Clomicalm

[NewGrey2017]

All -

 

Considering asking vet for a clomicalm prescription.

 

Would be very interested in hearing from those who have used this.

 

Specifically:

 

Why did you use it?

What dosage?

What was the outcome?

Were there any side effects?

 

Thanks so much.

 

[seeh2o]

I used it for my boy, Carl, when he had terrible SA. It takes a while to get up to therapeutic level in the blood stream, but it really worked for him. He had zero side effects, personality remained the same, not dopey or drowsy. Carl weighed 72lbs, but I can't remember his dosage. He was on the human version because Clomicalm had just come out and was $$$, the human version was pennies on the dollar. I think I only had him on it maybe 6 months, I wish I'd left him on it about a year to really root his new and greatly improved coping skills. It doesn't work for all dogs, but there are other ones that will likely work. What do you need it for?

[greysmom]

Like all anti anxiety meds, clomicalm can be used for a variety of reasons - separation anxiety is probably the most common. It's usually the drug that most vets prescribe first as it's one of the only ones specifically manufactured for veterinary use. In general, they help put the dog's brain in a calmer space by altering the chemical make up, allowing the dog to better accept counter condition training (Alone Training in the case of Separation Anxiety) to whatever is causing the anxiety.

 

And, as with people, exactly *how* anti anxiety medications work in dogs isn't well understood. Two dogs can take the same drug, for the same issue, and it will work great for one and not at all for the other. Or the dosages may need to be vastly different. Or the timing of giving the medication.

 

Generally, clomicalm is fairly safe for dogs to use, though every once in a while an individual dog will have a bad reaction. FWIW, the two dogs I had that tried clomicalm for generalized anxiety were totally fine taking it - it helped one and didn't help the other. No side effects at all aside from some initial sedation and lower appetite. On the dog clomicalm didn't work for, we tried another two or three drugs (off label useage of human anti anxiety drugs) and finally found Trazadone worked best for her.

 

If you search in the Training and Behavior section for threads about Separation Anxiety, anxiety, and other key words you will find hundreds of threads with a lot of information on using anti anxiety drugs.

[robinw]

Tried it with my Iker and it did nothing. I decided to work around his personality and accept him for the shy, traumatized guy that he is as he wasn't in danger of hurting himself or others.

[NewGrey2017]

. What do you need it for?

 

Separation anxiety, fear anxiety, general anxiety.....my anxiety.

 

He wants to fight any German Shepherd/or similar sized dog but is terrified of Dachshunds and smaller. He barks in our face every night from 6-9PM. He has bitten me several times, once hard enough to draw blood. He tries to attack many people who enter the house. Some he doesn't care about, but we never know. He wants to kill his reflection in the glass door to the deck. He cries if we go to the bathroom.

 

It's not one specific thing, it's many.

 

We went to a DVM behaviorist who took one look at him and declared him highly stressed. They wanted to give him strong doses of Prozac or similar. We have a neighbor whose aggressive dog became super aggressive on Prozac. Clomicalm worked for them. I want to reduce his stress, but do him the least amount of harm possible. This drug seemed to be a good starting place. It was noted in the I'll Be Home Soon book that we bought.

[DonnaBehr]

I used it with success for one of my greys who had SA. It also helped when I leash walker her and she started heeling instead of pulling constantly.

 

Hope you had his thyroid checked?

[NewGrey2017]

Hope you had his thyroid checked?

 

Yes. We did the 5 panel evaluation at Michigan State. He is hypothyroid. Below is their interpretation. He is on Soloxine and we continue to monkey with the dosage after each blood test. He was at 1.6mg per day, up from 1.2, but we are dropping to .8mg per day. Yesterday he was beyond hyper. Today, he has barely moved, ate grass and not interested in food. Each day is an adventure.

 

 

"The positive autoantibody results are a marker for lymphocytic thyroiditis. This dog also has a positive T3 autoantibody result. The T3 autoantibody interferes with assay of T3 (false decrease) and free T3 (false increase), so those measured concentrations are not accurate. The combination of low thyroid concentrations, elevation of thyroid stimulating hormone, and positive autoantibody results confirms a diagnosis of hypothyroidism due to lymphocytic thyroiditis. Oral administration of thyroxine is indicated with a follow-up evaluation of the clinical response.

Results as these occur in greyhounds but are uncommon. Has there also been weight gain? I was interested to see the description of aggression in the history. Changes in mentation can be a manifestation of hypothyroidism in some dogs. I would appreciate hearing whether or not there is a resolution of the signs of aggression with thyroid supplementation."

Edited August 9, 2018 by NewGrey2017

[greysmom]

Our adoption group has had several dogs coming in for adoption show similar signs of aggression/anxiety due to hypothyroid diagnosis. Supplementation helped all of them tremendously.

 

I would hold off - if you can - adding another drug into the mix until his thyroid is stable. It may not be needed once he has the proper amount of hormones in his system.

