Unsettling Vet Experience Today

[Guest TexasGreytMom]

We took our girls into our vet today for a scheduled teeth cleaning, and we got a phone call from one of the clinic's vets informing us that one of our girls had an unfavorable outcome on her lab report - evidently, her creatine (sp?) level was at 2.4% and the vet said the norm is 1.8%.

 

I asked if the norm she was referring to was for greyhounds, or for canines in general, as we knew that the makeup of greys was different from other canines in some areas.

 

The vet said that greys do have different levels in some areas, such as thyroid, but kidney levels should all the be same as other canines.

 

This of course, sent me into an emotional tailpsin, as DH and I had just lost our beloved Chow/Lab mix a few years ago to kidney disease after taking care of her at home and providing subcutaneous treatments.

 

The vet assured me that they would do a urinalysis (after obtaining fresh urine) and she'd let us know the outcome.

 

I never heard back from her, but I called to get a report and spoke with another clinic vet who informed me that they did a urinalysis and reran the tests and everything was normal (all in the same day). He didn't admit that it was "operator error," just didn't have an explanation as to why the test would be abnormal and then normal a few hours later.

 

When paying the bill, the clerk asked one of the vet techs to verify the charges($228) and asked to verify the tests conductd since they had trouble with the "________" (she stated the name of the equipment used to run the tests.) The vet tech informed her the charges were correct.

 

I have to add that we had a wonderful, experienced vet that we absolutely trusted and adored who retired. We use the same clinic, but now it's operated by very young vets with far less experience and who tend to order "every test in the book" to make a diagnosis and aren't able to draw on years of experience.

 

Please forgive my rambling ... it was a very emotional day for me and my mind is still reeling.

 

We're just curious to know if it's possible for tests like this to come out abnormal and then normal all within a matter of hours.

 

Today was a such a roller coaster of emotions that I want to be sure that I'm thinking rationally and not overreacting.

 

Any input or past experience would really be helpful to me. Thanks a million!

[Batmom]

The vet said that greys do have different levels in some areas, such as thyroid, but kidney levels should all the be same as other canines.

 

 

Nope. Greyhounds can and often do run high creatinine.

 

Might want to print out for your vets a copy of Dr. Feemans "Greyhound Health Packet" -- http://www.animalmedicalcentreofmedina.com/library-196 .

[Guest 2dogs4cats]

Yep, your vet definitely needs to read up on GHs.

[Guest TexasGreytMom]

Thanks so much - my confidence level in my clinic is now nonexistent, which is sad, because we've used the same clinic for years. I just can't trust the well-being of our girls to "green" vets. We're feeling as if we're training them, rather than the other way around. So discouraging, especially since we live in a very rural area and our choices and options are very limited. Will begin shopping around and interviewing new clinic/vets very soon. I'm at least relieved to know I'm not overreacting. Thanks again!

 

 

And, thanks also for the reference material!

[TwiggysMom]

My vet has also double-charged me for tests due to "operator error". Annoying, but unfortunately part of making sure our pets are healthy it seems.

 

Fortunately, it sounds like you got a good outcome in the end.

[Guest Profgumby]

Thanks so much - my confidence level in my clinic is now nonexistent, which is sad, because we've used the same clinic for years. I just can't trust the well-being of our girls to "green" vets. We're feeling as if we're training them, rather than the other way around. So discouraging, especially since we live in a very rural area and our choices and options are very limited. Will begin shopping around and interviewing new clinic/vets very soon. I'm at least relieved to know I'm not overreacting. Thanks again!

 

 

And, thanks also for the reference material!

 

Why should a vet be any different than an MD for you. I have changed Doc's many times in the past after being treated like an idiot for daring to question something I did not understand...I say send the Doc the info packet and if you still don't trust them, search for a vet that knows about Greys...possibly someone here or through your/a local adoption group knows a good one..

 

We are fortunate that our vet, like your last one, is very familiar with greys as she used to own them. I had a vet, upon seeing my Whippet,say - "What kind of dog is that?" I said, "A whippet?" He said, "Whippet??" all confused...I said have a nice day and never went back.

 

BTW, I HATE paying for their errors when they screw up a test. After hearing them say they were having trouble with the whoosit machine, I would have asked them about the amount again. Politely of course...

Edited February 23, 2011 by Profgumby

[IansMom]

I noticed your signature has GPA Houston in it. We are also in Houston. Shortly after we got our first greyhound, Ian, our vet told me his creatinine was too high and this could be a sign of kidney failure. This was seriously about 2 months after we got him. Anyway, long story short, we have a new vet. Sam Miller at Village Vet 713-468-7955. He is one of the vets GPA Houston recommends. If you want to pm me, you can to make sure we have not had the same bad experience with the same vet. Dr. Miller is great, though!

