KickReturn Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Hello All, As posted in introduction, I am back in the game. 24 hours after Hester's passing I received a "tap on the shoulder". I am now in possession of Archer, a 19 month old, large male. He is small dog friendly, cat friendly, playful, happy, sweet, gentle. A dream in the house, a silent sleeper, decent eater. An overall easy dog. BUT and it's a big but, he gets excited when he sees deer, and he absolutely goes berserk when he sees rabbits. Problem is I live in a neighborhood where the amount of wildlife is beyond belief. Last night we encountered twenty rabbits and 8 deer in one hour. That is typical. While Archer is still unsure about the deer, the reaction to the rabbits is the full deal: bucking, leaping, trying to pull out of the collar. My tactic has been to shorten right up onto the martingale with my grip so that it is completely tight, and just keep walking. Even thought he tries to thrash and get after the rabbits, I give him absolutely no leeway and just march on. I am very fit and strong and even though he is a beast of a Greyhound, I can completely control him if I want to. After about 20 steps he gives up and returns to somewhat normal walking although he spends a good deal of the walk in super alert hunting mode. I have tried distraction/redirection techniques but there is zero response. The Cesar Milan technique of giving a little pinch on the hip or shoulder does help a little to break his focus. Please provide suggestions for various tactics and handling techniques. He has only been here a day. and we have only been on two walks. so I am hoping that he will settle as time passes - but wow. I also feel terrible for having to be firm about something that is a part of his very essence. I prefer a gentle approach but will do whatever it takes to help him. I am not worried about him escaping from the collar and would like to avoid using a harness unless it changes his reaction for some reason. A few photos if you missed his intro: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spottydog Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Django would go beserk seeing other dogs, and to a lesser extent, bunnies. He was very food motivated so we always carried a cookie bag and in time, he would look at us when he saw his trigger creatures instead of reacting. It took a *long* time, but it worked. We also used a little Cesar Milan as a last resort early on, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandiandwe Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 I'm sorry to hear about Hester. I've not been on here much, but wanted to mark the passing of a Greytalk institution. As for Archer, well, you get the dog you deserve, so after your dreamboat, you're in for some fun! First, distraction techniques won't work when he's in full prey drive. When they're like that, their brains are completely switched off to you and are being flooded will all of the exciting and good hormones. They're also very very stressed. The problem I've experienced is that if I've not been able to get Paige 'down' from her high, we can end up in an increasingly hyped up state because her brain and body haven't had enough time between the exciting times to drop down, or I've not given her a release. You also need to try to catch him before he escalates. Second, is he food motivated or toy motivated? What worked for me was shoving something chewy into Paige's mouth as soon as we saw something exciting. Given she was fixating at about 400 metres, this meant hyper vigilance on my part and a lot of treats. She started by spitting them out and then carrying on, but over several weeks, she gradually came to look at me for the treat when she saw something interesting. It had to be something chewy though, like a jerky of some sort, and quite a large piece because she was then able to chew it aggressively which seemed to settle her down. Given she is muzzled that was my only option, but I wondered about you using a squeaky toy or chew toy for Archer to be given as a distraction. Third, when he begins to settle a bit, you can begin more explicitly training 'look at me'. I would start doing that at home away from distractions if possible. Fourth, can you walk anywhere without wildlife? I know it might be difficult, but a bit of time for Archer to bond a bit with you, (perhaps some obedience classes or something?) while not getting him all riled up. Fifth, I use a harness with a front clip especially when Paige is completely gone. But I started because I was seriously worried about her damaging her neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palmettobug Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 He's very handsome! I second the harness. Quote Current Crew: Gino-Gene-Eugene! (Eastnor Rebel: Makeshift x Celtic Dream); Fuzzy the Goo-Goo Girl (BGR Fuzzy Navel: Boc's Blast Off x Superior Peace); Roman the Giant Galoot! (Imark Roman: Crossfire Clyde x Shana Wookie); Kitties Archie and Dixie Forever Missed: K9 Sasha (2001-2015); Johnny (John Reese--Gable Dodge x O'Jays) (2011-19); the kitties Terry and Bibbi; and all the others I've had the privilege to