How To Identify A Dangerous Trainer?

[Samwise]

The SO and I have decided to sign up for some obedience/training courses with Sam. He sometimes seems listless and, quite frankly, bored, and we're thinking that it might help to train together, and potentially look at agility down the line. Not to mention that it would be a greyt chance to bond!

 

I've read "The Other End of the Leash" and "Bones Would Rain From The Sky," and am quite concerned about finding a trainer that is willing to adapt their training techniques to greyhound needs, and avoiding anyone who might do damage to my relationship with Sam in the long run.

 

Does anyone have advice about identifying whether or not a trainer has the right (i.e., safe) mindset? Are there any warning signs I should be concerned about? This is someone I'm going to trust, and I don't want that trust to be misplaced.

 

I'm in Montreal, and would LOVE suggestions for trainers in the area, if anyone has them.

[Guest k9soul]

I can't speak for who may be in your area, but I think it's important to meet with a trainer and see if things "click" before deciding on them. You definitely want a trainer that uses positive reinforcement methods and not correctional. I think both the dog and the people need to feel comfortable with the trainer in order for the best experience possible. Hopefully someone will be able to give you more specific recommendations!

[PatricksMom]

A real quick phone screening question is to ask about collars. What do they permit/require?

[krissy]

I don't believe much in "greyhound savvy" trainers. I mean, if they are that's great. But I don't think it is the be-all and the end-all. All of the trainers I have worked with had relatively limited experience with sighthounds and I have loved them all. I don't care if they don't know much about greyhounds, just so long as they are positive reinforcement based trainers with no heavy handed techniques, no dominance theory and are flexible enough to work with me when I might have a concern. But I basically expect exactly the same from my dogs as any other dog in the classes. We do all the exercises the other dogs do. My dogs like to work and they like repetition though, which is a little different from some. But that's not entirely a greyhound thing, lots of other dogs are like that too. So long as the trainer has patience in working with sensitive, lower drive (work drive) dogs that should be fine.

 

I would recommend sitting in on a class without your dog so you can see how the trainer interacts with clients and other dogs.

[juliemac]

Trust your judgment ... you're aware of what works for you and Sam, and as you continue with "homework", you'll know what Sam's responding to and what might require alternate techniques. If a trainer can't work with you on those details (and most do, since not everything is a good fit for every hound or family), then find another one.

[Brandiandwe]

I also found it helpful to watch how my dogs reacted to them. Some trainers 'got' the greys, others didn't understand and weren't reading very clear body language from the pooches. That made it so much easier!

[Guest rarmstrong]

Top things I looked for was positive reinforcement and flexibility. In order to be great at positive reinforcement, you have to be open and flexible. You'd be surprised what seemingly small changes can really change the MO to learn. Wasn't open to anything utilizing choke/prong collars or dominance theory. More than enough evidence (across humans, dogs, basically any living breathing thing) that positive reinforcement works over punishment.

 

I wasn't too stuck on finding a greyhound specific obedience class. I was more so focused on if the school and instructors had some understanding to some of the peculiarities of greys, and weren't pushy about forcing something. My instructor always says that teach behaviors you are comfortable with, in the setting you see yourself utilizing them and if it will be functional for you and your dog. I really appreciate that. As someone who works with operant conditioning, it can be tempting to want to teach everything because it's such an amazing, effective tool. But, you can lose sight of functionality and begin to force something that in the grand scheme of things is not functional or relevant to your needs.

Edited March 19, 2014 by rarmstrong

[MaryJane]

I had an experience with a trainer that told me to take my greyhound off-leash in a class without having at least two barriers to the outside world and both barriers in place. This happened in a class that I was in with my youngest greyhound - I stood firm and told them that my greyhound was not going off-leash until both doors were shut to the outside world. She told me that it wasn't necessary as my dog would go right to me when I called ... Ha ha ha -- my dog went right by me and right to the 2nd door and at that time a shipment was coming in thru the 1st door and it was propped open --- weird coincidence. If the 2nd door had not been shut - my dog would have gone right out that 1st door. Sometimes trainers only think they know it all.

