Another Luna Post...just Feeling Sad.

[Guest LunaTheGreyt]

And to cap it all off, a guy I was hoping to date pretty much just insinuated that I act like a single mother who doesn't get out because of my dog and that it's off-putting. I'm fairly certain people with dogs do date - we just have these things called responsibilities (feeding? walking? absurd!) that I guess other people in their mid-20s haven't heard of. Could this day get any better?

 

End rant. I'm in such a foul mood right now...

[MandysMom]

I second the earlier suggestion for a different medication. Clomicalm didn't help Mandy, but Amitriptyline did. Our vet called in the prescription to Costco, which was the cheapest place I could find. If Amitriptyline didn't work, we would have tried Prozac. She never was great about my leaving, but we got to a place where she was okay...just okay...and I decided that would have to do for us.

[Guest LunaTheGreyt]

I second the earlier suggestion for a different medication. Clomicalm didn't help Mandy, but Amitriptyline did. Our vet called in the prescription to Costco, which was the cheapest place I could find. If Amitriptyline didn't work, we would have tried Prozac. She never was great about my leaving, but we got to a place where she was okay...just okay...and I decided that would have to do for us.

 

"Okay" is a place I would much rather be than where we are now. I'm going to call the vet tomorrow and ask about changing meds. I've heard good things about prozac and amitryptiline, so we'll see which the vet recommends we try next. Fostering may help, but that's not a permanent solution and I honestly don't want to fall in love with a foster dog and feel compelled to adopt, when really I'm better off with one dog right now. Everyone here has been so helpful offering advice and experience! I really appreciate it.

[JohnF]

Hmmmm..... date a dog owner... many problems maybe get solved then

More practically you still have a different med. to try, the pet sitter and you have the idea of fostering another who totally must be SA free.

 

If that doesn't work, then as Brandianwe says you need a different dog that was already fostered and doesn't have SA. It's hard to bounce one back but if they are a nice freindly dog they will soon get another happy home; and if you're getting one from the same group then the group hasn't been burdened in any way by it. You know.... if Luna can steadily get more SA crazy then Luna can also become less stressed given time. You can't be blamed for your lifestyle and needing to go out to work or whatever; a lot of us have family who help to stop our dogs going stir-crazy when we are not there too.

[Guest LunaTheGreyt]

Hmmmm..... date a dog owner... many problems maybe get solved then

More practically you still have a different med. to try, the pet sitter and you have the idea of fostering another who totally must be SA free.

 

If that doesn't work, then as Brandianwe says you need a different dog that was already fostered and doesn't have SA. It's hard to bounce one back but if they are a nice freindly dog they will soon get another happy home; and if you're getting one from the same group then the group hasn't been burdened in any way by it. You know.... if Luna can steadily get more SA crazy then Luna can also become less stressed given time. You can't be blamed for your lifestyle and needing to go out to work or whatever; a lot of us have family who help to stop our dogs going stir-crazy when we are not there too.

 

I do need to date a dog owner! Too bad they're apparently few and far between. I'm keeping my eyes peeled!

 

I hope one of those options works out for us - rehoming her would be devastating and I would only do it as an extreme last resort.

[greysmom]

I'm pretty sure I posted in one of your earlier threads. Just like with people, different drugs work for different people differently. There isn't ONE anti-anxiety drugs that works for every dog, every time. Most vets begin with clomicalm because it's specifically marketed for animal use, but there are MANY drugs to try. For my spooky girl, we tried three different meds (clomipramine, xanax, and prozac) before finding one that worked (paxil).

 

Clomicalm (clomipramine) is a tricyclic antidepressant, along with amitriptyline. Since this class of drug doesn't seem to be the answer for Luna's problem, I would suggest either a benzodiazapine (lorazepam/Ativan, alprazolam/Xanax) or a SSRI (selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor) such as fluoxetine/Prozac or paroxetene/Paxil. Benzodiazepines are fast-acting and fast-metabolizing and need to be redosed every 6-8 hours, and are usually most useful for thunder and fireworks issues. SSRI's, like tricyclic antidepressants, can take a few weeks to build up to clinical levels. You can also use a benzodiazepine IN CONJUNCTION with a SSRI while waiting for the later to build to a clinical level.

