Update On Rainey -- Final Update Post 1

[Remolacha]

Another long shot, but can you just keep feeding her until she shuts up? Try filling lo-cal stuff, but if she gets fat, well, you can deal with that later. Maybe her metabolism is so jack up she will burn most of it off? Sorry I don't have anything more helpful

[DesiRayMom]

My eyes are leaking, my heart is breaking for you. Many prayers for you & Rainey.

[BatterseaBrindl]

No advice.

Just quiet, healing thoughts for you and Rainey.

[Guest LindsaySF]

for the thyroid, the aggression started before we ever put her on the thyroid meds... so?

The aggression might not have been caused by the thyroid meds, but if her thyroid levels are off that will only add to the problem, making her more aggressive than she would otherwise be. If her thyroid levels come back normal, at least you know that is not contributing to the aggression or other symptoms. But if the levels are too high, that could very well be combining with the other meds and causing these behaviors.

 

 

Sophie sounds like Rainey on the pheno. How long did it take for her to get better after the last increase?

She would take a minimum of 1 month to get better, for the worst of the side effects to subside. The big issues were whining/pacing, ataxia/weakness, and urinary incontinence. Some side effects are still there though, and probably always will be, as long as she's on the meds. She still gets crazy hungry once or twice a day and needs to be fed until she stops, and she is on DES to combat the incontinence.

 

 

wow, Sophie's on a LOT of pb! Rainey is only on 60mg 2 x day...she is on 750 (I think the highest dose?) of the Keppra 3 x day and 400mg of the zonisamide -- 200 2 x day. Although, we just started decreasing the zoni's yesterday to 100 mg 2 x day per Dr.'s advice. She's on such a low dose of the pheno I don't think it would help. And the Keppra/zoni's did NOT work, not at all and the pheno is the only thing that has so I really wouldn't want to go backwards....

Why is the vet decreasing the Zoni? Zoni has fewer side effects (both behavioral and on the liver) than Pheno. I would be keeping the Zoni high trying to maintain seizure control, and trying to decrease the Pheno. Sophie's neuro said he doesn't even use Pheno anymore, his first choice drug for seizures is Zoni, followed by Keppra. Adding a low dose of KBr can also help. The dose might be low enough not to cause behavioral side effects, but just enough of the drug in her system that combined with the other meds, would raise the seizure threshold.

 

As well as reviewing Linday's notes with your vet, might be worth contacting the author of this article re KBr, NaBr, and possible alternative therapies for your girl. http://www.vin.com/p...int=1&O=Generic . It sounds like she (Dr. Boothe) has done an extensive review of side effects of individual meds and combos and might have some useful insight.

thanks, Jey I read the article, and it states that Br causes the same behavior issues as pheno (always hungry)

It can, but not in every dog. It totally depends, and unfortunately there is no way to know until you try it. If you can't increase the Keppra or Zoni any higher, I would try adding KBr. Do it slowly (not a loading dose) and you might be able to wean her off the Phenobarbital once the KBr reaches therapeutic levels in a month or so.

 

Sophie has been on KBr since I got her. In the very beginning she was psycho, trying to eat everything in sight, crying constantly, etc. But I believe that is because her former owners had a communication problem (the wife was giving her the KBr once a day, the husband TWICE a day!) I think she was being accidentally overdosed on the KBr. After being with me, and only getting the KBr once a day, those symptoms went away. They came back every time we increased the Phenobarbital, but she tolerates the KBr very well. I do believe Sophie being on KBr is why we haven't had to add Keppra or any other drugs since the Zoni.

 

 

Another long shot, but can you just keep feeding her until she shuts up? Try filling lo-cal stuff, but if she gets fat, well, you can deal with that later. Maybe her metabolism is so jack up she will burn most of it off?

That's what I do with Sophie. Some evenings (usually around 10 pm ) she barks and barks and I give her one treat after another, a handful of kibble after another, etc. I think to myself that there is no way she can still possibly be hungry after all she has eaten, but she is. I've just given in lately and given her Chase's bowl (Chase is 13.5 and a VERY picky eater). She eats all of it and then sleeps like a baby. By some miracle, she hasn't gotten fat. I don't know if the Phenobarbital affects that too or what.

