talk it through.

 

Two years ago my happy go lucky Hope had a total shutdown and hid under a desk for an entire day. (One day under a desk is too much in my opinion). And when she displayed the same behavior (extreme fear of everything) the next day, I scheduled a vet appt for that day and considered it an emergency. Know that living in a state of extreme anxiety IS NOT HEALTHY for people or dogs. It places stress on the dogs physically. There can be no pride in avoiding drug therapies which help a dog or a human to relax and deal with the world. A dog's physical health can be affected by fear. After we did quick in office CBCs and chem and sent blood out for more tests, we discussed anti-anxiety meds to start immediately. I had come up with two, and the vet came up with ACE. Since I'd been down that road before with him for my thunder phobic girl (and I would never give it to my dogs for anxiety) we had the discussion AS A TEAM and compromised on Prozac.

 

With the combination of Prozac and lots of slow reintroduction to the world and desensitization/counter conditioning my girl came back. She was able to enter the kitchen after a week on meds and we made slow progress and then fast progress over many months. She's fine now. I thought I'd never see her typically exuberant personality again, but she is even better now than she was before, and all it took was appropriate meds for 3 months and slow steady retraining. We never found a medical problem (our fear was brain tumor). I realize Hope's case is not the same as a dog who has ongoing generalized fears, but I hope it shows the importance of both pharmaceutical and behavioral support for a fearful dog. I do have a holistic vet, and she was also very supportive of the approach.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Cynthia

[JJNg]

I absolutely agree with Cynthia's comments about the importance of using meds to treat severe anxieties. And as she mentioned, living in a constant state of fear leads to a poor quality of life, and chronic stress contributes to both physical/medical problems as well as behavioral problems. In both human and veterinary medicine, there seems to be social stigma associated with using mood-altering medications like antidepressants and anxiolytics. This, coupled with the fact that many general practitioners are unfamiliar with these drugs, often leads to dogs not receiving appropriate medications that could improve their quality of life.

 

The flip side is that dogs may overreact to fear, while humans do not.

I'm not really sure about this comment. Some people do 'overreact to fear' in the form of phobias and severe anxieties. Much of our treatments of dogs with similar problems are modeled from the human psychologic/psychiatric fields. Their brain chemistry and responses to meds are very simlar to humans.

 

In the OP's case, from comments made in previous messages, it sounds like their vet may not be willing to work with them. As a vet, I'm all for giving vets the chance and working with them to find the right treatment for your dog. But that only works if the vet is willing to listen, consider, and research treatments that are unfamiliar to them.