[JohnF]

I went thru exactly that with Peggy just 3 months after my oldie 'Angel' died from CRF. To say I was upset and paranoid would be an understatement.

I explained that Peggy had been doing mad zoomies less than an hour before the blood test and that this would in any case raise the numbers. The vet knew about different greyhound blood values, but I always carry a print out. Anyway, the urinalysis was good the day after and that told the truth about the other figures.

Treat the individual dog, not the numbers.

[racindog]

Thanks so much - my confidence level in my clinic is now nonexistent, which is sad, because we've used the same clinic for years. I just can't trust the well-being of our girls to "green" vets. We're feeling as if we're training them, rather than the other way around. So discouraging, especially since we live in a very rural area and our choices and options are very limited. Will begin shopping around and interviewing new clinic/vets very soon. I'm at least relieved to know I'm not overreacting. Thanks again!

 

 

And, thanks also for the reference material!

 

You clearly are NOT over reacting. Thank God that your greyts have such an intelligent and caring Mom. I know of too many sad stories because their owner blindly trusted vets (who really didn't care). Always listen to your intuition especially in cases like this-thats my opinion. I too miss the concientious reliable expereinced vet of yesteryear that actually did appear to care. The new breed is very hip on the "business" of vet med but not so much on the skilled side of it IMO.

[GeorgeofNE]

Your vet is wrong.

 

I gave my new-ish vet Dr. Feeman's literature, and was very appreciative that she not only read it, she contacted a vet she knows who is more familiar with Greyhounds!

 

George's creatine is about 2.2. Absent any other abnormal values, it's normal FOR HIM.

 

His first vet had me run test after test after test, to the tune of $2,000 until I got sick of it and sent his blood and urine results to Dr. Couto via email. He was kind enough to respond with a "these values are normal for this dog--nor further testing needs to be done." I gave his email to my vet, and she said, "I won't second guess him; he's considered the expert."

[AEB]

There is also a link on the OSU site that lists "normal" grey levels.

 

Your vet needs to read-up or you need to change. Trust your gut. And, good luck!

[MaryJane]

I would speak to the vet about getting the results of the lab tests and also talk to him/her about the "double-billing". It's normal procedure for labs to "rerun" any lab test if it is outside the range of published normal values but most places would not double charge. But, it could also be that if this is a small place, they might not be able to absorb the costs of running the tests twice.

[JJNg]

Sorry to hear about your experience, Carolyn. Many vets are unfamiliar with greys, and I feel that whether you need to find another vet depends on how open they are to learning. Practicing medicine is a continual learning process - there is just too much information out there to expect vets (or doctors) to know everything. If your vet hasn't come across very many greys before, and doesn't have personal experience, they may just not have had a chance to learn about the differences yet. This isn't necessarily something taught in vet schools.

 

With the less common breeds, we often do need (and appreciate) additional information from owners. Sometimes all it takes is bringing up the idea that the breed has differences, and good vets will take that and do the research themselves. When a client brings me breed-related, or other info, I also don't automatically accept it, but do my own research as well.

 

I'd suggest going to your vet(s) with your concerns, take a copy of Dr. Feemans's packet, and see how receptive they are to discussing it with you. If they blow you off and insist that greys are just like other dogs, that's your cue to find another vet. But if they seem interested in learning and working with you, then you may have started the process in creating another grey-savvy vet.

 

On the issue of getting different blood test results within a few hours, it is possible due to lab, or technical errors - not necessarily 'operator error' but sometimes a factor of the lab equipment or faulty test materials. If they were getting 2 significantly different numbers on the same test/sample, they may need to check the calibration of their bloodwork machine.

[Guest Stripeyfan]

No, you did not overreact. We had a very bad experience with a vet practice last year, which we'd chosen because it was very close. Our boy was sick with what turned out to be IBD but they wouldn't do any tests to try and find out what was really wrong. And every time I rang because Kelly was ill again or had lost more weight, they'd tell us to come in - making them money but getting us nowhere. I believe now that if we hadn't changed practices we could have ended up losing him. I hope you can find a vet you trust - it really does make all the difference!

[Guest zombrie]

I can't imagine how that made you feel! Unfortunately I know all too well about having a vet you don't trust. After some searching though, I have finally found two excellent vets experienced with greyhounds

[Burpdog]

P.m. me the clinic you used please.