 

But in a case like Rainey's, where you are considering euthanasia if you can't find a solution, I would just feed her until she is content. I'm the last person that wants a fat Greyhound (I keep my guys lean), but extenuating circumstances and all, her possibly getting fat is the least of your worries! I would feed her (low-fat foods to avoid pancreatitis) until she is content. You can increase her exercise as well. I found that Sophie slept through the night more often on the days when we took a long walk. Doing zoomies in the yard would also take her mind off of food (for a while anyway).

 

 

 

I just looked more closely at your feeding schedule. Does Rainey get any snacks between the times listed? If not, I would start, hourly in the beginning if possible. A few months ago there is no way Sophie could have gone 4 hours without food, she would lose her mind. Initially I was doing hourly snacks, and at night every 4-5 hours. I read on one of the epilepsy sites too that someone said frequent snacks is the best thing they ever did for their dog, both in terms of behavior, and because they suspected low blood sugar was contributing to her seizures.

 

My favorite canine epilepsy website is this one: http://canine-epilep...om/site_map.htm I especially liked the "If I Knew Then What I Know Now" section, it was very helpful to me.

 

 

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[Guest brindleandfawn]

I am jst so sorry.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I know you don't want to add more drugs, but in the seizure threads I've read in the past, folks have used Valium to stop some types of seizures. Since it isn't a long-acting drug (or one that takes days to work) that might be something to try once or twice.

we are hesitant to add any more drugs at this point, especially any that will affect her like valium would -- she's had a very difficult time when we've changed dosages (has those "weird" episodes, as we call them -- is very disoriented and they last a LONG time -- very bad).

Valium is usually prescribed for seizures to stop clusters (more than one seizure in 24 hours). It is a fast-acting drug, but it also leaves the body fast too, so it does not give long-lasting seizure control. You could try it as a way to calm Rainey down in general though, especially if she is showing anxiety type behaviors. Just be aware that some possible side effects of valium are excitability and hunger. The more common side effects are (obviously) lethargy, uncoordination, etc. Sophie is one of the rare dogs that actually paces and gets more active when I give her valium (lucky me ). There have been occasions where the valium has knocked Sophie out, but more often than not it either didn't seem to do anything, or she seemed to pace even more. You never know how they will react until you try it. It might be a good addition for Rainey, or it might make her behavior worse. It's worth mentioning to the vet to see what they say.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[Guest Oceannine]

I am so sorry you and Rainey are going through this. My thoughts are with you.

[sdisto]

I'm so sorry for what you are going through. My only advice is to remember to take care of yourself. Rainey knows that you love her and are doing everything possible to help her.

 

I will keep you and your family tucked safely in my prayers.

[KF_in_Georgia]

How long after the thyroid med did you have it checked again? I mean how many hours between giving her the morning pill and the vet drawing the blood. It needs to be 4 to 5 hours between the two or the results will be skewed. a lot of vet offices don't know this (the people up front) and will schedule you either too soon or too long after you give the thyroid meds. So that can really screw up the results and may have you giving too little/too much in error.

 

Connie

 

they are aware of the wait, both times she got the pills at 5:15am and blood draw was at 12:30pm -- so plenty of time in between...

 

 

Kim, this is a longer period between pills and blood-draw than the experts recommend. The experts say 4 to 5 (or 6) hours between pill and blood draw. If she's having a blood-draw at 12:30, pills should come between 6:30 and 8:30 am. I don't know that it truly makes a big difference, given how erratic thyroid numbers seem to be, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

Thinking of you all...

[Newgreymom]

Sending healing thoughts....

[greyhead]

Kim, this is a longer period between pills and blood-draw than the experts recommend. The experts say 4 to 5 (or 6) hours between pill and blood draw. If she's having a blood-draw at 12:30, pills should come between 6:30 and 8:30 am. I don't know that it truly makes a big difference, given how erratic thyroid numbers seem to be, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

Thinking of you all...

Very good point. I've been told that 4 hours is ideal.

