Serious Bite

[Guest k9soul]

Rudy is super, super affectionate when up and about. To the point of being a pest at times wanting attention and petting. But there's just a switch in his head once he lies down. It's all the more startling for people because he seems to want to be touched and stroked for as long as anyone is willing to do it, then he lies down sometimes right at a person's feet yet if they drop a hand to pet him then, he either tenses up, jumps back up to his feet where he feels more comfortable with being touched, or even a growl/bark/air snap.

[Batmom]

I don't think the owner did anything WRONG, exactly. It appears (we weren't there, remember) that the owner UNKNOWINGLY moved in such a way as to make the dog feel trapped and threatened. So then the dog snapped. Yeah, yeah, you can do something wrong out of not knowing ... but I think it helps to think not in terms of wrong and right but more in terms of what's comfortable for everybody.

 

In that same situation, some dogs might growl audibly or bark, some might just hunker down and hope it's over soon, some might leap up and try to flee even if it seems they're trapped, and some might snap.

 

I often council people to let sleeping (and lying down) dogs lie, and not to bend over the front of a dog who is on his/her feet ... but people do those things all the time and not all that many get bitten.

 

Dogs have sharp teeth and, like people, can get startled and/or panicked at moments we don't expect.

 

Over the years I'm not sure I've met a dog who wouldn't bite under the right (nonabusive) conditions. Maybe Gidget . But no matter how gentle and tolerant the dog is, it's useful to remember those big sharp teeth.

[Acadianarose]

Rudy is super, super affectionate when up and about. To the point of being a pest at times wanting attention and petting. But there's just a switch in his head once he lies down. It's all the more startling for people because he seems to want to be touched and stroked for as long as anyone is willing to do it, then he lies down sometimes right at a person's feet yet if they drop a hand to pet him then, he either tenses up, jumps back up to his feet where he feels more comfortable with being touched, or even a growl/bark/air snap.

Payton issue is definitely relating to lying down, too. He just can't handle being touched when he is lying down. Luckily, he only lies on his bed. He doesn't even try to get in the furniture.

 

He will also look away and yawn when he is stressed.

[Acadianarose]

I don't think the owner did anything WRONG, exactly. It appears (we weren't there, remember) that the owner UNKNOWINGLY moved in such a way as to make the dog feel trapped and threatened. So then the dog snapped. Yeah, yeah, you can do something wrong out of not knowing ... but I think it helps to think not in terms of wrong and right but more in terms of what's comfortable for everybody.

 

In that same situation, some dogs might growl audibly or bark, some might just hunker down and hope it's over soon, some might leap up and try to flee even if it seems they're trapped, and some might snap.

 

I often council people to let sleeping (and lying down) dogs lie, and not to bend over the front of a dog who is on his/her feet ... but people do those things all the time and not all that many get bitten.

 

Dogs have sharp teeth and, like people, can get startled and/or panicked at moments we don't expect.

 

Over the years I'm not sure I've met a dog who wouldn't bite under the right (nonabusive) conditions. Maybe Gidget . But no matter how gentle and tolerant the dog is, it's useful to remember those big sharp teeth.

Thanks for your explanation. So do you think it was a case of space aggression? Do you think being on the sofa made it worse?

 

Btw-by wrong, I meant what caused the bite, not really meaning wrong. Lol!

[Batmom]

Hard to say whether being on the couch made it worse. Really sounds more like the dog's personal space was infringed rather than defending his sofa. Owner probably has a better idea about that, tho.

 

I do think that dogs who are touchy about space, even if their "space bubble" is very small, are best on their own beds rather than on the people beds/sofas. Makes things easier for everybody.

 

 

 

ETA: I thought that was probably what you meant. Just didn't want owner, who seems very conscientious and interested in figuring things out, to feel any worse than he already does.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Batmom

[jetcitywoman]

I don't think the owner did anything WRONG, exactly. It appears (we weren't there, remember) that the owner UNKNOWINGLY moved in such a way as to make the dog feel trapped and threatened. So then the dog snapped. Yeah, yeah, you can do something wrong out of not knowing ... but I think it helps to think not in terms of wrong and right but more in terms of what's comfortable for everybody.

 

In that same situation, some dogs might growl audibly or bark, some might just hunker down and hope it's over soon, some might leap up and try to flee even if it seems they're trapped, and some might snap.