 

I have all of Dr. Feeman's papers if you would like me to email them to you.

[silverfish]

I would speak to the vet about getting the results of the lab tests and also talk to him/her about the "double-billing". It's normal procedure for labs to "rerun" any lab test if it is outside the range of published normal values but most places would not double charge. But, it could also be that if this is a small place, they might not be able to absorb the costs of running the tests twice.

 

Certainly I'd do that!! I've never been billed double for a test that had to be re-run because of operator error or faulty equipment, and I'd be annoyed if that happened.

 

On the creatinine, yes, greyhounds can run high, and it can be further raised if you feed raw. Creatinine in the urine is the result of the breakdown of muscle cells and it's not always possible in a simple lab test to discover whether they came from the dog's own body or from raw meat in the diet. It's simple to find out though, with an extra test called a 'protein/creatinine ratio' test. It's not even that expensive, and I'd advise anyone whose grey was 'suddenly' or 'unexpectedly' dxd with kidney problems on a basic lab test to request that to be done along with specific gravity.

 

On the subject of vets unfamiliar with greyhounds ... well. If they're open to discussion and willing to learn (either accepting material from you or from their own research) they can be pretty good even if they don't know greys right off the bat. In fact, a really diligent vet who is willing to do his/her research can be a real advantage over someone who's been there/done that over a number of years. New, diligent vets put effort in, and are keen to learn. What you DON'T want to do is alienate them by being aggressively challenging because that won't get you the best treatment. You'll have to be a little bit cleverer than that, and approach them in a friendly, and intelligent but assertive way. I know how hard it is to do that when you have a sick dog lying on the table between you, but the fact is that you don't get the best service if you alienate someone.

 

I'm not suggesting for a moment that you did come over aggressively, I'm just stating my opinion on general policy while we're discussing older, more experienced over young and still learning.

 

Anyway. Here's a snippet from the Grassmere Animal Hospital site:

 

"Greyhounds have a higher creatinine than other breeds, and can be inadvertently misdiagnosed with kidney failure when, in fact, their kidneys are quite healthy.

 

Depending on the lab's normal range, other breeds have a high of about 1.2 to 1.4 for their creatinine level, Greyhounds can normally run up to 2.1 (some say to 2.4) before it's considered to be possibly abnormal. If there is any doubt, run a second test on the urine called a specific gravity to help distinguish true kidney failure from a normal value. A specific gravity in the 1.008 to 1.012 range combined with a truly elevated creatinine requires further testing. BUN's can also run a little above other breed's normal."

 

And from GT's own Dr Bill Feeman (click):

 

"Greyhounds have significantly higher creatinine concentrations than other breeds (Table 1).5 These higher concentrations, primarily attributed to the breed's large muscle mass, often lead to a misdiagnosis of early renal disease. Female greyhounds have higher blood urea nitrogen (BUN) concentrations than other breeds.1 Greyhound glomerular filtration rates are similar to those of nongreyhounds (Drost WT, Couto CG, Fischetti AJ, et al., Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio: Unpublished data, 2005). In dogs, raw food diets increase BUN concentrations and, in some cases, creatinine concentrations.6 Many active greyhound racers and some retired racers are fed a raw food diet, so their BUN and creatinine concentrations could be further elevated in the absence of renal disease. "

Edited February 23, 2011 by silverfish

[Guest sheila]

Thanks so much - my confidence level in my clinic is now nonexistent, which is sad, because we've used the same clinic for years. I just can't trust the well-being of our girls to "green" vets. We're feeling as if we're training them, rather than the other way around. So discouraging, especially since we live in a very rural area and our choices and options are very limited. Will begin shopping around and interviewing new clinic/vets very soon. I'm at least relieved to know I'm not overreacting. Thanks again!

 

 

And, thanks also for the reference material!

 

you can take this for what it's worth, it's just my thoughts and I'm not an expert on anything. I also live in a rural area and options are limited. I also have the only greys my vet has ever had in his practice. However he has been more than willing and open to learning and listening to anything I have concerns with. When he's not sure about something he will consult with colleagues that do work with greys and get their opinions and advice. Yes, I and others have been training him and I don't mind it a bit. It's been invaluable to have a dedicated vet that is local when I've had emergency situations after hours when time was of the essence. He's come out at 1 AM, on Sunday mornings, on Saturday nights. When I walk in the staff know me and my dogs by name. When I may not have the $$ for an unexpected expense, they bill me and let me make payments if I have to. All of this makes up for what he originally lacked in experience and like I said, he's willing to learn.