 

Also I think it should be mentioned that the recommended dose of thyroid meds for greyhounds is, in general, one-half the dose for other dogs of the same weight. (Don't know for sure about other sighthounds.) I don't recall the formula, but my 80+-pound GH's take .5 twice a day.

[greypuppyluv]

As well as reviewing Linday's notes with your vet, might be worth contacting the author of this article re KBr, NaBr, and possible alternative therapies for your girl. http://www.vin.com/p...int=1&O=Generic . It sounds like she (Dr. Boothe) has done an extensive review of side effects of individual meds and combos and might have some useful insight.

thanks, Jey I read the article, and it states that Br causes the same behavior issues as pheno (always hungry)

It can, but not in every dog. It totally depends, and unfortunately there is no way to know until you try it.

 

I'm a little behind on reading the EPIL-K9 messages (and I'll admit my memory isn't the best), but from many of the posts I remember seeing, pheno has typically been the main culprit when someone's dog is having hunger issues, not KBr. As Lindsay has said, each dog is different. But, you'd probably have to be careful because of the pancreatic issues that come with trying KBr.

 

I see that you're considering doing another MRI......I hope that gives you some answers. Since you've said her behavior is getting worse, it's probably a good time to do it.

 

Please know we're thinking about you and keeping you and Rainey in our thoughts.

[robinw]

Wow, you, Rainey and your husband have been through so much

[cmc333]

How long after the thyroid med did you have it checked again? I mean how many hours between giving her the morning pill and the vet drawing the blood. It needs to be 4 to 5 hours between the two or the results will be skewed. a lot of vet offices don't know this (the people up front) and will schedule you either too soon or too long after you give the thyroid meds. So that can really screw up the results and may have you giving too little/too much in error.

 

Connie

 

they are aware of the wait, both times she got the pills at 5:15am and blood draw was at 12:30pm -- so plenty of time in between...

 

 

Kim, this is a longer period between pills and blood-draw than the experts recommend. The experts say 4 to 5 (or 6) hours between pill and blood draw. If she's having a blood-draw at 12:30, pills should come between 6:30 and 8:30 am. I don't know that it truly makes a big difference, given how erratic thyroid numbers seem to be, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

Thinking of you all...

 

I had a greyhound on thyroid meds and when we moved and found a new vet, they forgot and so did I about the 5 hour time lapse between pill and blood draw. Gypsy's levels came back all screwy and we panicked until I finally remembered about the 5 hour wait time. My old vet in Houston, who was fabulous, was ALWAYS definite about the time frame and wouldn't do a blood draw if for some reason I had gone past the 5 hour timeframe. So it must matter, even if I don't know why.

 

Connie

[greytluck]

I have no seizure experience so this might be a silly idea but what about providing her a long lasting chew (like a marrow bone with some meat on it) so she can "eat" for a long time with out to many calories.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Kim,

You and Bruce are saints. DO NOT EVER DOUBT YOUR LOVE FOR RAINEY!!! You both have given her the best home one could want. You are both walking through fire for her, do not feel that you are wrong with any decision you make.

 

One thing that has not been brought up, what about some sort of fiber suppliment to help expand her tummy to make her feel full? I have seen a few new fiber suppliments that are basically like a sponge and when they get into the stomach they expand to fill it up. Maybe you could find something like this at the store? One other thing, warm water. When I was in the military they made us drink two glasses of warm water before we ate, this filled up our stomachs, we ate less and lost weight. In your case its not to loose weight obviously, but maybe if you fill her food bowl with warm water when she gets kibble, it may help to fill her tummy up?

 

Chad

[juliemac]

Kim --

 

I just saw this thread, and had hoped that not hearing about Rainey meant things were getting better. I'm so sorry I was wrong, and please accept the gentlest of hugs from me.

 

Please give me a call ... 630 416 0047 or 630 567 0506 © ... I can come over on Wednesday or Thursday nights this week or on Saturday for a few hours if you & Bruce would like to head out (maybe with Anubis) for some quiet time. Also, are you going to Arboretum View for the MRI on Wed? Would you like to bring Anubis over so he can meet my pups and have a doggy playdate of his own for the day?