 

I agree, and I think some dogs go through the entire range of warning signals extremely quickly, which is why many humans miss them. I'm thinking as an example the video of the rescued bull dog (or pittie mix, whatever it was) that bit the tv newscaster in the face a couple years ago. Someone posted on Youtube a nice editted breakdown of that video that showed his warning signals, and it all happened in the span of a couple seconds.

 

Here's the video for the OP:

 

I also have a couch story, but only about miscommunication and warnings without escalating into a bite (luckily). As I've mentioned here before, Capri had sleep startle when we first got her so we didn't let her on the couch for a long time and gave her privacy in her bed. After we started letting her on the couch, it took a few more months to teach her that it was different from her bed: the couch is a privilege for her, it belongs to the humans, not her. So if she's bad, off the couch she comes. We don't do it in anger, we just do it factually like "oh this happened, so now that has to happen too".

 

Anyway, in the middle of that process, once I was sitting on the edge of the couch talking to DH who was in the kitchen. Capri was either feeling snuggly or wanted to push me off the couch (who knows - ha!) so she got up and tucked herself in behind me. It was fine until I got up when she growled and air-snapped at me. I immediately took her off the couch. We both immediately understood what happened: When I got up, I unthinkingly leaned back a little bit and then rose, which made her think I was about to squash her. Nice chain reaction there, huh? I accidentally scared her, she defended herself, I revoked the couch privilege (and she apologized, which is another story), and we learned a little more about each other. My point is that it can be the tiniest movements that you aren't even aware of that can scare a dog who doesn't quite trust you.

Edited December 28, 2013 by jetcitywoman

[cleptogrey]

i had a similar experience w/ our beloved welsh terrier. at 11 years of age he snapped while on the couch, i was next to him our standard position for a decade+. the first thing i did was visit my vet. he checked him over thoroughly- full physical, manipulated all joints and examined his spine. well, he had over the years developed stenosis and he was just in the right position and when moved in pain. we deal w. that issue. i also spoke to my trust trainer, willie had already gone back to classes when he became fearful as he attacked by a neighbor's dogs when he was 9. we discussed the situation, on her recommendation(which was my own thought as well) no more couch. medicated his pain as needed and the situation was fixed. a bite is a horrible experience, i hope all works out well for you and your family. fast healing and i hope you have supportive help as i did.

Edited December 28, 2013 by cleptogrey

[Guest k9soul]

I remember that dog bite of the anchorwoman. I felt awful, so awful for her, and yet at the same time so frustrated with how people labeled the dog as vicious, biting out of the blue, etc. People would try to point out the things the woman was doing to make the dog feel threatened, and others would say those people were victim-blaming. It is all a matter of education, and if more people could learn the signs of stress in a dog, as well as the actions that may produce stress, everyone would be better for it, both dogs and humans. The Other End of the Leash is such an excellent and easily readable book that explains these things. It really made things clear for me and I am able to read subtle signs so much more clearly than in the past.

[Guest grey_dreams]

In that video, the way they are petting/restraining the dog is adding enormously to the tension. The handler has a kind of vice grip on the ear and neck, and is doing really short, fast, hard strokes. The woman has a kind of vice grip on the jaw and is also doing short hard fast strokes. All of this is absolutely the right way to get a dog riled up!

 

I see this kind of behavior at the vets office too. When an owner is trying to calm their dog, and doing really short fast strokes, over and over and over (which is actually a reflection of the person's nervousness). It achieves the exact opposite effect for the animal - it adds to the tension.

 

To calm, you should do very slow, soft, circular movements along the flanks.

[Guest k9soul]

In that video, the way they are petting/restraining the dog is adding enormously to the tension. The handler has a kind of vice grip on the ear and neck, and is doing really short, fast, hard strokes. The woman has a kind of vice grip on the jaw and is also doing short hard fast strokes. All of this is absolutely the right way to get a dog riled up!

 

 

Definitely agree. The dog was being held so tightly he had absolutely no way to retreat and get more space. I certainly would be very alarmed to be restrained so tightly with a stranger touching me and getting right in my face. He had just been saved from a partially frozen lake or river the day before where the ice broke and he could not get out (which is why he was on the news show). I'm sure he may have been sore or still tired and strained from that, too.

Edited December 28, 2013 by k9soul

[Hubcitypam]

It escapes me why people feel the need to kiss dogs on the face. I am far from an expert but I'm not sure the dog really sees it as a sign of affection - more like a big head coming straight at them. Some put up with it and some don't.