[NeylasMom]

Why wouldn't you go with the vet behaviorist's recommendation? Yes, Prozac can reduce inhibition, which can increase aggression, but its uncommon and you won't know until you try it. Or at least raise your concern with the VB and see what she says.

[NewGrey2017]

Why wouldn't you go with the vet behaviorist's recommendation? Yes, Prozac can reduce inhibition, which can increase aggression, but its uncommon and you won't know until you try it. Or at least raise your concern with the VB and see what she says.

We have discontinued with the behaviorist. They looked at him for 30 minutes and made this recommendation. There was no counter conditioning provided. That came "later" but the initial visit was $545. Not sure I could afford "later". We recently met a neighbor who went to the same group and we both agreed that they were expensive but not helpful. They tried Prozac and their dog became extremely aggressive. Their vet gave them Clomicalm and they said he is like a new dog. I'm trying to do the least harm to our dog.

 

Our adoption group has had several dogs coming in for adoption show similar signs of aggression/anxiety due to hypothyroid diagnosis. Supplementation helped all of them tremendously.

 

I would hold off - if you can - adding another drug into the mix until his thyroid is stable. It may not be needed once he has the proper amount of hormones in his system.

We had the MSU test done April 27th. He has been on the thyroid meds since about May 5th. The vet has been checking his T4 and upping the dosage as we go. On the visit last Saturday, I said we can't go any higher. The vet contacted MSU who said to cut the dosage in half and test his TSH in a few weeks. To paraphrase, too many things "stick" to the T4 in greyhounds for the results to be reliable in a vacuum.

 

Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions. It has been a tough nine months but we remain hopeful.

 

One more question: We have been working with a few behavioral people and our adoption group and ALL of them say to lock him upstairs when we are having people over. (This assumes we know when people are coming over.) They recommend giving him a "chew". I used to give my golden retriever rawhide 20 years ago, but we stopped because he would get very possessive of it and I also read it was terrible for dogs. What do people give their greyhounds that they enjoy and takes them an hour or so to devour?

[greysmom]

Freeze peanut butter/cream cheese/canned food and kibble (part of his regular meal amount) in a large Kong appropriate for his chewing style. If he's not enthused by the Kong try soaking it in some broth overnight to get rid of the rubbery taste.

 

You can also try treat puzzle toys, or food wobblers. Some people swear by yak milk chews. There are also loads of "body part" chewing options if he can handle them digestively - bully sticks, ears, hooves - that are safer than rawhide, though I would probably not give a dog a chew like that unsupervised.

 

Ask your friends to call or text if they are going to drop by. It shouldn't be that big of a deal. That will give you a few minutes heads up to get him situated for everyone's safety. A crate or xpen can also be used to isolate him safely closer to the action, and/or at least keep him away from those coming in the front door.

[NewGrey2017]

@greysmom - Thanks.

 

He has an XL Kong and he loves it, mainly because it probably tastes like peanut butter by now. He plays with it most nights tossing it in the air and letting it bounce. One day he's going to break the TV screen. He has a puzzle toy, but although he knows there is food in there, he mainly picks it up in his mouth and tosses it. I think it frustrates him.

 

He loves his crate and I've been hesitant to use that as a safe space mainly because I don't want him to change his view of it. We bought a 4' gate for our bedroom (also his bedroom) and I may try that first. He associates that bed with sleeping.

[macoduck]

We used Prozac for our first greyhound in 2002. No aggression but Gracie had severe anxiety when left alone. She was only on it for 4 months, including the initial beginning phase and the tapering off phase. Other than helping her adjust to being in a new home there were non other behavior changes. She went from being extremely fearful to become a TDI therapy dog.

 

We used Clomicalm on our current greyhound, Mazy, to deal with thunderstorm phobia. Eventually we switched to Trazodone. Vet had us bring her in while dosed on it to make sure her heartbeat was ok since she said some dogs don't do well on it.

 

We have never had an aggressive dog of any breed here, so I'm not much help. I do have some other suggestions though.

 

If you don't mind running a diffuser all day try the Calm-a-Mile blend from www.animalEO/info I run the NEAT version 1. in a diffuser and 2. mix a few drops in a small distilled water spray bottle. I use the RTU to drip down Mazy's back. It was developed by Melissa Shelton DVM. Her products are cat safe. I prefer her blends to using a plain essential oil like lavender since she mixes for the most acceptable/tolerable blends for pets. Her website can be overwhelming so PM me if you have any questions.

 

I have also added to our thunderphobia arsenal ComposureMax liquid from Chewy.com. NeylasMom had suggested it.

 

The ComposureMax combined with the diffusion of Calm-a-Mile may help to take the edge off of your boy.

