Why Isn't She Acting Sick?

[Annette]

Miriam had her liver biopsied on October 14th. What should have been a simple laparoscopic biopsy turned into a full blown surgical biopsy. Because the size of her spleen and how it is positioned, her spleen was nicked when they went in for the laparoscopic biopsy. Once they stopped the bleeding, they had to do a full surgical biopsy. One thing they did was staple her incision instead of stitching it. I don't know if that made a difference, but she really did not show much interest in the incision site.

 

She does have copper storage disease. Her copper level: 2268 ppm (normal 137-400; >2000 consistent with primary copper hepatopathy). She will be on D-penicillamine for both copper and lead.

 

The unsettling number that came back was lead: 32 ppm (normal <3.0). Her lead level is 10 times higher than normal. Why doesn't she show any signs of sickness???

 

The house is only 9 years old, so we do not have lead paint or pipes. Sent in soil samples and a water sample for testing. Hopefully we will be getting results in less than a week.

 

The lab that analyzed the lead levels do not believe they made a mistake. They are surprised that she shows no signs of lead intoxication. They are saying the elevated levels could be due to an exposure to lead a long time ago. How would she have been exposed to lead a long time ago?

 

Miriam will be on a low copper diet. We are going through the University of Minnesota Pet Nutrition to formulate a homemade diet. We do have a bag of Hill's Liver Prescription Diet, but we are not going to continue with it once Miriam finishes it up.

 

When I looked on Hill's website for the liver diet, the website showed a different copper content than on the bag that is in our pantry. I contacted them via their website and they were supposed to have someone get back to me and they haven't so far. I also contacted them via online chat to find out how the copper content was calculated per serving. I have had one person say it was calculate based on calories while I calculated it based on weight. When I asked the person how the copper content was calculated, I was told to contact my veterinarian. When I told her that a veterinarian (not Miriam's veterinarian, just a veterinarian that we know) told us to contact Hill's she said that veterinarians have access to some special webpage. Well, since I am the customer, I should be able to find out from the company how to calculate the copper content. I told her that and then I asked who I can contact to file a complaint. She then attempted to transfer me to someone who could supposedly help me. She then said that the transfer would not go through and gave me a phone number to call and a reference number.

 

I will call Hill's on Friday. I don't have a job, but I am volunteering at the local historical society and don't want to bring my bad mood that I will most likely have after speaking with customer service to work with me.

 

At least the political ads are done till the next election, so that isn't annoying me now.

[XTRAWLD]

I had no idea there were copper levels in kibble. Must be naturally occurring? Would considering a switch to raw be worth it? Is she on any supplements? What track did she race at? Were there high values there and she's had it all her life?

[3greytjoys]

How would she have been exposed to lead a long time ago?

 

She might have had lead exposure from ingesting water supplied by old, city mainline lead pipes.

 

This article is lengthy but includes a U.S. map showing states discovered to have excessive lead contamination.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/03/11/nearly-2000-water-systems-fail-lead-tests/81220466/

 

Hope your home/soil lab test results are clear. If so, if Miriam's racing owner is still living, she might be interested to learn about Miriam's condition since copper and lead is harmful to humans and children. If needed, NGA should be able to provide her contact information. I'm not sure if Miriam was bred in Abeline, KS, but appears she raced in AL and AR, so may have been exposed before arriving in WI.

 

I'm so sorry Miriam is stricken with this diagnosis. If her test results are accurate, I can't imagine that she would not be feeling affects.

 

Glad you're living in a newer home. (BTW, tile might be another consideration.)

[GreyTzu]

Disco loved Hill's Liver diet. Disco survived lepto. and was on Hills LD for about 6 months and he did very well on it. Yes, it is expensive, but it helped Disco. My others loved it also. Recently, Sally Ride had a bout of pancreatitis and was on Hills for a month or two. She is doing well and back to eating whatever she can find, vacuum up off of the floor, or steal from the other dogs. This was our experience with Hills LD. We were very satisfied with it.

 

It is you and YOUR Vet who need to make the right decision for your dog. Do not allow the opinions of internet "friends" to obfuscate what the Vet thinks. He is a professional. Ask, do your own research, talk to Hills or other actual professionals, and then decide. The majority of us are simply professional "This is my experience or opinion" posters and/or PITA's. :heehee

 

Remember that whatever you decide IS the right choice. You need to do what is best for you, your dog, and your household.

 

Good luck.