[Guest grey_dreams]

It escapes me why people feel the need to kiss dogs on the face. I am far from an expert but I'm not sure the dog really sees it as a sign of affection - more like a big head coming straight at them. Some put up with it and some don't.

 

That's the primate behavior in humans. And no, in the canine world, kissing the face is absolutely not a sign of affection. The only thing that comes close is when another dog (especially a puppy or juvenile) leans up from the side to lick an adult dog on the lips - that is usually on the back of the lips near the lower jaw, along the side of the face. If the same dog leaned in head-on with continual eye contact, it would be an aggressive posture.

 

Most dogs quickly learn about our (primate) behavior, and realize that even though it is bizarre in canine understanding, we don't mean any harm. Most dogs do learn to accept the range of behaviors like hugging (with arms locked over their backs, another "aggressive posture"), clutching, leaning in to their face, and kissing them on the face. Some dogs never get comfortable with this, but do a very good job of continuously sending signals of their discomfort/fear but not escalating. A very few dogs never get comfortable with it and never learn to accept it.

[silverfish]

I am very sorry this happened. I know it must be very upsetting for you and your family.

 

I am always shocked to read a post like this, where an owner is seriously bitten by their dog for seemingly no reason. My dog, Payton, has space aggression. If he is lying down prone, he does not feel comfortable being touched. So we don't touch him. But while he is not overly affectionate, he does not mind brief kisses on the head and will routinely walk up to me and press the top of his head into my chest or stomach for a few moments.

 

I can never tell from reading the original post exactly what the owner did wrong. Or than touching the dog while he was lying down? I mean, lots of greyhound owners hug or kiss their dog. And the OP said the dog was receptive to her attention. I don't know that your average owner is going to notice a change in breathing by the dog as an indication that the dog is uncomfortable.

 

ETA- Payton and Rudy have the same type of subtle signs of stress. We try to leave him alone before he gets to the point of being stressed.

 

The thing that someone is doing wrong will vary from dog to dog, and can vary with the same dog from one day to the next. When you have a nervous, anxious, or easily stressed dog, or when you have one with space or possession issues, what you need to be doing is reading their signals all the time when you are in their face. Doesn't matter how cuddly they are normally, you need to be reading them from moment to moment.

 

I think the thing that confuses many, many people is that there are some people who can read a dog without apparently taking any notice of them - they almost seem to read them by touch, by instinct, or by some kind of telepathy. These people are extremely tuned in to their animals. Others have to make a conscious effort to read their dogs.

 

So when you say 'an awful lot of people hug and kiss their dogs' it is really meaningless. Some people who hug and kiss their dogs will 'get away with it' simply because they know exactly what their dog will put up with, and when to stop pushing their buttons - and make no mistake; being kissed on the head is something dogs put up with, having learned that from certain people, it means affection, so I'm glad to read that you regard it as 'not minding'. These dogs can still have an off day. Those of us who kiss our dogs on the head still need to be vigilant and watch for those subtle signals that say 'not today, thank you'. The people who are most likely to get bitten for this are those who are not paying attention.

 

 

 

 

I don't think the owner did anything WRONG, exactly. It appears (we weren't there, remember) that the owner UNKNOWINGLY moved in such a way as to make the dog feel trapped and threatened. So then the dog snapped. Yeah, yeah, you can do something wrong out of not knowing ... but I think it helps to think not in terms of wrong and right but more in terms of what's comfortable for everybody.

 

In that same situation, some dogs might growl audibly or bark, some might just hunker down and hope it's over soon, some might leap up and try to flee even if it seems they're trapped, and some might snap.

 

I often council people to let sleeping (and lying down) dogs lie, and not to bend over the front of a dog who is on his/her feet ... but people do those things all the time and not all that many get bitten.

 

Dogs have sharp teeth and, like people, can get startled and/or panicked at moments we don't expect.

 

Over the years I'm not sure I've met a dog who wouldn't bite under the right (nonabusive) conditions. Maybe Gidget . But no matter how gentle and tolerant the dog is, it's useful to remember those big sharp teeth.

 

Exactly.

 

It escapes me why people feel the need to kiss dogs on the face. I am far from an expert but I'm not sure the dog really sees it as a sign of affection - more like a big head coming straight at them. Some put up with it and some don't.