[NeylasMom]

We have discontinued with the behaviorist. They looked at him for 30 minutes and made this recommendation. There was no counter conditioning provided. That came "later" but the initial visit was $545. Not sure I could afford "later". We recently met a neighbor who went to the same group and we both agreed that they were expensive but not helpful. They tried Prozac and their dog became extremely aggressive. Their vet gave them Clomicalm and they said he is like a new dog. I'm trying to do the least harm to our dog.

 

We had the MSU test done April 27th. He has been on the thyroid meds since about May 5th. The vet has been checking his T4 and upping the dosage as we go. On the visit last Saturday, I said we can't go any higher. The vet contacted MSU who said to cut the dosage in half and test his TSH in a few weeks. To paraphrase, too many things "stick" to the T4 in greyhounds for the results to be reliable in a vacuum.

 

Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions. It has been a tough nine months but we remain hopeful.

 

One more question: We have been working with a few behavioral people and our adoption group and ALL of them say to lock him upstairs when we are having people over. (This assumes we know when people are coming over.) They recommend giving him a "chew". I used to give my golden retriever rawhide 20 years ago, but we stopped because he would get very possessive of it and I also read it was terrible for dogs. What do people give their greyhounds that they enjoy and takes them an hour or so to devour?

Who did you see? Dr. Sinn, Dr. Pike, or someone else? It's not uncommon for vet behaviorists to want time for the medication to get on board and for the dog's anxiety levels to drop before starting CC&D or other training, and it can take some time for the meds to fully kick in and/or find the right dosage though even with the longer term meds like SSRIs you will usually see some improvement immediately. Having said that, Dr. Pike includes the follow session where she gives you the training info as part of the package. Regardless, follow-up by phone and certainly by email should be included. You've already paid the money, so why not follow-up? You can take or leave the advice you get back, but I would raise your concern about Prozac and wanting to try Chlomicalm instead (I'm going to assume you didn't see Dr. Pike simply because she usually chooses that first over Prozac) and see if they are receptive. I'm also not clear on when the thyroid testing happened relative to your visit with them. I would certainly want the VB involved in that too. You could ask your vet to collaborate directly with the VB so the final recommendation comes through your vet if that would make you more comfortable. Most VBs will do that at no charge for dogs they've never seen as clients, so it certainly shouldn't be a problem here. Or maybe you had a VB who was total crap and you can just disregard all of this, but I know Dr. Pike and especially Dr. Sinn quite well and think you should give either a second chance and just express your concerns (including your disappointment with what you got for your $545).

 

I never did get a call from you when I offered to chat by phone to see if I could be helpful. I work closely with both Dr's Sinn & Pike to develop and implement training plans and I know other trainers in the VA area who do as well. I really think you need that help, in addition to the collaboration between the VB and your vet to make sure the thyroid issue is being addressed appropriately as that could be a HUGE factor in what's going on here. It's again more money, but you might also think about sending all of the thyroid info - test results, dose changes, etc. to Dr. Couto and getting his input.

 

As for what to do with him when guests come over - yes, the best strategy for now is management, which means putting him somewhere quiet, safely away from guests, but this is only a good option if he's comfortable being isolated for short periods of time in that space so you'll potentially need to work on that separately. If his crate is in the room where guests will be, or in a pathway they'll use to get to the kitchen or bathroom, then I wouldn't go that route. That will keep your guests safe, but it won't keep him safe and may further sensitize him. But if he likes being crated, moving the crate or putting up a second crate somewhere where guests don't go could work. Otherwise, work on gating him into a room where he can't see or hear people with a baby gate or x-pen that he can't knock down. A white noise machine and/or classical music may also help drown out the sounds from visitors and keep him calm. You could also try a thundershirt for those short periods, and put a DAP diffuser in the room where he will be gated. As far as food items to give him, my favorites are bully sticks (nice thick ones will last longer) or stuffed, layered and frozen Kongs or (my personal favorite), Toppls from West Paw (https://www.westpaw.com/dog-toys/puzzle/toppl-treat-toy). I would portion out some of his kibble for that day and then later that with something softer like Greek yogurt, canned dog food, meat baby food, etc. and freeze in advance. That will last much longer than some PB stuffed inside.

 

ETA: If you absolutely refuse to follow-up with the VB and the choices are ask the vet for Chlomicalm or do nothing, then yes, please ask your vet for the Chlomicalm. Side effects are likely to be mild and your dog needs relief. Even if the thyroid problem was the issue and gets addressed, he's been practicing these behaviors long enough that you will still need additional help. But I would try to make sure you've got the thyroid medication settled asap.

Edited August 10, 2018 by NeylasMom

[NewGrey2017]

@macoduck - Thanks. I will look into those. Funny thing, thunder doesn't seem to phase him and he breezed through the 4th of July.

 

@Neylasmom - Thanks. I sent you a PM.

 

 

FYI - Vet sent Clomicalm to our human pharmacy and it was $370 for 30 days worth. Gulp. So we declined and I'm working with the vet to find an alternative we can afford.