[Walliered]

I am feeding mine Honest Kitchen Keen. Working good and sent right to my door with Chewy.com

[PrairieProf]

No experience with your situation, but I can tell you that Hill's nutrient values can vary when you see different listings because often the nutrients are printed based on dry matter in the food, and sometimes "as fed." Everything will have higher percentages when you are reading a table based on dry matter. It can be a little disorienting.

Edited November 11, 2016 by PrairieProf

[cleptogrey]

Bedlington terriers have an inherent copper problem. Maybe some research on the bt club of America can help find some alternative food suggestions. I unfortunately am pissed at hills. The pricing of their rx diets makes it so that unless you're blessed with a trust fund for your dog you can't afford it. I have both spoken and written to customer service and received a $5 coupon.

 

Sorry to hear about your dog's conditions.

[NeylasMom]

I'm sorry that you are dealing with this. Unfortunately I have zero advice, but do want to follow along to hear about Miriam's progress. I can't remember, how long have you had Miriam, or how long did you have her before you became concerned? I don't remember details of your old post - was it just values from a routine blood panel that led to this?

 

Is a home cooked or raw diet a possibility or too risky with this disease? Both can be done inexpensively I think.

 

Hoping you get it sorted out easily. You may not be feeling this way, but if you are feeling overwhelmed at all dealing with this after losing Pogo, just know I get it. Hang in there.

Edited November 11, 2016 by NeylasMom

[Annette]

I'm sorry that you are dealing with this. Unfortunately I have zero advice, but do want to follow along to hear about Miriam's progress. I can't remember, how long have you had Miriam, or how long did you have her before you became concerned? I don't remember details of your old post - was it just values from a routine blood panel that led to this?

 

Is a home cooked or raw diet a possibility or too risky with this disease? Both can be done inexpensively I think.

 

Hoping you get it sorted out easily. You may not be feeling this way, but if you are feeling overwhelmed at all dealing with this after losing Pogo, just know I get it. Hang in there.

 

I will be working with Veterinary Nutrition Program at the University of Minnesota to create a home cooked diet that will meet Miriam's nutritional needs.

 

Hill's will not give me a straight answer about copper content in their liver diet. I have been told the copper content per serving should be calculated based on calories and I have been told the copper content per serving should be calculated based on weight. When I asked them how to calculate it I was told to contact my veterinarian. I basically told them that I wanted to calculate the content myself, just give me the formula to calculate it, I have to pay for the food so I should be able to get the information I need to calculate the copper content.

 

We have had Miriam for 5 years. We found out her liver values were out of wack in March of this year when she had an episioplasty. The numbers came down a bit but never into a normal range. We finally had her liver biopsied to make sure she wasn't in liver failure (she is not). When they did a fine needle aspirate there was some copper present and the full biopsy confirmed it.

 

Copper storage disease isn't caused by copper in the environment. When a dog has copper storage disease, their liver is unable to process copper properly and their copper intake must be limited. Miriam will be on a chleating drug for 2 - 4 months and on a special diet for the rest of her life.

 

Our soil lead report came back and we do not have high lead in our soil. Still waiting for the water lead and copper report to come back. We also are having the water tested for copper since we have copper plumbing. If we have copper leaching we need to know that and filter that out.

 

Hopefully the water test results will come back soon. I have been drinking more juice and milk than water and I miss water. One of our neighbors has their water tested regularly because they operate a dairy farm so I filled a couple 5 gallon jugs with their water and I can go over there and fill up more when needed.

 

That's it for now. I will update when the water test comes back.

[XTRAWLD]

Out of curiosity, I checked the two kibble bags I have on hand which I feed as treat/reward only as Ryder is fed raw, and as a mineral additive copper is certainly added, but I didn't see a breakdown of it specifically (% wise) - only included on the ingredient list. Would an LTD kibble have a lesser content of minerals too? I know they definitely keep a more definitive ingredient for those particular kibbles....

 

Very interesting to say the least and you guys are in my thoughts. Please continue to keep us updated.

[locket]

Just to add re: why isn't she showing symptoms.

Everybody (houndie) is different. What can cause illness in someone will not show in others. I work in a toxicology lab and once we received a sample of a lady that was eating so much fish that her mercury levels were 100 times the normal, median exposition. We got the sample for a totally different reason. Why wasn't she showing symptoms of mercury poisoning? We don't really know, it was (to us) a miracle she was not poisoned with all the mercury in her system. We did call her to let her know to restrict her fish intake (she was, afterall, above reasonable threshold).

So whatever it is, if you ever find, limit exposition, but if it is not causing her any harm, she might just be very tolerant of lead.