 

If you're interested in trying a new one, I have a wonderful chiropractor/vet in Winfield (about 15 min W of Arboretum View) that I can recommend ... Dr. Dena has greys of her own & tends towards holistic medicines & a raw diet, so I'm guessing she'd definitely have some new options to incorporate into Rainey's care. She helped Paige walk again after her first 'stroke', and kept her walking for a full year before her body just couldn't take it anymore.

 

Julie

[Guest LindsaySF]

Chad, good thinking about the water. I add some to Sophie's kibble, I think it helps.

 

Greytluck, I used to give Sophie those "Busy Bone" things, she would gnaw on them for a long time. Kim maybe you could try one of those? It might keep Rainey busy. They smell really strong, which is what attracted Sophie to it. They made her legs all red though.... It was worth it for the quiet I got for about an hour.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[LakeshoreGreys]

I have no advice for you, as I have no experience with those type of issues. Just want to send you and DH a cyberhug. That sounds like an impossible situation.

[Guest vahoundlover]

I am so sorry to see you guys going through this. I have no doubt you are GREAT parents!! You guys are doing everything you can for your girlie, I hope you get some answers soon.

[Burpdog]

Kim: I haven't read the entire post but several things come to mind. Have you had a thyroid panel done? Not just the T4? Too high of thyroid can cause aggression. Thyroid test blood should be taken 5-6 hours after dose. The only other thing I can think of other than another MRI is deleting chicken from her diet (you may have already--as I said I have not read the entire thread)

 

Sending prayers!

[RaineysMom]

again, thanks to all for their help and kind words things are just continuing to get worse.

 

Why is the vet decreasing the Zoni? Zoni has fewer side effects (both behavioral and on the liver) than Pheno. I would be keeping the Zoni high trying to maintain seizure control, and trying to decrease the Pheno. Sophie's neuro said he doesn't even use Pheno anymore, his first choice drug for seizures is Zoni, followed by Keppra. Adding a low dose of KBr can also help. The dose might be low enough not to cause behavioral side effects, but just enough of the drug in her system that combined with the other meds, would raise the seizure threshold.

 

the only thing that has done any control was the pheno, unfortunately. Rainey had her first seizure since 12/30 on Saturday :( wishing now I had left all the meds the same. We were decreasing because I think (and her neuro too) that she is just on too many meds and Lord knows what it's really doing to her brain -- emotionally and behaviorally. We are not going to increase the zoni's again since she has her MRI on Wednesday, and making that change back up will absolutely cause her to have more "weird" episodes, like in the past. And honestly, they are worse than the seizures

 

 

 

Another long shot, but can you just keep feeding her until she shuts up? Try filling lo-cal stuff, but if she gets fat, well, you can deal with that later. Maybe her metabolism is so jack up she will burn most of it off?

That's what I do with Sophie. Some evenings (usually around 10 pm ) she barks and barks and I give her one treat after another, a handful of kibble after another, etc. I think to myself that there is no way she can still possibly be hungry after all she has eaten, but she is. I've just given in lately and given her Chase's bowl (Chase is 13.5 and a VERY picky eater). She eats all of it and then sleeps like a baby. By some miracle, she hasn't gotten fat. I don't know if the Phenobarbital affects that too or what.

 

But in a case like Rainey's, where you are considering euthanasia if you can't find a solution, I would just feed her until she is content. I'm the last person that wants a fat Greyhound (I keep my guys lean), but extenuating circumstances and all, her possibly getting fat is the least of your worries! I would feed her (low-fat foods to avoid pancreatitis) until she is content. You can increase her exercise as well. I found that Sophie slept through the night more often on the days when we took a long walk. Doing zoomies in the yard would also take her mind off of food (for a while anyway).

 

 

I just looked more closely at your feeding schedule. Does Rainey get any snacks between the times listed? If not, I would start, hourly in the beginning if possible. A few months ago there is no way Sophie could have gone 4 hours without food, she would lose her mind. Initially I was doing hourly snacks, and at night every 4-5 hours. I read on one of the epilepsy sites too that someone said frequent snacks is the best thing they ever did for their dog, both in terms of behavior, and because they suspected low blood sugar was contributing to her seizures.