 

Yep. Sid really doesn't mind it at all. Jeffie will accept it sometimes. I don't push Jeffie on anything much because he is a very easily stressed dog. I worked very hard with him when we first got him to make him understand that I would listen to him when he asked me to back off. Lots of praise for allowing me to trim nails, look in his mouth, deal with his wounds etc. I made sure to keep my affection brief and let go immediately he wiggled or squeaked. Now, I can hug him and he seems to enjoy it, batting me with his head when I let go. I can shift him over on his bed to allow Sid to pass (he will growl at Sid, but not at me). But I am vigilant. I am aware that he could still bite me some day, even though he is a really affectionate old thing, because it would only take too many stressors in one day and his spoons would run out, and that would be that. He is not in any way a vicious dog, but he has his limits, and one small thing like me trying do his teeth without paying due attention and I could feel those teeth! Well, the ones he has left, anyway!

[Acadianarose]

There is not a dog I trust 100%, but I spend so much time with my dogs that I learn when they are unhappy. It is almost an expression on their faces. We are still learning Payton's signs, so we try never to get to the point of pushing him too far.

 

 

I guess that is what surprises me so much when I hear of a bite like in this situation- they had the dog for over 2 years. When do you reach the point when you can trust (reasonably) that your dog is not going to bite you?

[a_daerr]

I guess that is what surprises me so much when I hear of a bite like in this situation- they had the dog for over 2 years. When do you reach the point when you can trust (reasonably) that your dog is not going to bite you?

That is the biggest thing that concerns me. If the OP said 'I've had this dog for two months,' then fine. I get it. There have been hundreds of similar threads on this board. But the fact that this dog is still displaying this kind of behavior TWO YEARS later, I'd be concerned that there is some underlying factor at play (bite inhibition, pain issues, or some type of fear that is continually being exacerbated and reinforced). I agree with Giselle that a consult with a behaviorist is in order. It's not as simple as, 'let sleeping dogs lie' unless the owner wants to forever walk on eggshells, live in fear, and feel the need to banish the dog from the rest of the household.

Edited December 28, 2013 by a_daerr

[silverfish]

There is not a dog I trust 100%, but I spend so much time with my dogs that I learn when they are unhappy. It is almost an expression on their faces. We are still learning Payton's signs, so we try never to get to the point of pushing him too far.

 

 

I guess that is what surprises me so much when I hear of a bite like in this situation- they had the dog for over 2 years. When do you reach the point when you can trust (reasonably) that your dog is not going to bite you?

 

I think it's as others have said, there are two possible reasons for this. One is that the dog has been really trying, for a long time, to get his message across and people have been misunderstanding him and continuing to push him further than he is comfortable with - unintentionally, for sure, but it's been happening. Eventually, for some reason, this was the day he 'ran out of spoons'. If you don't know the spoon theory, read this.

 

The other possibility is that he has a new medical problem. Maybe a sore spot, maybe an upset tummy, maybe an aching tooth - doesn't matter. What does matter is that pain is an additional stressor and can make the nicest dog short-tempered, especially if someone looms over him and he thinks they're going to hurt his sore spot.

I do agree that a consultation with a behaviourist is in order, though. It would be a good idea to try to find one that knows greyhounds, if only because they typically display more subtle body language than many breeds.

[Batmom]

You can't trust a dog not to bite you. Not ever. Not even once.

 

You can trust a dog to probably not bite you in a given situation. That is all.

 

If something happens very seldom, then it can be hard for people to figure out what the signs and triggers were.

 

One of mine had pure sleep startle. Once or twice a year he would startle awake with a snarl and a huge snap. Once or twice a year. A person might think, "Hey, he's been here awhile, hasn't happened again, he's fine." That person would be wrong. He didn't get on the furniture, and I cuddled with him only very carefully, when I was 100% sure he was awake. Awake, he was entirely nonaggressive toward people and helped several folks who were terrified of big dogs to get over their fears.

[MaryJane]

You can't trust a dog not to bite you. Not ever. Not even once.

 

You can trust a dog to probably not bite you in a given situation. That is all.

 

If something happens very seldom, then it can be hard for people to figure out what the signs and triggers were.

 

One of mine had pure sleep startle. Once or twice a year he would startle awake with a snarl and a huge snap. Once or twice a year. A person might think, "Hey, he's been here awhile, hasn't happened again, he's fine." That person would be wrong. He didn't get on the furniture, and I cuddled with him only very carefully, when I was 100% sure he was awake. Awake, he was entirely nonaggressive toward people and helped several folks who were terrified of big dogs to get over their fears.