[kudzu]

I don't stick with vets who don't know their stuff, get defensive or dismissive when I ask questions, do not seem interested in learning or my relationship with them has reached a level where I really would have a most difficult time trusting them again. However, I will take a young, green vet with an open, inquiring mind yearning for knowledge over an older, more experienced vet who has trouble accepting that this time they don't know what's going on or is unwilling the new thing my dogs condition is trying to teach them.

 

So depending on how the vet spoke to you, I may be rather inclined to bring in info & discuss things with them. Basically, you may want to give them another chance. As for the double billing it could be a case of the front office making an incorrect decision on how to handle the billing. I would certainly inquire about that & if the response is unsatisfactory I would ask to speak to someone of more authority like the office manager or the vet. I have never been double billed for rerunning tests on the same visit to verify the numbers are correct.

 

Will say that if my Grey showed a creatinine level of 2.4 on the first blood work I'd ever run I would be inclined to do a urinalysis as a back up. If the urinalysis is fine then sometime down the road, maybe 3-6 mos, I would recheck the levels just to make sure that is my dog's normal level. You didn't mention if your dog has had prior lab work. If so, how did this value compare?

[Guest TexasGreytMom]

Sorry I couldn't respond sooner to all your wonderful replies - I don't have access to the forum during my work day.

 

I've made appointments with two other vets in my area to "interview" them, after receiving feedback from coworkers who have lived in our area forever.

 

Since our beloved vet (and his colleagues) are no longer practicing at our clinic, there has been more than enough turnover in vets and it hasn't been possible for us to form a relationship and trust in any of the new ones.

 

I need to know that there's someone we can call at a moment's notice after hours that will be able to treat and deal with our situation without having to pull out a "veterinarian medicine for dummies" book or rely on us to train them. I'm sorry - I don't mean to sound curt, but I'm still upset by this experience.

 

We moved here from the city where we had an experienced vet ten years ago. We were blessed to have found our former vet who didn't miss a beat when it came to caring for greyhounds. Since losing him, we've had to put up with young vets who's first reaction to everything is to order expensive test. Don't get me wrong - tests are necessary when warranted, but in our experience, can also be abused and overused.

 

Honestly, we never leave our vet's office without paying less than $100-200, regardless of the nature of the visit. If the expense is warranted, we spare no expense and have no hesitation in doing whatever has to be done to ensure our girls' health (in fact, we paid over $3,000 to specialists for one particular issue).

 

I guess I'm partly insulted because the office staff all know us and our girls and they know that the girls' health is our priority - leads me to think that we run the risk of them taking advantage of us financially for that reason. Do you all feel that the parents of greys might be perceived as having deep pockets (due to our devotion and dedication to these wonderful family members)because of our soft hearts?

 

The new vet before this current one had once told us that one of the girls had a condition (not life-threatening) for which there was no treatment (I can't even recall what it was), but she wanted to run a series of tests that would have cost over $1,000. We asked what the benefit would be to the tests if there was no treatment. She had no answer for us. We could only surmise that the tests would have satisfied her personal curiosity.

 

All of these negative factors have just built up and the more I type this the more I realize that it IS time for us to look for someone we're really comfortable with.

 

Even though our options are very limited (we live 10 miles from a small town and 1-1/2 hours from Houston), we'll just have to find the best vet we can nearby and rely on specialists in Houston for any serious problems that may arise (God forbid).

 

I'm so sorry to sound so negative - all is not negative at the clinic - we love the office staff and the attitude of the techs and they all love our girls. It breaks my heart not to be able to find a comfort level with the revolving door vets, though.

 

I'll keep you posted on our search for a vet that's a right fit for our family!

 

And thanks a million to those of you who have assured me that I'm not overreacting! Your support is invaluable to a very worried grey-mother and it's so comforting to know there are kindred spirits here! I would hug you if I could!

 

Burpdog - I will be happy to PM you the name of our clinic after we've found a new vet. I hope you understand - we don't want to risk burning any bridges until we're assured that we've found a new clinic for the girls. Thanks for your understanding!

Edited February 24, 2011 by TexasGreytMom

[HJsM]

Sounds to me like the first vet didn't understand Greyhound levels AT ALL and your other vet was trying to smooth things over to cover for the lack of knowledge of the first vet. If this is the case, they should have just admitted to you that the first one was not comparing apples to apples. All in all, it might be time for a change if you can.

[Guest TexasGreytMom]

Thanks, HJsM! Did you and your pups fare well with the hurricane evacuation a few years ago? That had to have been frightening!