 

Several people have recently used a drug called Trazadone with very good results. It's a newer class of drug called a SARI (serotonin agonist re-uptake inhibitor) and is just now beginning to be used for dogs.

 

Most vets don't have a lot of experience dealing with different drugs and different classes of drugs, since most are off-label uses of human medications. If you would like some professional advice regarding Luna, her behavior, and possible training and/or drugs to try, look for a certified animal behaviorist in your area. Make sure they are certified by the national body overseeing veterinary behaviorists. They can evaluate your situation and your dog, make training suggestions and also prescribe drugs.

 

If you do use a human drug, your vet simply can all the prescription in to whichever pharmacist you choose to fill the prescription. We use Costco now, but have also had veterinary prescriptions filled at Safeway and Walgreens. Most large pharmacies will fill vet scrips, and even give a discount.

[Guest LunaTheGreyt]

I'm pretty sure I posted in one of your earlier threads. Just like with people, different drugs work for different people differently. There isn't ONE anti-anxiety drugs that works for every dog, every time. Most vets begin with clomicalm because it's specifically marketed for animal use, but there are MANY drugs to try. For my spooky girl, we tried three different meds (clomipramine, xanax, and prozac) before finding one that worked (paxil).

 

Clomicalm (clomipramine) is a tricyclic antidepressant, along with amitriptyline. Since this class of drug doesn't seem to be the answer for Luna's problem, I would suggest either a benzodiazapine (lorazepam/Ativan, alprazolam/Xanax) or a SSRI (selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor) such as fluoxetine/Prozac or paroxetene/Paxil. Benzodiazepines are fast-acting and fast-metabolizing and need to be redosed every 6-8 hours, and are usually most useful for thunder and fireworks issues. SSRI's, like tricyclic antidepressants, can take a few weeks to build up to clinical levels. You can also use a benzodiazepine IN CONJUNCTION with a SSRI while waiting for the later to build to a clinical level.

 

Several people have recently used a drug called Trazadone with very good results. It's a newer class of drug called a SARI (serotonin agonist re-uptake inhibitor) and is just now beginning to be used for dogs.

 

Most vets don't have a lot of experience dealing with different drugs and different classes of drugs, since most are off-label uses of human medications. If you would like some professional advice regarding Luna, her behavior, and possible training and/or drugs to try, look for a certified animal behaviorist in your area. Make sure they are certified by the national body overseeing veterinary behaviorists. They can evaluate your situation and your dog, make training suggestions and also prescribe drugs.

 

If you do use a human drug, your vet simply can all the prescription in to whichever pharmacist you choose to fill the prescription. We use Costco now, but have also had veterinary prescriptions filled at Safeway and Walgreens. Most large pharmacies will fill vet scrips, and even give a discount.

 

Yes, I do remember that post! Thank you - very helpful!

[Brandiandwe]

On the dating thing, isn't it absolutely AWESOME when someone shows you really early in the process that they are really not the right person for you? OK, its upsetting at the time, but now you don't have to waste any more time on someone not right which means you are available for the right person. And don't necessarily look for a dog owner. But look for someone who is prepared to accept that there is another being in your life, who was there before him, with whom you have a deep emotional connection. As my mum suggested, don't look for the perfect partner, look for the person who has potential (to develop into the perfect partner for you).

[Houndmommy03]

No advice. Just sending a big hug to you and Luna.

[Guest Rhea]

And to cap it all off, a guy I was hoping to date pretty much just insinuated that I act like a single mother who doesn't get out because of my dog and that it's off-putting. I'm fairly certain people with dogs do date - we just have these things called responsibilities (feeding? walking? absurd!) that I guess other people in their mid-20s haven't heard of. Could this day get any better?

