Poor Happy!

[ahicks51]

I brought home a rabbit, not sure if it was a protein that was new to him, and he wanted it bad. "Just unwrap it & give it to me," he seemed to say, "don't bother cooking it." So I threw the raw rabbit in the backyard, he devoured it, finished with a sparkle in his eye, and a few hours later delivered the most perfect turd I have ever seen.

 

He's been on a low-fat raw diet ever since.

 

He's doing great now, looks fabulously healthy. No meds other that vitamin/mineral supplement, mostly B vitamins.

 

Out of curiosity- how long has that been? Not that you're feeding only rabbit, I don't think, but "rabbit starvation"- in which humans have only rabbits available- is well-documented. Not enough fat in the diet can kill; this has been used by Central American dictators to slowly starve political prisoners to death, in fact.

[Guest mandm]

I fed only rabbit for about 6 weeks. He was doing very well on it, but tiring of rabbit, and I was going broke. So I crossed my fingers and tossed him some raw, lean chicken, which he also did well on. I slowly added new protein types and he now eats a good variety. I still trim all fat and remove poultry skin, so he doesn't get as much fat as a typical rawfed dog. But his coat looks wonderful, very shiny, no flakes. And I live in a cold, dry climate.

[2hounds]

Sweet pretty Happy girl, feel better soon!

[Xan]

So, raw feeders, since Happy only has her bottom teeth, and won't have them much longer, will bone meal do in place of bones? I assume so, but does it have what marrow provides, or .... ??

Not saying I'm going raw/home cooked, but I do consider it a very good idea, and do have to think about it harder each time it comes up.

[Guest LoveMyJoseyBean]

I read all of them, Xan...no advice, but sending prayers and hugs to your sweetie pie!

[RobinM]

Just seeing this and reading it through.

 

No advice, just prayers and "Happy" thoughts for you and your pretty girl.

[ahicks51]

So, raw feeders, since Happy only has her bottom teeth, and won't have them much longer, will bone meal do in place of bones? I assume so, but does it have what marrow provides, or .... ??

Not saying I'm going raw/home cooked, but I do consider it a very good idea, and do have to think about it harder each time it comes up.

 

There are other options. A grinder can be used, or simply a few swipes with a cleaver (get an old, heavy one off "eBay"- they don't make 'em like they used to- not for under a hundred bucks anyway), to reduce larger bones to kibble-sized chunks. Similarly, eggshells (cooked) can be reduced to powder. Don't know quite so much about bone meal.

[Xan]

Thanks, y'all, for coming along with me!

 

Ahicks, thanks. I'm collecting all this info to my notes!

 

Tigger pm'd me with some questions to help get more specific comments from those with more experience. This is what I wrote back to her:

The vet that was going to do the infusion (Dr. Sullivan) called me to tell me that he didn't think the blood values were what the other vet thought they were, and he didn't think it was a good idea to do the infusion. We talked for quite a long time, during which we covered a lot of ground, with the possible suspects focusing on IBD, bacterial overgrowth in the intestine, intestinal ulcer, tumor, infection somewhere from bladder to kidneys, TBDs, some combination of these, fungal infection ....

 

He said that her total protein was "low normal" at 5.2 (I think; he has my copies of the labwork right now), with ALB at I think 2.1. The question of where is the protein loss coming from is key. We're trying to get at that bit of info from the least invasive means possible, working up if necessary to true cut biopsy.

 

The antibiotic is (urgh! something like ...) ceflodoxine. She had done a round of that and metronidazole already, and done much better, 'til about a week after they ran out.

 

She was wormed about maybe two months ago with off-brand Drontal, so I'm pretty sure that's covered, along with the metronidazole more recently. The fact that the antibiotics did seem to help is encouraging. After all, tumors wouldn't react to them, right?

 

I'll remember the [Tigger's suggestion of] zantac 150. The first vet did see a lot of gas in her stomach and lower intestines (in an x-ray).

 

Her poop seems to have improved on the W/D food and two or three doses of antibiotics, but it has run the gammut from pudding, to snot-wrapped goo, to pureed kibble with extra liquid, to formed but not firm, to quite firm (on the Z/D food with antibiotics). It was the snot-wrapped goo that got this whole circus really spinning about a month ago.

[ahicks51]

The antibiotic is (urgh! something like ...) ceflodoxine. She had done a round of that and metronidazole already, and done much better, 'til about a week after they ran out.

 

Cefpodoxime. Had to look it up myself.