know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3greytjoys Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 (edited) Congrats! Yes, good tips above. Everything is too new to flood (taunt him) with visual over-stimulation of wildlife. I'd suggest temporarily reducing the size of Archer's new world to your own house and (hopefully well fenced) yard for a while. Archer needs a foundation of learning his new home and family first, before introducing challenging stimuli through walks/hikes. Focus on bonding with Archer, and begin positive method shaping techniques (I just posted about teaching "watch me" cue in another thread). Veterinary behaviorist, late Dr. Sophia Yin's website offers excellent positive reinforcement training methods based on science. https://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/dr-yins-top-10-dog-training-tips/ I'd recommend positive method obedience training classes if available in your area (not outdated methods used by C. Millan -- decades long proven to cause and/or increase aggression!). Archer needs to learn all the basics especially come, stay, leave it, drop it, wait, etc. Thereafter, you could begin expanding Archer's world, and I would very strongly recommend using a reflective martingale collar and harness for control and to prevent throat and neck damage. (We've had hounds arrive with lifetime progressive paralysis of the throat. It can be further damaged by collar tightening.) If available in your region, later, consider channeling his drive into (fenced area) agility training and/or other focused canine sporting activities. If you have a cat, please do not let the cat outside when Archer has access to the yard. Outside = game on, even for cat-workable (aka: cat-friendly/cat-safe) hounds. I'm sure you remember posting about the poor Greyhound who jumped out of an open second story window. Please be extra careful to manage house and car windows, doors and gates so Archer doesn't attempt to sail through them going after prey. Dogs will jump out of moving vehicle windows. I see he has a reflective collar, but you may want to consider this embroidered reflective ID collar (side release) that can be read from afar to keep on him 24/7 (only exception is when/if he is ever locked in a crate inside the house). http://www.fancyk9s.com/collar/identification (Black webbing + thread is most visible on the light reflective material, IMO.) Embroidered telephone # was blocked for posting but is visible from afar. Edited July 25, 2016 by 3greytjoys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHead Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 From my experience, daily exposure will really help to lesson excitement/prey-drive. Teague used to have a high prey drive, but I own four rabbits (and other critters) and he is exposed to other animals on our daily walks. After time, he just got used to them and now he has almost no reaction. I also adopted a Dominican street dog in March. She was obsessed with birds. She would lunge, whine and get excited over every little sparrow or flock on the trail. I basically just ignored her and kept moving past without letting her chase them. It did take a bit of time, but we have done so many long walks and runs on the trail and she has finally realized that they aren't very exciting any more. To be honest, the redirecting/treat training people recommend didn't do a thing since she was so excited...the thing that helped the most was just exposure and time. I know you put in a lot of miles with your dogs, so my guess is he will get used to things with time and the excitement period will wear off in a month or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KickReturn Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 From my experience, daily exposure will really help to lesson excitement/prey-drive. Teague used to have a high prey drive, but I own four rabbits (and other critters) and he is exposed to other animals on our daily walks. After time, he just got used to them and now he has almost no reaction. I also adopted a Dominican street dog in March. She was obsessed with birds. She would lunge, whine and get excited over every little sparrow or flock on the trail. I basically just ignored her and kept moving past without letting her chase them. It did take a bit of time, but we have done so many long walks and runs on the trail and she has finally realized that they aren't very exciting any more. To be honest, the redirecting/treat training people recommend didn't do a thing since she was so excited...the thing that helped the most was just exposure and time. I know you put in a lot of miles with your dogs, so my guess is he will get used to things with time and the excitement period will wear off in a month or two. This is very reassuring and I sincerely hope this is my experience. Tonight Archer was keen to go for his evening walk because he knew he would be going "hunting". His head was on a swivel. And the rabbits were out in force. He would "turn off" when he did stop to sniff and pee, but then right back at it. I had salami and roast chicken in my pocket and used it. A few times I could get his mind on me but only briefly. There is hope. He's young, he doesn't know me, and he is in a new world. I will be very patient. On a