 

 

Well stated and I agree totally. A dog is a dog and ... dogs bite.

 

I'm not sure if it is better to have a dog that has never bitten and then you get complacent that it will not bite or a dog that has bitten and therefore, you never get complacent (or you shouldn't). Best policy is to always be on guard for your face - don't kiss the dog on the head, don't grab them and hug them, and don't startle them when they are sleeping or in "their spot".

[JJNg]

However, over time, he has been more affectionate and there have been many times that he has enjoyed hugs and kisses, both on and off the couch.

 

In addition to Giselle's questions, I'm also wondering what signs you're looking at to tell when he enjoys hugs and kisses. As others have mentioned, dogs don't naturally enjoy this type of close contact. Even the ones that seem fine with these interactions are often just tolerating it, and a closer look at their body language may show subtle signs of stress and discomfort. There are some dogs that actually learn to enjoy being hugged and kissed, but I'd say they're the exception.

 

You can't trust a dog not to bite you. Not ever. Not even once.

 

You can trust a dog to probably not bite you in a given situation. That is all.

 

I completely agree, and the additional factor that I'd want to emphasize is the effect of cumulative stress - nicely explained in the 'spoons' article shared by silverfish. It is easy to forget to consider the effect that unrelated stressors can have on an individual's immediate behavior. For example, problems at home can make people less tolerant and more likely to lose their temper at work. Co-workers may have no idea why that person's temper is so short and just chalk it up to a bad mood.

 

The same thing happens to our dogs. Outside factors that cause stress - such as changes in routine, visitors to the home, especially all the holiday activity this time of year - tend to make dogs more reactive and less tolerant of things that they may be totally fine with (or at least tolerating well) at other times when everything is stable in their world. When these stress factors are not considered, it may seem like the dog's behavior is unpredictable.

 

Here's another good article about stress and dogs: Identifying and Coping with Canine Stress

[jetcitywoman]

There is not a dog I trust 100%, but I spend so much time with my dogs that I learn when they are unhappy. It is almost an expression on their faces. We are still learning Payton's signs, so we try never to get to the point of pushing him too far.

 

 

I guess that is what surprises me so much when I hear of a bite like in this situation- they had the dog for over 2 years. When do you reach the point when you can trust (reasonably) that your dog is not going to bite you?

 

I think it's what others have been saying: it's not a matter of how long it takes to trust, it's more a matter of learning to read your dog well. Because the best, most tolerant dog in the world can be a sweet cuddler for years and then gets injured or gets old and achey and may snap at you when you hug him because you've accidentally hurt him. Dogs also have moods like we do, and may simply not be in the mood to be petted. Ideally they will move away or growl before biting, and this is why the GT experts always tell you NOT to scold your dog for growling. You absolutely WANT that early warning.

 

In short, I think it's an equal combination of trust AND communication.

[cometdust1]

Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but to me, if the dog is no longer allowed on furniture or human beds, If he is given his own nice thick cushy bed on the floor in the same rooms his owners are in, and is NEVER petted when lying down again, there would be no more bite incidents. To get the dog in the habit of sleeping on his own bed, as soon as he tries to get on the couch, I would redirect him to his bed with a nice,yummy treat and block the area of furniture he wants to go to(turn up the cushions, put an emty box on it,etc., until he gets in the habit of going to his bed instead of the couch.In time, he will most likely stop trying to go on the furniture when he realizes that no one will ever bother him on his bed and he can fully relax. However, the owners must be 100% sure that they can abide by this if they want to keep him. If they truly need a cuddlebug, either a second, more tolerant, dog is needed or this one should be rehomed and a different dog adopted that is able to accept a more cuddly relationship. This boy will never be able to fit that need. Also, when children come over, especially young ones, I would muzzle him. I do this with mine, as he has air snapped at a child once before. Children make dogs like the OP's nervous, and even when awake and standing, they can end up snapping.

Edited December 29, 2013 by cometdust1

[jetcitywoman]

In short, I think it's an equal combination of trust AND communication.