 

Our Dora came to us as the result of being a Katrina evacuee - some kind souls rescued her as she ran along Highway 10. She had totally run her foot pads completely off on the pavement. Even though we don't know who these angels on earth are, we'll be forever grateful to them for putting their personal safety aside to reach out to her!

 

Appreciate your input!

Edited February 24, 2011 by TexasGreytMom

[silverfish]

Ah well, if it's an accumulation of things, then probably that would be the last straw for me too.

 

I left my vet of ten plus years after just such a series of ... shall we say 'unfortunate incidents'. This practice was the opposite; they never wanted to do tests that might have shown up the problem before it became critical and all the 'underling' vets had to check in with the boss before twitching a muscle, it seemed. And there began to be a whole series of short-stay vets from Europe who couldn't always speak English terribly fluently, and who didn't know us or our dogs.

 

It was when we lost Renie and then Jack and there was yet ANOTHER vet from Eastern Europe who didn't know us and didn't seem to have any idea about normal greyhound values who was trying to tell us Jack's problems were his heart (they weren't, as was later proven). Finally, the vet we really liked and trusted couldn't come out for that final call-out at 1am when Jack was dying in my arms ... the whole thing stressed me beyond endurance and broke my heart, and now we're with the vet who did come out, even though we were not his clients. He was extremely kind and did his best for my lovely old boy.

[Guest TexasGreytMom]

silverfish - What an experience! So glad you ended up with a vet who's a good fit for your family!

 

It was an interesting day, to say the least.

 

I spoke on the phone to one of the two potential new vets. I had high hopes because this particular one does radio advertisements in our local area, and coworkers had positive things to say about him. Well, to say the least, I was totally disappointed. I hardly had a chance to ask any questions on my list, because he went on and on in a cocky tone of voice about how he felt greyhounds weren't special, that the entire "theory" that greyhounds are different from any other breed,is all "hype," that there's no difference in any of their lab test values or parameters, that their body makeup and the fact that they have more red blood cells than other breeds is meaningless, and that he treats greyhounds just as he does any other breed, especially with anesthesia. His approach with anesthesia is to give 10mg, if that isn't enough, just keep giving more and more in 10mg increments until it works. He also stated not to be surprised that his clinics has the highest charges in the area, but that's because he believes in providing quality. LOL! I thanked him for his time and ended the conversation ... or rather, ended his dissertation.

 

Spent the rest of the day basically shell shocked because I just couldn't believe it!

 

Then, I learned that we had another option .... a vet we really enjoyed, who had the best bedside manner and was with us when we had to put our beloved Chow/Lab down due to kidney failure years ago. She'd left our vet clinic suddenly severa; years ago and we didn't understand what happened. Well, she's started her own clinic and will soon be expanding to a larger facility. She totally "gets" greyhounds and understands everything about them. We searched for her phone number and I called her tonight. I started out saying, "you probably don't remember me after all these years," and before I could finish, she immediately recognized who I was and asked about our girls and my DH. I was so extremely relieved! She's thrilled to have the girls back as patients and we're going to get together as soon as I get the girls' records from our soon-to-be former vet. I told her that I doubted the clinic would give us the records and she said that we were legally entitled to a copy of them. That if the clinic refused or stalled for any reason, we can contact the state veterinary board and they will initiate a demand for our records. I never realized that and am grateful she let me know. Am hoping it won't come to that.

 

Oh, and the reason she had to make a sudden departure from our clinic was due to a business decision made by the heir to the clinic when the owner passed away.

 

DH and I are so very excited ... the new facility will be 6000sf, offer indoor/outdoor air conditioned runs, first class boarding suites, etc. We will feel so at ease leaving the girls there. This vet truly has her heart in her "work" and you can tell by her bedside manner that the truly loves each and every pet she sees. And, rather than reaching an answering service after hours, her office number rings right thru to her cell phone. Talk about customer service!

 

I'm so glad we pursued securing a different clinic and vet. And, now that we can use this former vet again, it feels sort of like "going home again!" We're only sorry that we didn't do this sooner!

 

For anyone who's not totally satisifed with their current clinic or vet, I highly recommend not settling - there's a clinic/vet out there who is a perfect fit for your family! We're living proof of that!

 

Thanks again for all the input, support, reassurances that I'm not overreacting, and mostly, for taking the time to share your experiences! Hugs to all of you!!!!!!!!!!

[silverfish]

Great news! I am so glad to hear you have your problem solved in such a perfect way!