 

It's amazing how many times I have seen a trainer tell a student to do something with a dog and ... the student just goes along with it - so .. my advice is to question why and just don't fall in with the trainer's methods until you think them through and think about whether they work with greyhounds. Above all, think ... will my greyhound be safe.

 

Be aware of the other dogs and students in class - can the owners control their dogs and do they want to or feel it is necessary. In one of my classes, a gentleman had a lab that was too much for him to handle and the dog knew it, it disrupted the class for most of the students. In my case, I used it to my advantage to make sure that my dog would ignore the lab and trust me.

 

While others may feel it is never correct to use prong collars, they serve their purpose on aggressive dogs - if you have Pit Bulls, German Shepherds, or Rotweillers in the same class as your greyhound -- you might start to feel differently about prong collars. A charging dog wearing a prong collar can be stopped much easier than a dog just wearing a choke chain.

 

You might also want to be aware if there are intact females or males in the class as they could create more issues with training.

[greysmom]

I second asking to sit in on a class before committing. You can learn a lot by seeing how the trainer interacts with both dogs and their owners. I also signed up for an hour one-on-one training with the trainer I was considering, just to see how she handled herself and my dog. Bottom line, if you don't feel good about the person, then find another one.

 

Remember too, that anybody can call themselves a "dog trainer." They should be willing to talk with you about their background and their philosophies on training.

[macoduck]

"He sometimes seems listless and, quite frankly, bored,..."

 

This did make me chuckle. Quite the opposite of the many separation anxiety hound posts from new owners.

[3greytjoys]

Excellent question.

 

Here is what the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior suggests about selecting a dog trainer:

http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/How_to_Choose_a_Trainer_%28AVSAB%29.pdf

 

I agree about adhering to the special needs of Greyhound safety in a fully enclosed space; otherwise the dog should not be allowed off his/her human controlled leash. Also, Greyhounds should not be tethered to an object because they can approach racing speed within 3 strides; a tethered Greyhound can choke to death and/or break his/her neck from the extreme force.

[Samwise]

"He sometimes seems listless and, quite frankly, bored,..."

 

This did make me chuckle. Quite the opposite of the many separation anxiety hound posts from new owners.

 

He lacks almost all the issues we were told to keep an eye out for! The only small ones are a little space aggression when he's on his bed, and some sensitivity to having arms/people over him when he's lying down.

 

We lucked out with him!

[cleptogrey]

I don't believe much in "greyhound savvy" trainers. I mean, if they are that's great. But I don't think it is the be-all and the end-all. All of the trainers I have worked with had relatively limited experience with sighthounds and I have loved them all. I don't care if they don't know much about greyhounds, just so long as they are positive reinforcement based trainers with no heavy handed techniques, no dominance theory and are flexible enough to work with me when I might have a concern. But I basically expect exactly the same from my dogs as any other dog in the classes. We do all the exercises the other dogs do. My dogs like to work and they like repetition though, which is a little different from some. But that's not entirely a greyhound thing, lots of other dogs are like that too. So long as the trainer has patience in working with sensitive, lower drive (work drive) dogs that should be fine.

 

I would recommend sitting in on a class without your dog so you can see how the trainer interacts with clients and other dogs.

ditto, non of the trainers that i have used had past greyhound experience. but they caught on quickly. little things like having a non-skid bath mat(their idea) to make the dog more comfortable during a sit or down help. the blog for neversaynever - greyhounds is excellent. lots of good tips on little things like doing a tunnel under a leg while sitting are there. greyhounds do get bored instantly, so don't get frustrated.

 

oh, NEVER feed before training or classes. greys use up too much energy digesting food and they conk out in class!

Edited March 19, 2014 by cleptogrey

[MaryJane]

ditto, non of the trainers that i have used had past greyhound experience. but they caught on quickly. little things like having a non-skid bath mat(their idea) to make the dog more comfortable during a sit or down help. the blog for neversaynever - greyhounds is excellent. lots of good tips on little things like doing a tunnel under a leg while sitting are there. greyhounds do get bored instantly, so don't get frustrated.

 

oh, NEVER feed before training or classes. greys use up too much energy digesting food and they conk out in class!