 

End rant. I'm in such a foul mood right now...

Sheesh! What a totally rude, self-centered opinion. "WHAT?? PERSON HAS TO BALANCE DOG. aGAINST SPENDING TIME WITH ME???? UNACCEPTABLE!!!!"

[Guest LunaTheGreyt]

Sheesh! What a totally rude, self-centered opinion. "WHAT?? PERSON HAS TO BALANCE DOG. aGAINST SPENDING TIME WITH ME???? UNACCEPTABLE!!!!"

 

MTE!

[silverfish]

Hmmmm..... date a dog owner... many problems maybe get solved then

More practically you still have a different med. to try, the pet sitter and you have the idea of fostering another who totally must be SA free.

 

If that doesn't work, then as Brandianwe says you need a different dog that was already fostered and doesn't have SA. It's hard to bounce one back but if they are a nice freindly dog they will soon get another happy home; and if you're getting one from the same group then the group hasn't been burdened in any way by it. You know.... if Luna can steadily get more SA crazy then Luna can also become less stressed given time. You can't be blamed for your lifestyle and needing to go out to work or whatever; a lot of us have family who help to stop our dogs going stir-crazy when we are not there too.

 

Yes to all of those.

 

I'm glad you're going to try a different drug for her, and also try fostering. Either or neither may work but both are worth a try.

 

 

Sheesh! What a totally rude, self-centered opinion. "WHAT?? PERSON HAS TO BALANCE DOG. aGAINST SPENDING TIME WITH ME???? UNACCEPTABLE!!!!"

 

Yikes. Well ... at least you know! No need to waste any more time, huh?

 

Seriously, that sounds - yes, self-centred - but also shows a few other things, I think: immaturity, arrogance, and a total lack of understanding how dating works, let alone real relationships with people! Wow. He thinks that before he is even really dating you properly he can tell you how you should act?

 

Sorry, I quoted the wrong post, but you know what I'm referring to. Stupid guy.

Edited August 16, 2013 by silverfish

[Guest LunaTheGreyt]

Short update: Starting Monday night, I will have my parents' dog James on "loan." He's a 9 y/o standard poodle, very calm/quiet, and has always gotten along very well with Luna (they don't play, but do coexist peacefully). If he soothes Luna's SA, I will keep him long-term. He's older, but is in good health and IMO should have at least a few good years left in him - in a year or two I will probably be in a situation where another grey would be more feasible. For now, "adopting" a dog I've had since I was a teenager seems like a better route to take (especially since my parents are still willing to pay for much of his care). If it doesn't work out, he'll go back to live with my parents, no harm done. I called the vet today but have not yet heard back (it's a small clinic but boy, are they busy!) but I've decided to start gradually weaning Luna off the clomipramine. It doesn't seem to be helping any, so I don't think she needs to keep taking it. I will see what the vet thinks in terms of putting her on a different medication (I'll mention all of the meds greysmom posted about) or if she thinks I should continue medicating at all. I will definitely keep you all posted -- expect another update on Tuesday night!

 

 

 

 

[Guest RMarie]

What a cute pair! Fingers crossed it helps!!!

[Guest Waterdog66]

They actually look to me like they are getting along great.

 

If the Poodle has good manners/behavior, my guess is Luna will quickly pick up on this; specially if he gets treated for good behavior.

 

I imagine that walking these two will certainly turn some heads. (What a great pair)

[seeh2o]

I'm so sorry you and Luna are going through this, I lived it with Carl, too. I actually had a second dog when he came to live with me, but she was 13 and wasn't interested in bonding with a new dog. He also could not be crated, I crated him once and when I came home from work I found him waiting for me at the front door. He had broken he soldering of the wire crate with his teeth and bent the wires. How he did not shred himself was a miracle. He also did a LOT of damage to things like my sofa, pulled down curtains and blinds, broke blinds and did a dreadful number on my front door and the door frame.