[Guest mandm]

So, raw feeders, since Happy only has her bottom teeth, and won't have them much longer, will bone meal do in place of bones? I assume so, but does it have what marrow provides, or .... ??

Not saying I'm going raw/home cooked, but I do consider it a very good idea, and do have to think about it harder each time it comes up.

Ground meat & bone nourish just as well as whole, except without the dental benefit, and it sounds like it's too late for that anyway.

 

I've used bone meal for calcium. It's fine, but not nearly as good as real bone.

 

It sounds like she just needs nourishment. Meat & bone, or bone meal, provide excellent nutrition. I probably wouldn't worry about giving her a perfectly balanced diet until she has stabilized and gotten some weight back. The trick is in finding the food that her body can utilize efficiently.

[ozgirl2]

Hopin' for Happy... hopin' for Happy... hopin' for Happy!!

 

 

 

[Patsy]

Sending all good thoughts your way and please tell Mama Happy she's in on the candle.

[Xan]

Thanks, guys!!

I'm watching the minute hand on the clock, waiting for 9am so I can call and see how she is! It was just awful seeing her empty bed this morning!!

[Guest zoolaine]

Sunny was diagnosed with PLE in late July - they think his is from a food intolerance. His total protein and albumin are both just below low normal. He has had testing for kidneys and liver, ultrasound (showed some spotting on his spleen and some abnormalities of the liver but no tumors) and he just underwent an endoscopic biopsy that "wasn't as helpful as we had hoped" but his small intestine "didn't look normal, it was granular and bleed easily". I was told that you should not have a full thickness biopsy because the low protein/albumin levels delay healing.

Sunny has been on a special venison and potato diet and two medications - metronidazole and budesonide. I have recently taken tigger's advice she got for Stevie and added the Zantac, probiotics and glutamine to Sunny's diet. Sunny's levels have about stayed the same despite all the interventions we are doing for him - still below low normal - so I'm not sure what the next step is. Maybe a raw diet, but I'm afraid of getting him all the nutrients he needs. We are going to the vet Saturday for more bloodwork. The good thing is that he does not act sick and his weight so far is about the same. We just picked up the PLE from his yearly blood work.

 

On a side note, I didn't realize you are in Bellingham. I love the "ham. I went to WWU and lived in the area for about 6 years before moving to Texas for physical therapy school. I'm in Yakima now but tried so hard to get a job in Bellingham when I finished school. I keep saying I have to go back and visit and eat Thai food, they have the best there.

Edited November 20, 2008 by zoolaine

[Guest Annie]

Ahicks, um, good question! Maybe they like sawdust?? I know mine eat it when it gets kicked out of the catbox (we use wood pellets for litter)!

 

She can't live forever on just meat, can she? Especially a narrow range of meats, right?

 

Trudy, that's weird about Ryan! I left all my records at the clinic for them to look at, but it was 500 ... something. Units? Percent of something? He said, at that level, he suspects the GI, more than the kidneys, which would be much higher.

 

Xan, River had a similar problem and I nearly lost him the first year he was with me. He had severe colitis caused by the hookworm infestation he came to me with. Even when the infestation was cleared up, his stool was full of mucous and blood. When I switched him to BARF (I know in your case, this could be literal!) his diarrhea stopped over night! He is still somewhat sensitive, but has been healthy and happy for the past 4 years!

 

Oh, and yes, all my pups live on meat and raw bones, only. You couldn't find a healthier bunch!

 

Edited to add that you can get raw chicken with ground up bone in it (in Canada for about $1.50 @ pound), or grind your own.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Annie

[Xan]

I just called to check on Happy. The attendant said she was bright, alert, excited to go outside, and ate well, so that's great!! DH was more worried about her being in a kennel situation than I was. That girl is still all pro. When I walk her up to the scale at the vet's, she just steps up, and stand still. Kennel life is old hat to her, not that I want her to have to live like that any longer than necessary!!

 

I'm definitely going to talk to the vet about a home-cooked/raw diet for her. :

[Guest mandm]

For those who worry that their sick greyhounds may not get complete nutrition on a raw diet, my experience may be helpful.