brighter note, I had Hester's gal pal visit and she taught him the stairs. She just left and he is sitting in our living room with an erection, crying. The whole thing is a bit hilarious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesiRayMom Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Oh, this is gonna be good. I can't wait to hear the stories, I'm already chuckling over his reaction to the gal pal. I lost Desi in May.....he was absolutely perfect for me, and I could hardly look at adoptible hounds, because I knew none would be as perfect. Local group had an emergency.....field trial hound (he's lived outside all his life), young, mangled foot, given up to rescue. OSU put his front left leg in a humongous cast up to his elbow....group needed a quiet home where he could recuperate for the next 7 weeks. They called, I was caught in a weak moment & couldn't refuse. 5 min in, hiked his leg on his food stand. 15 min - drinking out of the toilet. 30 min - had that big cast up on the counter looking for goodies. He is supposed to be quiet....5 min walks only for potty calls. Last night I experienced his first butt tuck zoomie - in a circle around me on a 6 ft leash. That was in response to a cow in the pasture 1/4 mile away. Guess we'll just enjoy the ride. Good Luck! Quote Blessed is the person who has earned the love of an old dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KickReturn Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 Went to a forest this morning where there are no rabbits. He was a different dog. The greetings with other dogs also went very well. But wow what a difference compared to Hester. Hester had the law laid down before approaching dogs were within 30 feet. This guy just wants to party. Does not control the other dogs in the slightest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claudiav Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 I hope Arhcer settles down with time... my boy is NUTS about non-greys, squirrels, and bunnies... he does the "bucking bronco" as well and even bites me, or my girl, out of sheer excitement/adrenaline... i used a head collar for a while, but he was still uncontrollable, and hurt his neck that way... it took several months of Gabapentin & Tramadol, and harness walking, to heal... now i just tug on his permanent id collar, when i see him alerting, even before i see what has his attention... if i catch him BEFORE he goes berserk, i can stop him in his tracks... otherwise, i stop, stand in front of him and block all sight to whatever has his attention, until it passes... he was a chow hound when he first came home with me, but now, two yrs later, he is no longer motivated by food, and outdoors, especially, no treat will draw his attention away from those infidel doggies/squirrels/bunnies... so i block him, distract him, change route... and because i'm afraid of reinjuring his neck, he always wears a harness, though i am not a fan of them... can't wait to hear about Archer's adventures and see his pictures/videos.... he is absolutely stunning!!!! enjoy him... i'm so glad you could not pass the opportunity to give him a home... i was worried you would not get another houndie after loosing Hester... he was a magnificent pup, but i'm sure he would have wanted you to give another pup a wonderful home and life... Quote Image removed, not within Signature Guidelines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palmettobug Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Meant to add--hopefully, the use of the harness can save your shoulder/neck if he pulls too hard or yanks you. I know I've got damage in my neck and shoulder from those many years my Lab would drag me around while we were working (harnesses were verboten for some strange reason!) Quote Current Crew: Gino-Gene-Eugene! (Eastnor Rebel: Makeshift x Celtic Dream); Fuzzy the Goo-Goo Girl (BGR Fuzzy Navel: Boc's Blast Off x Superior Peace); Roman the Giant Galoot! (Imark Roman: Crossfire Clyde x Shana Wookie); Kitties Archie and Dixie Forever Missed: K9 Sasha (2001-2015); Johnny (John Reese--Gable Dodge x O'Jays) (2011-19); the kitties Terry and Bibbi; and all the others I've had the privilege to know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest johnnydrum Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 (edited) young, mangled foot, given up to rescue. OSU put his frontleft leg in a humongous cast up to his elbow....group needed a quiet home where he could recuperate for the next 7 weeks. They called, I was caught in a weak moment & couldn't refuse. 5 min in, hiked his leg on his food stand. 15 min - drinking out of the toilet. 