No One Knows What's Wrong...

[Guest CharlieHorse]

We first adopted Charlie about nine months ago now, and he's been sick on and off for the extent. None of our vets can figure out what's wrong with him, so maybe someone on here has some helpful suggestions... sorry this is so long, but I want to include as much info as I can...

 

When we first got him, he was treated for Lyme disease with doxycycline and hookworms with Panacur. From the time we got him, his stools had always been soft, but maybe 2 or 3 months after we got him home, we got up one Sunday morning and he was not eating as enthusiastically as usual. When we took him out, there was a small amount of red blood in his stool. We rushed him to the pet hospital where they did a fecal sample, bloodwork and x-rays. After all this, the only thing they could find was that his intestines were inflamed in the x-rays. They gave us an antibiotic and we were on our way.

 

This bloody diarrhea went on for a few weeks, and we were in and out of the vet's office until finally they suggested a probiotic and special prescription dog food. So we changed Charlie's food (from Nutro to Royal Canin hypoallergenic hp) and began giving him a probiotic twice daily. In a few days, his stool was completely normal. In fact, it was better than when we first got him. We were thrilled.

 

He had small bouts here and there, but we were told that he had IBD and that little flare-ups here and there were normal.

 

Then, a few months later, he was in to get his 6 month booster for the bordetella vaccine (huge mistake, I know), which was administered nasally, and that night he began coughing. After a few weeks of this, the vet told us that he did, in fact, have kennel cough, and put him on a cough suppressant (which didn't help) and then prednisone to bring down the swelling in his trachea. The cough stopped, but while he was on the prednisone, he started having TONS of seeds in his stool. He did not eat these seeds while we have had him, as I have been vigilant about what he eats... giving him ONLY his special "hypoallergenic" food, and watching his every move. These seeds lasted for two days, but there was no change in his stool, and then went away. We weaned him off the pred, Charlie seemed fine (finally) and we were so happy!

 

But then, less than a week later he started having terrible diarrhea, lots of blood (mostly red, but some black in the beginning) in it, and refused to eat his hypoallergenic food. As it started, because he was not eating, there were times that we would take him out and his stool was only blood. Charlie never had accidents in our house, but it was like he could no longer hold anything in, and at its worst he needed to go out every hour, or he would go on the floor. After a few days of not eating his food at all, we changed it over to boiled lean beef and white rice, and he started eating immediately. The vet has now said that they think it may be colitis, and want to do a colonoscopy to find out what kind, but after having spent tons of money on all these other tests and medication, I'm not sure that we want to do it. He's been on Amoxicillin and Metronidazole, as well as Pepto-bismol for about 6 days now, and although he has a little more energy and is eating, his stool has remained the same, although he does have more control over it. We are also slowly changing his food over to the California Natural Venison and Potato as it has no grains in it.

 

Then, I talked to the vet again last night, and found out that their in-house fecal exams are only about 50% accurate. Could this still be worms?

 

Does this sound at all similar to anything anyone has been through? We love our Charlie so much, even though we've only had him a short time and don't want to even think about losing him, but being that no one can figure out what is wrong or effectively treat what is happening, it seems like maybe there is no cure...

[duncan41]

No personal experience, but you came to the right place! Welcome to GT but I'm sorry it has to be under these circumstances.

 

One question: Is your Vet "Greyhound savvy"? I will be sending prayers of comfort and healing white light to Charlie and hugs to you. Hang in there and don't be afraid to ask a million questions - we all want to help our hounds, no matter what the problem because they sssooo deserve it!

[MP_the4pack]

I'm the first person to run off to a specialist. Is there a big university hospital or private clinic that has a specialist in digestion or the digestive tract?

 

Unfortunately......this means spending more money.

 

I don't have anything else to offer. Sorry.

[mychip1]

My boys have been on Iams Low Residue food to deal with loose stools... But, I have to bribe them with something in it...i.e. cold cuts, pasta, shredded Mozarella cheese.....Sometimes their stools are still loose....but they are MUCH better. Hopefully it's just inflamation causing the blood.....Good luck!

[Madeara]

What is up with the seeds? What kind of seeds? Am I missing something? Maybe the seeds had something to do with it? Seeds in the colon can sometimes spell trouble "diverticulitis? Can a dog have that?

[Guest DoofBert]

Has he been tested for giardia? I recall one of our groups foster hounds had big D that wouldn't go away and after a myriad of tests, it was determined she had giardia.