 

 

Good point about bringing a mat with you. My dog would not lay down until he had his mat. Drove the trainer crazy that he wouldn't lie down for her on the bare floor ......

 

Good point about greys getting bored quickly - my boy would pretty much start ignoring everything about 1/2 way through the class.

[philospher77]

This is an article on how to find a trainer, that I often refer people to. It's got a lot of good insights. I will admit that I go to a training facility that the writer is affiliated with, and that the recommendations are pretty much based on that facility (which doesn't make them wrong!) I heartily agree with "go watch a class" and talk to the trainer. This is someone that you are hopefully going to have a long term relationship with (I've been going to classes for 4 years now!), so you want one that you click with. I will admit that I have taken classes with Stephanie, and that, while she's a good trainer, I just don't "click" with her the way I do with "my" trainer. And there are people that are the exact opposite, they click with her and not with mine. That's ok... it's all about finding something that works for you. And I wouldn't worry too much about finding a "greyhound savvy" trainer. You want to find one that has the skills to work with a problem or issue, not a breed. There are shy reserved dogs in other breeds, there are boisterous outgoing greys. You want a trainer who can look at you and your dog and figure out ways to make things work for both of you.

 

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_9/features/Dog-Training-Professionals_20063-1.html

[philospher77]

Be aware of the other dogs and students in class - can the owners control their dogs and do they want to or feel it is necessary. In one of my classes, a gentleman had a lab that was too much for him to handle and the dog knew it, it disrupted the class for most of the students. In my case, I used it to my advantage to make sure that my dog would ignore the lab and trust me.

 

While others may feel it is never correct to use prong collars, they serve their purpose on aggressive dogs - if you have Pit Bulls, German Shepherds, or Rotweillers in the same class as your greyhound -- you might start to feel differently about prong collars. A charging dog wearing a prong collar can be stopped much easier than a dog just wearing a choke chain.

 

I would seriously think about finding a new trainer. I have been in classes with reactive dogs, and with dogs with other issues, and have never worried about dogs charging or disrupting the class. It takes some work on setting up the training area appropriately, but it can and should be done, since part of the training for those kinds of dogs is learning to be around other dogs and people without being out of control. My last class with my little Pixie-pup (a 9.5 rat terrier, that I often refer to as "snack sized") there was both a dog-aggressive pit bull and a human-aggressive pit. I was never once concerned about either my or Pixie's safety during that class. And that was without prong collars on either dog. It took carefully use of barriers and assistants, and of course not letting OUR dogs go invade their space, but by the end of class they were working outside the barriers for short times without incidents. So it can be done.

[GeorgeofNE]

You don't need a trainer.

 

It's not rocket science.

 

I trained my first dog when I was 10. Pick techniques that you like, and use them. Be consistent, keep sessions short, and you can do it yourself. ANYONE can call themself a dog trainer.

[Feisty49]

If you're more comfortable using the services of a dog trainer, by all means do so. A person has to do what works for them, not what others think should work for you. I hired trainers for a couple of reasons (see below) and am glad I did.

 

IMO, you're over thinking who you should use/hire, but then I've had good luck with both trainers I used (#1 was hired six weeks after adopting Annie and used just for a couple of ideas in changing behavior, and #2 was hired a year after adoption with the idea of Annie becoming a pet therapy dog). Both trainers were highly recommended by other dog people. Neither had extra ordinary knowledge about Greyhounds, but they were both dog people who were aware that not all dogs, just like people, respond to the same way of being taught and learning.

 

I haven't read the references in your post so am writing this with ignorance with that regard, but I can't imagine why training a Greyhound is different from any other dog. If kind, positive, consistent reinforcement is used for, say, a Lab, why would training be different for a sight hound? Annie and I did six weeks of pre-pet theraphy training just to see how she'd do to responding to me in a controlled situation. Annie learned to do everything the other dogs did (some she already knew) in the same way as other dogs with no problem, other than sit. My girl will not sit and while the trainer gave me several good suggestions, in the end it was up to me not to pursue the task because obviously Annie was very unhappy with the attempts and the trainer had no problem with it, but then why should she... she worked for me.