30 min - had that big cast up on the counter looking for goodies. He is supposed to be quiet....5 min walks only for potty calls. Last night I experienced his first butt tuck zoomie - in a circle around me on a 6 ft leash. That was in response to a cow in the pasture 1/4 mile away. Guess we'll just enjoy the ride. Good Luck! DesiRayMum: lol i just read that out to our living room and we are all laughing. Kickreturn: Never met before but you sound like an exceptional person and your new boy is stunning. We are howling here in the UK at his erection faux paus....brilliant! Best of luck Edited July 26, 2016 by johnnydrum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KickReturn Posted July 27, 2016 Author Share Posted July 27, 2016 Kickreturn: Never met before but you sound like an exceptional person... Thanks, but I am an ordinary person who happened to adopt a most unusual Greyhound (my previous). Search any posts with the name "Hester" in the title or body and you will see what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diane4114 Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 I was sorry to hear about Hester. I always loved your adventures. One day I will have a cow doggie. Archer is very handsome. Between my own that were fresh off the track and just over 30 fosters ... they will get excited with anything that is within their line of sight. It doesn't matter the size. I've had a few that would almost do back flips the first few sightings. I don't have a fenced yard, so we are walking the streets (quiet village). Most will after repeated sightings will calm down when walking. I don't let them pull me and there are a lot of NO's in the beginning. What may also help me is that I am usually walking one or two others that are not reactive to other animals. It can take some time, but most of the time it will work out. Quote Willow( Hi Tech Popandgo ) CGC #31965 Calico Salad x MayPop 8-9-93/9-24-07 Austin( Nodak Austin ) #55202 Chrisse's Twelve x Lotsa Liz 2-25-96/2-15-05 Matt( Kelsos Metaphor ) #90695 Oswald Cobblepot x Kelso's Movita 8-10-00/2-28-14 Buddy (Aljo Class Act) #78137 Action By Design x Miss Classy 12-8-98/8-29-09 Sonny (Onaim Excalibur)#97927 Flying Train x Rough Diamond 9-7-01/1-9-2016Hunter (SS Snow Roll) #35135 Craigie Whistler x Lightning Snow 10-4-2005/9-23-17 Leo (Yolo Empleo)#72060 4-13-18 Fiesta Paraguas x Mega Bien Hecho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KickReturn Posted July 27, 2016 Author Share Posted July 27, 2016 Thanks Diane, that is good to hear. I am firm with Archer so he knows the chase is not going to happen. I just hate "manhandling" a dog for any reason but I guess it is for his own good. He is not food motivated at all so I am limited to physical interventions. I am a bit afraid to let anyone smaller than me walk him though. He is crazy strong. I think I need to teach the command "leave it". My wife made a very good point: that is that the dog is being punished for simply expressing his genetic true self. That's what makes it hard. It is a very good argument that high prey dogs should live in an environment where they can hunt if they want to. Unfortunately I won't be buying an estate in the Scottish highlands anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverhound Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) I understand wanting to stick with the martingale, because I did too, for Brees (she's batsh$& crazy prey driven). I gave up a few months after we got her, because we were going to GIG and I knew would help to keep something bad from happening. I ordered the freedom harness from 2hounds, and it worked wonders. We used it for about 6 months, until she got used to paying attention to me. I didn't use the front clip. I just don't like it. Brees was uncomfortable in the harness for the first couple weeks. It may be the way I had it adjusted, but there was a little chafing. After a couple weeks, that went away, and her only annoyance was not being able to do what she wanted to do. As I said above, I was able to switch back to a martingale fairly quickly. The harness saved my back and her neck. I know you're a strong guy, but why should you have to overpower your dog with brawn when you can do it with brains? The harness is also good if a smaller person has to walk he dog, or if you get injured. I looked at it as a training tool, but a more consistent one than I am able to be. Link below. I wish you luck with whatever method you decide to use. http://www.2houndsdesign.com/Freedom-No-Pull-Harness/ This is the thread where I asked WTH to do about her: http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/284298-i-think-i-need-a-crutch-for-gig/?fromsearch=1 Edited July 27, 2016 by Riverhound Quote Masterful Joe and Naughty N Nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterWallerson Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 When I first brought Ernie home, he wore martingales and he used to yank my arm off. It wasn't fun, I began to resent him, dislike walks etc. Please don't get to that point, sure you can manhandle him now but God forbid you hurt yourself or strain something - you can't keep this up. You said you don't want to manhandle your new guy, so don't. Get a no pull harness, I borrowed one initially but I won't bother with anything else for Ernie. Ernie isn't food motivated so I redirect him using the harness and we've made a lot of progress. It also really helped this summer, we were outside when neighbors set off fireworks. The harness kept him from bolting and it also kept him safe because if he had been in a martingale he probably would have injured his neck. I highly recommend getting a harness. You don't have to use it forever, but at least for the short term you have a solution that doesn't hurt you (emotionally) or your new guy (physically). Quote