 

And, as others suggested....best to find a vet specialist.

 

Hugs, and good thoughts your way......

Edited June 30, 2010 by DoofBert

[Trudy]

Second vet for a second opinion.

Could very easily still be worms and that could be the ONLY problem or it could be in conjunction with other issues still.

 

Get the records from the first vet and bring them with you to your apt with a new vet.

[cowpantslady]

our melman has ibs the best suggestion is to get him to a specialist

where do you live or at least a 2nd opinion

[Guest CharlieHorse]

wow! I can't believe how quickly everyone responded! This is great.

 

Diverticulitis actually came up about the seeds, and now that's what the vet thinks it is... although she doesn't seem very concerned about it... which I think is kind of strange.

 

He was tested for giardia, but only one time... it came back negative, but we're thinking about testing him again just to be sure.

 

Ugh... I was hoping everyone wouldn't say "specialist" but it's looking like that needs to be the next step, I guess. We're going to have another fecal exam done as well, but this time send it to a lab... from reading some of the other forums it sounds like that's probably better.

 

Also, my vet seems to know a lot about greyhounds... she even used to volunteer to help out, i think. I'm starting to worry that she's just using trial and error methods at this point, though...

[Guest Greytluv]

Charlie :candle

 

Lots of good Advice here. I'd see a specialist, too. Maybe have his blood work sent to Dr. Couto or Dr. Dodds. Maybe they can spot something

[Guest CharlieHorse]

I'm in the Reading/Lancaster, PA area if anyone knows any good vets/specialists...

[Guest CharlieHorse]

Nevermind... I just saw the vet list broken down by state. Whoops!

[MP_the4pack]

I'm in NJ. You have a some choices a few hours east of you.....

I have used Veterinary Specialist and Emergency Center for cardiology, oncology, radiology and surgery. They are in Langhorne, Pa.

 

I've used C.A.R.E.S for emergency ultrasound. They are also in Langhorne.

 

I've gone to U of Penn for behavioral and emergency care In Philly. (the only negative is that you have to deal with students. And if a student messes up a simple test like xraying the wrong side, you may not get to see the specialist)

 

I made the trip out to OSU (Ohio State University...home of Dr. Couto, world renown greyhound oncologist) when my babies had cancer. Being in Lancaster, you're only 4-5 hrs from OSU. (I'm 9 hrs)They see a TON of greyhounds. If anyone can help, they can. And they know greyhounds.

 

 

So If you are thinking about making the trip to OSU........go for it. It's definitely worth it and there are people willing to put you up in their homes for free or much less than motels. It's an awesome place.

 

Otherwise, I've listed the hospitals in order of what I think might work best regarding my personal experiences. I wish I knew of something in Central Pa. and could help you more with that.

 

Good Luck!!

 

PS. OSU is also reasonably priced as far as specialty clinics are concerned. And they will tell you up front the costs of what they want/plan to do.

Edited June 30, 2010 by MP_the4pack

[Guest SoulsMom]

Def get another vet. My heart was in my throat reading about his bloody Big D. Soul get bouts of it every single time I try to switch him off the prescription I/D diet. I'm very surprised you vet hasn't recommended you try the food. I'd do an ultrasound before scoping him.

[NeylasMom]

You said when you got him, he was being treated for Lyme disease. Do you know how he was diagnosed (3D snap test, titer sent off to Protatek or NC State, etc.) and what his test results were? After treatment, was a test run again to make sure the lyme was cleared out? Has he been tested for other TBDs, specifically Babesia and Ehrlichia?

 

You also mention he was treated for hooks with Panacur. What dosage, how many days was it administered, did you do second or third rounds of it and if so, how much later? These "seeds" - did you take a stool sample into your vet to confirm what they were? Also, had you fed any different treats around that time? I ask the latter question b/c there is one particular treat that I feed my dogs which causes my females poop to have what looks like round seeds in them - they're a salmon and grain based treat.

 

I may have some suggestions, but I'm curious about the answers to those questions first.

 

Sorry you're having ot deal with this, but you've come to the right place for support and ideas to discuss with your vet.

[dex95lucy]

I live north of Lititz, which is north of Lancaster. I use Dr. Alysia Deaven, 2686 S. Pine Grove St, Jonestown, PA 17038. Her practice is Greys and Strays. It is a few miles north of Lebanon, and not far from I 78. She is alone in her office except for her mom helping her. VERY greyhound savy. She was the vet for the greyhound farm where I worked. However, she only takes cash and bank checks now as she has been burned too often. Her e mail is xrcrpagn@comcast.net

I would say to e mail her and ask her if she could help, or if she has any suggestions. tell her what has already been done.