 

In the end, your common sense and instincts will tell you whether a trainer is someone with whom you can work and who can work with your dog. Good luck!!

Edited March 20, 2014 by Feisty49

[Samwise]

You don't need a trainer.

 

It's not rocket science.

 

I trained my first dog when I was 10. Pick techniques that you like, and use them. Be consistent, keep sessions short, and you can do it yourself. ANYONE can call themself a dog trainer.

 

I've had dog since I was six. I was involved with training each & every one.

 

Please don't assume you know my situation: there are details I have not included here about why I want to work with a trainer and yes, I feel like I need one.

 

I appreciate your confidence in my dog training abilities, though!

[Guest rarmstrong]

I've had dog since I was six. I was involved with training each & every one.

 

Please don't assume you know my situation: there are details I have not included here about why I want to work with a trainer and yes, I feel like I need one.

 

I appreciate your confidence in my dog training abilities, though!

Positive reinforcement (or various forms of operant conditioning) seems really easy, but it's really easy to do it wrong! I can't tell you (I don't train dogs, but I work with kids who have autism utilizing similar principles. I sought help because despite understanding the science I know nothing about dogs and didn't want to establish any funky contingencies) how many parents believe they are doing it right but it's wrong. So very wrong and I spend most of my session undoing what was done during the week. Luckily, we are there to support the families and the children live to the best of their abilities.

 

Not suggesting anyone here is doing it wrong, just speaking from my professional experience with the clients I serve.

 

Never hurts to ask for help when you think you need it. Much easier to start things out the right way than to fix funky behavior chains and start back at zero.

Edited March 20, 2014 by rarmstrong

[Guest k9soul]

Sometimes training is more about a structured setting and even socialization than about the actual exercises. Really anyone can teach a dog basic commands at home, but classes and a trainer can sometimes offer things you can't really get in a home setting or out in your own yard.

Edited March 20, 2014 by k9soul

[KickReturn]

Sounds like you dog is pretty great. Maybe he doesn't need any training. Done right raining is good but if he is bored show him something. Not inside but outside. I am a big fan of going on adventures with my Grey. They learn to love the changing scenery and become very inquisitive. The stimulation of all that they see and everyone they meet/sniff and the exercise combine to give a very content animal. Also the best way to bond I can think of.

 

Also IIRC you have only had this fellow since January. A blink of an eye. He may be a bit depressed and subdued as a result. A year from now you may have a very different dog. You may end up with that snuggler you crave. I am at two and half years and the bond is still growing.

 

Space aggression - please don't discourage him when growls at you. It's a good thing. Just move away. Even though he no longer objects to it, I still do not stand over my Grey out of respect.

Edited March 21, 2014 by KickReturn

[Guest jetska]

Sometimes training is more about a structured setting and even socialization than about the actual exercises. Really anyone can teach a dog basic commands at home, but classes and a trainer can sometimes offer things you can't really get in a home setting or out in your own yard.

 

Totally the reason why I go to training classes. For me a trainer that listens to me, answers my questions, and doesn't bang on about dominance theory is a good start. For me though the venue the training was in was just as important as it needed to be fully enclosed and on private property. A lot of trainers here work like human Personal Trainers and just set up in local parks!

[Samwise]

Sounds like you dog is pretty great. Maybe he doesn't need any training. Done right raining is good but if he is bored show him something. Not inside but outside. I am a big fan of going on adventures with my Grey. They learn to love the changing scenery and become very inquisitive. The stimulation of all that they see and everyone they meet/sniff and the exercise combine to give a very content animal. Also the best way to bond I can think of.

 

Also IIRC you have only had this fellow since January. A blink of an eye. He may be a bit depressed and subdued as a result. A year from now you may have a very different dog. You may end up with that snuggler you crave. I am at two and half years and the bond is still growing.

 

Space aggression - please don't discourage him when growls at you. It's a good thing. Just move away. Even though he no longer objects to it, I still do not stand over my Grey out of respect.

 

Whee, prepare to hear my monologue on dog obedience & training!