 

Sorry to reply to myself, but I was thinking on this and want to elaborate some more. To clarify, I mean you have to have both two-way trust and two-way communication. The dog trusts that you won't purposely hurt him, you trust that he will be more tolerant if you make the occasional accidental mistake, but also you learn to read his body language and he learns to read yours. Dogs are already very good at reading our body language, it's people who are typically really bad at this, which is where the Patricia McConnel (and other) books come into play. The exercise of learning two-way communication builds trust, so they all really mesh together.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but to me, if the dog is no longer allowed on furniture or human beds, If he is given his own nice thick cushy bed on the floor in the same rooms his owners are in, and is NEVER petted when lying down again, there would be no more bite incidents. To get the dog in the habit of sleeping on his own bed, as soon as he tries to get on the couch, I would redirect him to his bed with a nice,yummy treat and block the area of furniture he wants to go to(turn up the cushions, put an emty box on it,etc., until he gets in the habit of going to his bed instead of the couch.In time, he will most likely stop trying to go on the furniture when he realizes that no one will ever bother him on his bed and he can fully relax. However, the owners must be 100% sure that they can abide by this if they want to keep him. If they truly need a cuddlebug, either a second, more tolerant, dog is needed or this one should be rehomed and a different dog adopted that is able to accept a more cuddly relationship. This boy will never be able to fit that need. Also, when children come over, especially young ones, I would muzzle him. I do this with mine, as he has air snapped at a child once before. Children make dogs like the OP's nervous, and even when awake and standing, they can end up snapping.

 

With respect, I do think you're oversimplifying. I also think you're treating the dog as an untrustworthy machine. By machine, I mean like it's programmed to do things on triggers, and ignoring the fact that they have moods and emotions and a certain level of rational thought. They can learn to communicate and trust, (and learn!) and you're treating the dog like he can't.

[Batmom]

I don't think cometdust's plan is unreasonable. Certainly a good way to proceed until human/dog behaviors in the household can be explored more. And really just saying, "Let sleeping dogs lie" and "Be careful around kids" -- both of which are good basic advice .

[JohnF]

I don't think cometdust's plan is unreasonable. Certainly a good way to proceed until human/dog behaviors in the household can be explored more. And really just saying, "Let sleeping dogs lie" and "Be careful around kids" -- both of which are good basic advice .

^

 

Our farm neighbours had a Border Collie that snapped and couldn't be touched by stangers but was brilliant with sheep. They just told everyone visiting that his name was 'Mr Mustn't Touch'. It worked very well... kids got it straight away.

 

The OP can certainly work with their dog to lessen the chances of a further injurious bite and, say they have an unrelable visitor coming... then they could put the dog in a crate or somewhere safe for the duration. They could also check on their insurance... all bases covered then.

[Guest WhiteWave]

That is the biggest thing that concerns me. If the OP said 'I've had this dog for two months,' then fine. I get it. There have been hundreds of similar threads on this board. But the fact that this dog is still displaying this kind of behavior TWO YEARS later, I'd be concerned that there is some underlying factor at play (bite inhibition, pain issues, or some type of fear that is continually being exacerbated and reinforced). I agree with Giselle that a consult with a behaviorist is in order. It's not as simple as, 'let sleeping dogs lie' unless the owner wants to forever walk on eggshells, live in fear, and feel the need to banish the dog from the rest of the household.

 

This is my issue too. I always feel bad for the owners when I hear/read stories like this one. I know the pain they must feel. It is horrible. I had one dog that was like this and he was a senior when I adopted him and I made it work because I had no children in the home and I had gotten attached to him, but I doubt I would ever do it again. I just don't have a lot of tolerance for dogs like that.

 

I can touch my dogs when they are sleeping, eating, playing, and even get in the middle when they are fighting with a reasonable trust that I will not get bitten. And the video posted above was a Dogo Argentino and I personally would have put that dog down. I understand he had a traumatic experience, but that is not a behavior I would ever accept in a Dogo under any circumstances. I had to break up a fight between 2 adult male Dogos hell bent on killing each other and I placed by hands, knee, legs, and entire body between them and I didn't even suffer a scratch. Took me over 30 minutes to get them apart, but never once did I fear them biting me. And I treated both of them for there pretty severe wounds by myself with no restraint or muzzle. I had to glue ones face back together as it was ripped and hanging off, including cutting his skin with scissors to even a jagged edge with my face literally resting against his face and never once did it cross my mind this dog would bite me and he didn't. If I can not trust my dog, then it is just not the dog for me. I am not walking on eggshells around my dog. I'm not going to ever have to use an object like a broom to poke at them to make sure they are fully awake before I go near them like I did with Linus to keep him from biting me. Just not my cup of tea at all. Too many good dogs dying out there to keep dogs with issues like that a live.