 

My favorite canine epilepsy website is this one: http://canine-epilep...om/site_map.htm I especially liked the "If I Knew Then What I Know Now" section, it was very helpful to me.

~Lindsay~

 

I have to work so she does have to go more than 4 hours and she gets cookies ALL day long, believe me. She is getting increasingly worse by the day. Yesterday was almost completely unbearable. We fed her at 1:30pm, she slept (after whining for 1/2 hour) until close to 4pm, then we took her and Nube for a long walk...came back home and she immediately started going nuts, so she got 1 cup of kibble at 4:55pm. Then she was out doing zoomies (she does not do that, she was like bouncing off the walls ) and I had hoped that would keep her quiet until their 6pm feeding -- nope. Came back in and screamed more so we fed another 1/2 cup kibble. Still no help. So I fed/medicated (LOT of food) at 5:45pm and she still kept screaming/barking so she got ANOTHER scoop of food. She still screamed until 6:54pm when she finally fell asleep. I don't care if she gets fat either but this is going beyond what a human can take

 

Kim,

You and Bruce are saints. DO NOT EVER DOUBT YOUR LOVE FOR RAINEY!!! You both have given her the best home one could want. You are both walking through fire for her, do not feel that you are wrong with any decision you make.

 

One thing that has not been brought up, what about some sort of fiber suppliment to help expand her tummy to make her feel full? I have seen a few new fiber suppliments that are basically like a sponge and when they get into the stomach they expand to fill it up. Maybe you could find something like this at the store? One other thing, warm water. When I was in the military they made us drink two glasses of warm water before we ate, this filled up our stomachs, we ate less and lost weight. In your case its not to loose weight obviously, but maybe if you fill her food bowl with warm water when she gets kibble, it may help to fill her tummy up?

 

Chad

 

Thanks Chad and Jen we're not saints. I feel like a total failure, and always will with all of this. It's just how I am, how I will feel. I can't help it.

 

 

she usually drinks quite a bit in the afternoon, before/after her midday feeding, and more in the evening. We're having such problems with the pee and poop in the house we have to pull up the water at 8pm. And her bowl gets a lot of water when she eats too, we always have, just to soften it.

Edited March 7, 2011 by RaineysMom

[Batmom]

{{{{{{{{{{Kim and Bruce and Rainey and Nubers}}}}}}}}}}

 

Hoping against hope that the MRI tomorrow shows you something useful.

[RaineysMom]

Kim --

 

Also, are you going to Arboretum View for the MRI on Wed? Would you like to bring Anubis over so he can meet my pups and have a doggy playdate of his own for the day?

 

If you're interested in trying a new one, I have a wonderful chiropractor/vet in Winfield (about 15 min W of Arboretum View) that I can recommend ... Dr. Dena has greys of her own & tends towards holistic medicines & a raw diet, so I'm guessing she'd definitely have some new options to incorporate into Rainey's care. She helped Paige walk again after her first 'stroke', and kept her walking for a full year before her body just couldn't take it anymore.

 

Julie

 

Thanks, Julie :| we're just dropping her off in the morning and heading back home to Nube. but thank you SO much for the kind offer! I would not want anyone to have to stay here and deal with her for even 5 minutes at this point.

 

Rainey's been to her husband, Dr. Stephano -- out in the horse barn. He said they have a 16 yo GH and a 14 yo! wow. nice guy, we liked him.

 

Kim: I haven't read the entire post but several things come to mind. Have you had a thyroid panel done? Not just the T4? Too high of thyroid can cause aggression. Thyroid test blood should be taken 5-6 hours after dose. The only other thing I can think of other than another MRI is deleting chicken from her diet (you may have already--as I said I have not read the entire thread)

 

Sending prayers!

 

Hi Diane yes, she had the full blown panel back on 11/24, when they found she was actually low (even Dr. Couto agreed). She was rechecked 1 month later and found to still be low (blood was drawn about 6 hours after her pill). She's getting it rechecked on Wednesday along with her liver/kidneys (and the MRI if the L/K values are ok). why shouldn't I give chicken though?

[TheFullHouse]

Hoping and praying that a solution can be found for your sweetie.