She does a lot of clinic work to spay animals and give vacs for lower fees, and works hard to keep her fees low, but some things cost a lot no matter where you go.

She is doing the spays and dentals for my two dogs in July and she is the ONLY vet in my area of about 40 miles that I trust for this as I lost Bessie last year from the anesthesia.

 

Good luck and keep us posted. There was a good greyhound vet at Smoketown Vet clinic, but we don't know where he went.

 

sue

[Guest CharlieHorse]

I'm not sure which type it was, but it was done in-house at my vet's... so probably the snap? It didn't take too long for the result... maybe like 15 minutes or so? I think it tested for a few different TBDs, but again, I'm not sure. It would have been all grouped in that one test. I guess I was a little naive and assumed the my vet knew what was best for Charlie, and unfortunately, I think I was wrong. They also never did a retest because they said it shows up for about 2 years after the treatment, so they were just going to recheck next year.

 

They never did the second or third rounds... He was treated about 2 months apart and only for three to five days each time. I spoke with my vet and she said we can definitely try doing the full treatment (Like we should have done months ago)...

 

I didn't bring in a stool sample, but I did bring in photos that we took (when I called and asked if they wanted a stool sample, they said no) but they wouldn't look at the photos, either. At that time, he seemed fine, so I guess they just thought the seeds were no big deal.

 

All he has been eating for the past 3 to 5 months is the Royal Canin hypoallergenic hp food. I tried getting him some hypoallergenic treats (I think they were Hills) but they didn't seems to agree with him so I stopped after 2 or so. The seeds looked almost like bird seed, though.

 

 

I talked with someone else and they think it's cancer...hemangiosarcoma (sp?). Is that really my best bet at this point? I'm so scared for him...

[greyhead]

I second the vote for ultrasound. It's non-invasive, doesn't require anesthesia, and is very revealing about the state of the internal structures. I'd also suggest that someone do a culture-and-sensitivity on his poop.

 

Our Spencer came with hookworms, which didn't get treated for nine months thanks to 50%-accurate fecals! A couple years later he developed SIBO and IBD. Although metronidazole will kill many germs in the intestines, it doesn't get all kinds. Spencer's required several rounds of three different antibiotics. The only way to know what germ and what antibiotic is with a C&S on the poop.

 

Look for an internist with an intestinal specialty, would be my advice. And I wish you the very, very best. I know how hard this is. If I hadn't spent months searching the Internet for info and getting lots of help and support on GT, Spencer wouldn't have come out so well. We don't have all the answers, but we sure will share our best ideas.

[Hubcitypam]

I went to heck and back with Rex and his colitis. We wormed, tested and fecaled him within an inch of his life. Tested for giardia, something that begins with c that escapes me. He had a standing perscription for flagyl at one vets. I tried California Natural, Natural Balance, Nature's Recipe and several other higher end foods. Spent what seemed like hundreds of hours researching food. Nothing out of Rex that didn't have to be hosed in to the yard rather than scooped. He had one round of pred after I came home from work on Easter to a kitchen filled with bloody runs. He would have times when his tummy would grumble so loud it would wake me at night.

 

One day I got so frustrated I tossed a bag of food most people here would die before they fed but I had sucessfully fed years before into my cart. With a day or two of starting the transition his poops firmed up and by day 5 or so you could bounce them off the sidewalk. Never had another bout of bloody runs or grumbly tummy.

 

I guess you could say I fixed Rex with spit and bailing wire and/or just kept throwing things against the wall to see what stuck. He did later spend lots of time at the specialist for his spine issues but we never went for his tummy issues. In his case the food made all the difference.

 

Best of luck with your boy.

[Anne]

I had a pup once with horrible diarrhea. It took about 5 stool samples for the coccidia and the giardia to show up. It must be an absolutely fresh sample and best if looked at within 5-10 minutes of exiting the dog.

I have a dog with frequent bloody stools, but it's stress and anxiety and she'll have pure blood coming out of her if she's not drugged when I leave or when she's stressed. I use a lot of benedryl.

 

I thought that pepto-bismol shouldn't be used in dogs because it contains subsalicylate and that can cause bleeding? Subsalicylate is related to asprin, which causes bleeding in some people and pets.