I did a lot of alone training...a lot. I walked him for 3.5 miles every morning thorough the steep trails of the local park to wear him out...he still had SA. I called the all breed group he came from for advice, but all I got was hysteria...that there was no such thing as "alone training", it wouldn't work and if I medicated him I would be "poisoning him". They wanted me to return him. That's when I dug my heels in...over my dead body would he be going back to a place that barely had running water, was in the high desert (it was 110 degrees the day I brought him home) and had no air conditioning...they were a caring group of people, but it was a very bare bones operation. Charla, here on GT, suggested I call a local greyhound group, so I called two. Got two calls right away, one group gave me a muzzle (which I had deep reservations about initially, but came to accept and see as a useful and welcome tool...still is), the other group took us into their fold, offered me their behavioral person (hours and hours of telephone consultation with follow ups via phone and email) for free. I took him to the vet, put him on clomipramine (the same thing as clomicalm, but the generic human version...so much cheaper). In addition to the clomipramine, the 3.5 mile walks every morning and the alone training, I had to give him 5mg of valium just so I could get out the door.

 

If the clomicalm isn't working, I agree, call your vet and switch meds. See if there is a human generic version and check the $4 formulary with places like Target. Carl's valium prescription has only been $4 at Target. I strongly disagree with other people about fostering or getting a second greyhound...it is an unknown entity and you could have double the headache and stress in the blink of an eye. Bringing over James on loan, who is known to Luna makes sense to me, he always has a place to go if having him around doesn't work. The usual fare didn't work for Carl, either, rescue remedy...I might as well have been feeding him ice cubes as it did nothing, DAP diffuser did nothing, soothing music did nothing.

 

The things that did work (eventually) the medication allowed him to learn that it was ok to be home without me, after the medication kicked in the 3.5 mile walks actually did calm him down, wearing a muzzle when I leave still works (he physically relaxes when I put it on him, he actually comes to me willingly to let me put it on him), I used my cell phone and home phone as a long distance baby monitor. I would call my cell phone from my home phone, then put the home phone on speaker, mute my cell and listen....I could tell how long it was before he started howling. As soon as he would start howling I would unmute my cell phone and say, Carl No. It worked really well (it didn't work 100% every time, but it really helped tremendously) he would think I was at home and settle down and, I think, eventually lay down and go to sleep. I also had a retired neighbor who was head over heels in love with him and offered to do doggy daycare in her home with him. She did that off and on for a couple of years before she moved out of state. I also did an obedience class with him, which helped us trust and bond. One thing the behaviorist pointed out to me, which was huge, was I needed to take a look at myself, my behavior, my expectations, my reactions to him, my stress and how all of that was translating to Carl. Dogs are sensitive creatures and can really feel and do react to our feelings. I needed to learn to cool my jets, too, as Carl was feeling my anxiety and taking that as a cue. That was just huge.

 

I know it feels like a long hard road you and Luna are on, but it does get better, you just have to hit on the right components that will work for your particular dog. For Carl, many of the typical easy fixes did nothing for him, but when we got the right combination of medication, training and other tools, he learned new coping skills and has done very well. One word of caution, when you find the right medication that will keep Luna's anxiety and fear at bay and allow Luna to learn new coping skills, do not take her off of it too soon. You really want her new skills to become ingrained daily life habits for her so that when you take her taper her off the medication they will be second nature to her even off the meds. I had Carl on meds for 4 - 5 months, in retrospect, I wish I'd kept him on for 6 - 8 months, it was an unnecessarily bumpy ride when I tapered him off. It think it would have been easier if he'd been on them a wee bit longer.