 

I put my sick greyhound on raw and he did beautifully. I was delighted that he could finally digest food properly and actually put on some weight. I didn't worry about complete nutrition until he was stabilized -- several months, close to a year. When he was good & healthy, then I thought about complete nutrition. I trusted that standard raw diets, either whole prey or Barf or modifications of them were healthy & complete, but because my greyhound had so many sensitivities, I knew I couldn't adhere to the basic rules of those diets. Specifically, my greyhound couldn't handle all the organ meat or fat of a standard raw diet plan. So I did a nutritional analysis of what he could eat, so I would know how to supplement any missing nutrients, since organ meat is jammed with nutrients & he coudn't handle his quota. Doing the analysis was a TON of work, and I wouldn't recommend it. But what I did find was that yes, standard raw diets, specifically the whole prey model, is indeed nutritionally complete.

 

[ahicks51]

For those who worry that their sick greyhounds may not get complete nutrition on a raw diet, my experience may be helpful.

 

I put my sick greyhound on raw and he did beautifully. I was delighted that he could finally digest food properly and actually put on some weight. I didn't worry about complete nutrition until he was stabilized -- several months, close to a year. When he was good & healthy, then I thought about complete nutrition. I trusted that standard raw diets, either whole prey or Barf or modifications of them were healthy & complete, but because my greyhound had so many sensitivities, I knew I couldn't adhere to the basic rules of those diets. Specifically, my greyhound couldn't handle all the organ meat or fat of a standard raw diet plan. So I did a nutritional analysis of what he could eat, so I would know how to supplement any missing nutrients, since organ meat is jammed with nutrients & he coudn't handle his quota. Doing the analysis was a TON of work, and I wouldn't recommend it. But what I did find was that yes, standard raw diets, specifically the whole prey model, is indeed nutritionally complete.

 

Also note that the chemist's toolbox at the trailing end of the ingredients list of bagged kibble is there at least in part because the corn, wheat, and other vegetable matter chelate and remove many of the nutrients that are found in meat. They're anti-nutrients.

 

The two guys who got locked in Bellvue and ate nothing but meat for a year (well, one was locked in for a couple of months while the other was allowed to roam free- but their urine was tested for ketone bodies to make sure they ate nothing but meat) were observed carefully by some visiting scientists from Europe who had never seen scurvy and wanted to observe its effects. They were disappointed as it never materialized. There are two lines of thought: either they were consuming vitamin C as part of the meat (the eskimos used to divvy up the right glands to make sure this didn't happen), or the carbohydrate restriction caused the body to conserve vitamin C so no more needed to be added.

 

Now, dogs make their own vitamin C (as do almost all animals, excepting a few primates and some other critters), but the point is that adding such large amounts of carbs like those found in kibble may not be good in terms of nutrition.

[Guest Vinnie]

Adding our chants for Happy to hurry home and feel better. I have a friend who is a vegetarian and does the raw diet for her pups - it was hard at first but then she remembered it wasn't her eating the meat! She couldn't do the cooked meat like we do though because the thought and smell of cooking meat really bothered her! Sending scritches and hugs.

[MP_the4pack]

Xan....your mailbox is full.

 

 

 

 

[crazygang]

Sending positive HAPPY thoughts.....

[Xan]

Just got back from the vet with Happy. He was in a big hurry, and was just squeezing a talk with me before something else, so we didn't pin down some loose ends, but we're sort of going on a presumptive diagnosis of IBD at this point. We also will probably hit her with Doxycycline because of her high risk for exposure to tbd. There are a few lab tests out that will come back tomorrow afternoon (urine culture, fecal, in which they saw some blood : ), and we'll talk more, then.

 

I asked about a liver function test, and he agreed it would be a good idea. I asked about raw or home-cooked, and he said, if you can do FRESH raw ("like, you kill a chicken and give it to her"), he thinks that would be fine, but is reluctant to feed her meat that might have developed bacteria sitting in a grocery store when she's already got problems. Which I can understand. He suggested maybe trying some of that once we had her more stabilized, back on Z/D and tylan powder, and at least the antibiotics she's already started on. He did explain that the corn etc. in the z/d is broken down so small it's not identifiable to the body as an allergen, so it's supposed to be okay. It's not a magic bullet; some dogs don't do well on it. We'll have to see how it goes.

 

She did fine on Z/D until the antibiotics wore off, so ....... We'll see.

 

I did make an appointment to start Pogo on the blood donor program starting Sunday, to help defray the cost (and heck, that boy .... It's time for some PAYBACK!!! )

 

Okay, I'm back to doing caricatures! HfH and I need the money!

[GreyPoopon]

 

I sure hope that it turns out to be something you can control through diet or a not-too-expensive drug.

[patricia]

Sending prayers diet takes care of the problem. Hugs all the way around.

[Guest kaotic1]

Get better Happy!!! Don't worry your mom so!!!