 

As so many behaviourists have pointed out, humans and dogs don't always speak the same language, despite thousands of years of co-evolution. Our instincts remain primarily primate, while theirs are canid. The result if that certain actions, including (but not limited to) a hug from the human or a play growl from the dog, can be misunderstood, and lead to deep cracks in the dog/human relationship. How many people made their dogs think that they were threatening by trying to hug them? How many dogs have been labelled "aggressive" because of growls, play or warning, that have been misinterpreted? The best dog trainers & behaviourists can help you to translate your dog's canine expressions, and can teach you behave using body language and verbal tone that your dog truly understands. This is the ideal, however-- most trainers aren't good enough to do this, so you can't always count on a trainer to help in this respect. Many people have to rely on books written by people who DO get it to further their knowledge. For example, my relationship with Sam has much improved now that I can better read his signs of anxiety-- I was forced to learn to read them after a nip to the face on his second day home. I've learnt that a growl isn't anger or dislike, but is a "no, seriously, stop doing that please" which follows other signs of discomfort. And no, I do not correct him for it.

 

Where trainers can help, however, is on a second level of communication. We may never be able to understand a dog's body language in the same way as a behaviourist who intuitively "gets it," but for most people, you don't even have to. What matters is that in those moments when your dog needs something from you, or you need something from your dog, you are able to communicate those needs and wants in a shared language you both understand. Getting on and off furniture, crossing streets, greeting other dogs, having "doggie manners" in public-- these are all moments when the human needs and wants something from the dog. Food, water, a walk, going outside-- these are moments when a dog wants something from a human. The VAST majority of dogs are "good dogs" who want to do what their human asks, but don't understand their requests. And most humans want to do right by their dogs, and address their needs and appropriate wants. Behavioural problems come when there is a break in this understanding. The human gets frustrated with a dog who won't do what they tell them to, while the dog becomes frustrated because they can't understand what the human wants, other than the fact that they're not doing it. The happiest and healthiest relationships between dogs and humans are ones where there exists a shared language of cues to communicate needs and wants, where both human and dog know how to ask for what they need, and how to interpret the other's cues and respond.

 

This isn't an intuitive language. A dog doesn't automatically know what "sit" means any more than a baby comes out of the womb knowing the word "kumquat"-- hell, I don't even know what exactly a kumquat is (for a really good example, take a look at Suzanne Clothier's game "Fruits and Veggies," described here). This language is taught, established, developed, and reinforced over time, and it takes work & dedication to build. I'm not confident that I could do that entirely on my own, and I'm not sure that many dog owners could, either. Even if I could build it on my own, I would probably run into trouble and make mistakes that others have made before. Why repeat their mistakes? What's the harm in trying to find someone with the same philosophy as me, who has tried, failed, tried again, failed again, failed better, and ultimately improved on all the things I would have tried anyway? Why not let their errors show me and my dog a clearer path?

 

For me, dog training & obedience isn't about correcting behaviours, though I understand that it may be for people whose dogs have issues other than mine (and there is no shame in that). It's about doing what is right for my dog and setting him up to win by making sure that we build our relationship on a foundation of mutual understanding. It is about making it easier for both of us to do what we want to do anyway-- help each other, and make each other happy.

 

And there you have it. Sorry for the novel of a post, but this is one topic I feel very strongly about! Unfortunately, it also brings out the philosopher in me

[GreytTerp]

Since you mentioned agility, I just wanted to add that we have had (what we think anyway) good success with basic agility (just learning the equipment at lower settings and starting to add things together) in combination with obedience training. We've done a mix of 3 agility classes to 1 obedience class. It's all about positive reinforcement, and our hound responded almost immediately. Marvin now has a lot more confidence in himself and in us, as well as a major increase in his focus around distractions (other people, dogs, treats, new spaces, etc.). Just our two cents, but we have found obedience training to be a lot more effective when we mixed it in with some basic agility. (By basic agility - I mean introduction to things like the a-frame, dog walk, jump, weave, tire, tunnel, etc. incrementally. Marvin has done it all wearing a belly band...since he decided on his first visit to mark everything in the training gym...). Good luck!