 

Please feel free to PM me or email me if it would help. My email is clkruzan at gmail dot com

Edited August 16, 2013 by seeh2o

[a_daerr]

Just wanted to say that I would discuss meds with your vet before weaning Luna. Some anti anxiety meds can cause EXTREME agitation if they aren't tapered in the correct way. Best to let your vet make that call. Even if they don't seem like they're working, you may find that she gets much worse when taken off.

[silverfish]

What a lovely dog - they're like greyhound shaped underneath all that curly fur, you know! Maybe Luna will recognise that.

 

Seriously, it sounds like a great way to try this out. As you say, he is a dog you've known a long time, Luna has met and likes him, and you get some of his bills paid into the bargain. I wish you the very best of good luck!

[Guest mebenz]

I've had Fred for only 2.5 weeks and broke down today because he's been non-stop barking anytime I leave him and thought I had it resolved with a citronella spray collar but when I checked on him with the webcam I put in, he was going ballistic. Came home and he had broken out of the crate too. I too rent. I am in an apartment and one crate (although now probably not usable) is a lot of room let alone another crate for another dog. What if the second dog doesn't resolve the SA but reinforces more SA to the second one? Then you have 2 barking and destructive dogs? I feel your pain as I'm going through it but not as long as you.

 

I have taken up jogging/walking again with Fred and we go for minimum 30 minutes each morning. The spray collar does help if I completely fill it up. Haven't tried the clomicalm, but tried rescue remedy, thundershirts, lots of exercise, kongs, talk radio, classical radio, leaving one of my shirts in the crate for my scent.

 

If he can't stay on his own in the living area (as I tried it in my room with a baby gate but he barked the entire time and wouldn't even sleep a wink) I will have to start taking him to Doggy Day Care so he can be around dogs/people all day. Will try that a few times a week and see if then I can start to reduce the # of days there etc. It's so expensive but it's either that or send my guy back (which the adoption people said may be the only solution) but he's my baby and makes me cry to even think that.

 

Do you take her to a Greyhound run? I take Fred once a week although that hasn't helped with his SA. Not sure where you live but I'm in the East End and take him to Norwood Park that has a huge sandy fenced in area that is Greyhounds from 12-1. Lots of Grey people and dogs.

I forgot I also bought a DAP diffuser. Did nothing and seemed to make him more anxious at night as he would be up every 2 hours then when it was unplugged, slept most of the night.

[XTRAWLD]

Is she tired out thoroughly before you crate her? A tired dog is a happy dog.

[Guest mebenz]

As well, my guy was fostered for a week before I got him and didn't exhibit SA. He had bad stair issues, which he still has now, but no SA. Maybe he just didn't bond well with the first foster and when she left it didn't bother him as much as with me?

[Brandiandwe]

Op I read your response on the other thread. It seems things are improving? Nice!!!!

[Guest LunaTheGreyt]

James (standard poodle) is here now. I haven't left them alone yet, but tomorrow I plan to leave for a short period of time to see how Luna does.

 

@mebenz You voiced my exact concerns about bringing in another dog. Luckily I live very close to my parents and they've allowed me to borrow the family dog (permanently, if necessary). I tried taking Luna to daycare but it did nothing to help her SA when left alone at my apartment. I had the same experience with the citronella collar...it worked like magic for a couple of days, but then she decided she could still bark and freak out while wearing it. Sounded good at first, anyway. If I have to give her up I will be absolutely devastated - but at some point I will have to draw the line (pretty much if James doesn't at least make a dent in the SA I'm going to have to make a difficult decision).

 

@XTRAWLD She gets a 2.5-3 mile brisk walk every morning. She usually tries to lie down halfway through because she's not much for exercise, but I make her keep going.

 

@brandiandwe Things have actually gotten a lot worse. Bringing in my family's dog is pretty much my last-ditch effort.

[Brandiandwe]

Then I've got my fingers crossed for you!

[seeh2o]

Fingers and paws crossed for a good result tomorrow...even a tiny bit of good is good!