 

I have kao-pec (a gallon!!) from the feed store that I use, it's got kaolin and pectin in it, no subsalicylates. ????????

 

 

 

 

edited cause I can't speeel.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Anne

[Dawnnziggy]

I had to take Ziggy to OSU for his eye problems. They were very reasonable! The actual visit itself only cost us $120.00. I didn't think that was bad for all of the tests they had to do for him. The vet was so knowledgeable! He did his best to explain Ziggy's problem to us so that we understood. The only downside is the time issue. You will be there for quite a while. After telling you that, I also want you to know that I plan on taking Ziggy in once each year to have his eye checked out.

 

Good luck! Prayers for you and your grey!

[MP_the4pack]

I'm not sure which type it was, but it was done in-house at my vet's... so probably the snap? It didn't take too long for the result... maybe like 15 minutes or so? I think it tested for a few different TBDs, but again, I'm not sure. It would have been all grouped in that one test. I guess I was a little naive and assumed the my vet knew what was best for Charlie, and unfortunately, I think I was wrong. They also never did a retest because they said it shows up for about 2 years after the treatment, so they were just going to recheck next year.

 

They never did the second or third rounds... He was treated about 2 months apart and only for three to five days each time. I spoke with my vet and she said we can definitely try doing the full treatment (Like we should have done months ago)...

 

I didn't bring in a stool sample, but I did bring in photos that we took (when I called and asked if they wanted a stool sample, they said no) but they wouldn't look at the photos, either. At that time, he seemed fine, so I guess they just thought the seeds were no big deal.

 

All he has been eating for the past 3 to 5 months is the Royal Canin hypoallergenic hp food. I tried getting him some hypoallergenic treats (I think they were Hills) but they didn't seems to agree with him so I stopped after 2 or so. The seeds looked almost like bird seed, though.

 

 

I talked with someone else and they think it's cancer...hemangiosarcoma (sp?). Is that really my best bet at this point? I'm so scared for him...

 

I'm not a doctor, but none of these symptoms sound like hemangio. There are three types that I'm aware of, skin, which obviously you see on the skin, cardio which would cause shortness of breath and tiredness, and splenic which you usually don't find out until it's too late. My Brindle had splenic. There are many others on this board that have had the other two as well.

While it could still be cancer, it just doesn't sound like hemangio. An ultrasound will be able to rule out a lot.

[NeylasMom]

I'm not sure which type it was, but it was done in-house at my vet's... so probably the snap? It didn't take too long for the result... maybe like 15 minutes or so? I think it tested for a few different TBDs, but again, I'm not sure. It would have been all grouped in that one test. I guess I was a little naive and assumed the my vet knew what was best for Charlie, and unfortunately, I think I was wrong. They also never did a retest because they said it shows up for about 2 years after the treatment, so they were just going to recheck next year.

 

They never did the second or third rounds... He was treated about 2 months apart and only for three to five days each time. I spoke with my vet and she said we can definitely try doing the full treatment (Like we should have done months ago)...

 

I didn't bring in a stool sample, but I did bring in photos that we took (when I called and asked if they wanted a stool sample, they said no) but they wouldn't look at the photos, either. At that time, he seemed fine, so I guess they just thought the seeds were no big deal.

 

All he has been eating for the past 3 to 5 months is the Royal Canin hypoallergenic hp food. I tried getting him some hypoallergenic treats (I think they were Hills) but they didn't seems to agree with him so I stopped after 2 or so. The seeds looked almost like bird seed, though.

 

 

I talked with someone else and they think it's cancer...hemangiosarcoma (sp?). Is that really my best bet at this point? I'm so scared for him...

Yes, if your vet did the lyme test in house, it was most likely the 3D snap test (tests for lyme, ehrlichia and heartworm). It's true that you can still have a high titer level after treating for infection. A titer level is only an indication that antibodies in the body are high (because they've been produced to fight infection), but I thought that you would see the titer drop - perhaps not to the level of a non-infected dog, but lower than when the was actively fighting the infection. I may be wrong so re-titering may or may not be indicated.