Walter (Windy Walker) and Ernie (PG Ernest) @WalterWallerson and IG: WalterandErnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandiandwe Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Use the tools available. The a Freedom harness is fantastic. As for the rest, you need to figure out redirection. Paige is also not food motivated, but has been trained to redirect onto treats rather than going insane. It can be done but it takes time and is not a finite project. It's something you'll need to work at. I wonder if you have a lure coursing club near you? It might be a safe way of allowing him an outlet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XTRAWLD Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I've taught Ryder to carefully stalk bunnies while on leash with me. Kinda fun to see how close we get. Nearly sniffing tail is our record. He used to wear a harness more often so I would be able to keep a better grip. If I can hold him back and he weighs nearly more than me! I'm certain you can get to a control point. Because I was able to do this, he never darts after them anymore as he knows he can get closer and his excitement builds if we go slow and not fast. We see bunnies on nearly each walk so the fact it happens regularly is a key factor. Easier to train that way. Quote Proudly owned by:10 year old "Ryder" CR Redman Gotcha May 201012.5 year old Angel "Kasey" Goodbye Kasey Gotcha July 2005-Aug 1, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KickReturn Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 Excellent information - thanks all. Archer is starting to get my vibe. I still can't get his eyes off the rabbits but he is not straining toward them as much. He pulls moderately at the beginning of walks regardless of wildlife but settles after about 20 minutes. I got him into an enclosed field today and he chased a ball pretty hard. He definitely needs an outlet. I actually have what I think is called a Velvet Harness but the design is identical to the no-pull, multiple clip locations. If we don't continue to improve the harness will come out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest braun Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 That sounds exactly like our hound. Very high prey drive! First 10-20minutes of walks are brutal and after that it gets easier. Already after 5 days with him he has gotten "less" rowdy when seeing smaller dogs and cats. Not perfect but improvement is always welcomed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KickReturn Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) A bit of a setback tonight. While he had seen deer before, he hadn't seen them run. Tonight a young deer startled and ran. Wow. I had to choke him with the martingale to get him to stop thrashing. Got home and adjusted the harness to fit him. I will use the leash and martingale also. We'll see how that goes. Now if I were a deer hunter, I wouldn't need a gun. Just a couple of these dogs... Edited July 29, 2016 by KickReturn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverhound Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 A bit of a setback tonight. While he had seen deer before, he hadn't seen them run. Tonight a young deer startled and ran. Wow. I had to choke him with the martingale to get him to stop thrashing. Got home and adjusted the harness to fit him. I will use the leash and martingale also. We'll see how that goes. Now if I were a deer hunter, I wouldn't need a gun. Just a couple of these dogs... Yup. When the zombie apocalypse comes, Brees will keep us fed. The different temperaments are amazing, aren't they? Joe likes to chase critters, but Brees LIVES for it. I think Joe could be taught to ignore cats; he's distractable. Brees, never. If it's furry and it runs, it's food. She has figured out that small dogs aren't munchies, and I'm good with just that. I hope the harness/martingale combo makes things easier for you and more clear to Archer. Brees has learned that watching the food-creature is fine, chasing it is not. We do the stalking thing someone mentioned above. I don't feel there is a way to get dogs with this kind of drive to ignore critters completely, so I don't try. As long as my shoulder stays it its socket, we're ok! He's just gorgeous, BTW. I bet Hester is laughing his rear end off over all of this. Quote Masterful Joe and Naughty N Nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KickReturn Posted July 30, 2016 Author Share Posted July 30, 2016 Hester had a deal with the rabbits. He would protect them from owls, cougars, and other dogs in exchange for them providing him with a steady supply of their delicious feces. The new guy, a different deal. He can't be bought off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KickReturn Posted August 12, 2016 Author Share Posted August 12, 2016 Went with a harness. Safer, less pulling in general but when he sees deer he still goes berserk. massive repeated leaps in the air, yelping, spinning, the full show. Stuffed a piece of grilled steak in his mouth, he just let it fall out. We're hoping for mellowing with maturity. He's not even two. We should be OK in about 10 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.