 

I would however test for Babesia and possibly Bartonella, which is a lesser known TBD that is appearing more frequently (maybe b/c people are now aware of it). Don't let your vet tell you that there's no Babesia in your area - he could have picked it up elsewhere before coming to you. The best way to do this is through NC State. They have a titre option, as well as PCR. Generally it's best/cheapest to start with the titer, but then again, I'm usually recommending a full panel with them (lyme, babesia, ehrlichia and RMSF). In your case the full panel may not be indicated - you'd have to weigh the cost b/w doing that and running titer tests for individual diseases ($95 for the panel vs. $20 per disease, keeping in mind there is more than one type of some of the organisms). You will also have to factor in the cost to ship the blood and any fee the vet would charge you to draw the blood (hopefully nothing). All of the information you would need to discuss iwth your vet is hereand the order form is here.

 

If it were me, I would definitely do at least the Babesia test and also review what treatment you did for the Lyme and whether it was sufficient to knock out the disease (there is conflicting info about the dosage and length of treatment time). I recommend this even though you are primarily dealing with stomach issues because 1) if he was positive for one tick disease, there is a good chance he is positive for another and 2) TBDs sometimes show up in odd ways.

 

The treatment for the hookworms that your vet did is correct. For hooks you generally do 2 rounds 30 days apart, each round for 3-5 days, but in tough cases a 3rd round can be warranted and your vet certainly should have recommend a fecal recheck to ensure the worms were gone. You do want to make sure the dosage is correct. I am assuming since you have a male that 2-4 gram packets each day would be correct (that's for an 80 lb dog). If you decide to do the Panacur treatment again, you can get the Panacur yourself online to save money FYI. Entirely Pets has the best price I could find at $9 per 3-4 gram packets so $18 per treatment round. The other thing to consider is recontamination - hooks aren't as bad as some other worms in this regard, but if you use a yard, you might want to take precautions to keep it decontaminated while doing the treatment. There's a lot of good information on hookworms here.

 

By the way, I am guessing the thing that starts with a C that Pam was talking about is Clostridium. It is important to consider that bacteria like that and giardia can not show up on fecals so multiple fecals a few days apart or treatment for symptoms even in the face of a negative test result is sometimes warranted. Starting another round of flagyl when you start Panacur (if you decide to go that route) might be worth it. I would either way test the stool again first - much better to konw what you're dealing with if it does come up positive for something.

 

These things are fairly inexpensive things you can do first. Whether you do these before you seek out an internist or do an ultrasound is your decision. I am obviously not a vet. Given how long you've been struggling with this, it's probably better not to wait. I do also think a new vet may be able to get a different perspective on the situation.

[Fudge]

I live north of Lititz, which is north of Lancaster. I use Dr. Alysia Deaven, 2686 S. Pine Grove St, Jonestown, PA 17038. Her practice is Greys and Strays. It is a few miles north of Lebanon, and not far from I 78. She is alone in her office except for her mom helping her. VERY greyhound savy. She was the vet for the greyhound farm where I worked. However, she only takes cash and bank checks now as she has been burned too often. Her e mail is xrcrpagn@comcast.net

I would say to e mail her and ask her if she could help, or if she has any suggestions. tell her what has already been done.

She does a lot of clinic work to spay animals and give vacs for lower fees, and works hard to keep her fees low, but some things cost a lot no matter where you go.

She is doing the spays and dentals for my two dogs in July and she is the ONLY vet in my area of about 40 miles that I trust for this as I lost Bessie last year from the anesthesia.

 

Good luck and keep us posted. There was a good greyhound vet at Smoketown Vet clinic, but we don't know where he went.

 

sue

 

I second contacting Dr. Deavon, I have heard many great things about her....her phone # is 717-304-9987. I think 717 is the correct area code. If not, then 610 area code.

[Guest CharlieHorse]

@Anne — I didn't know that about Pepto... I will switch over to the kao-pectate and see if that helps at all. Is it for the same thing as Pepto (I'd assume it is)

 

@NeylasMom — Thanks so much for all this information! I just looked at his paperwork, and the lyme test was for heartworm/lyme/erlichia as you said, so I think I will send bloodwork out for the others. He's currently on flagyl along with Amoxicillan. He was also given Pyrantel Pamoate Dewormer when we got him... not sure if that would wipe out any worms he had or not... probably not.

Also, they did a gram stain a few weeks ago and said that there wasn't an overabundance of bacteria on that...

 

@Fudge — I left a message at Dr. Deavon's office, so hopefully I get a call back.

 

 

Also... he's currently on a diet of lean beef and boiled rice, and it seems like part of the rice is coming out in his stool now (yellow balls). This happened the last time he was on boiled rice as well... so I think that is kind of strange.

 

Charlie's giving tons of kisses to go out though. I'll be back soon!