Small Fight Between My 2 Greys, First Time With This Sort Of Thing

[DevilDog]

About an hour ago Sage and Finn got into it in the back yard. It's a beautiful day and all three of the dogs (third is a beagle) were outside laying in the sun. I was just inside the door in the living room. Out of nowhere, I hear a scuffle and a lot of angry barking and snarling. I jumped up and ran outside but by then they had separated. I was pretty sure it was the greyhounds, but I inspected to be sure. The corner of Sage's eye was bleeding (eye itself is fine), and Finn has two small scrapes on his muzzle. Everything appeared fine after that. (One strange thing to mention, when I was inspecting Sage right after the fight, her gums were paper white. After I got her inside to clean her eye, her gums were back to a healthy pink. Adrenaline??)

 

A little history on both dogs...

 

Sage has always been top dog (below the humans of course). She is confident and very tolerant but she also doesn't take any crap. She will lift her lip and growl at another dog who is greeting her a little too over enthusiastically, and has occasionally snapped when the dog isn't taking no for an answer. So she doesn't put up with that, but she's never let it escalate beyond that. Do I think she would fight? Yes, if the situation was right I don't think she would back down.

 

Finn has been here for 3.5 weeks. He's my shy and weary hound. Lately he's been getting more comfortable and testing the waters around here. He and Sage have had no issues previously, though Finn has growled a few times at Mojo (beagle) and Sage. A couple of those times I couldn't pin point why he growled.. I heard it from across the room. But the times he's growled at Mojo, it was because Mojo was jumping in his face (during excitement of my boyfriend coming home) and Finn snapped and growled. The other time Finn was standing next to me and I was petting him when Mojo approached us. The time that involved Sage, I was preparing the dogs dinner and Finn was standing in the living room watching. Sage walked up next to Finn to watch as well. He growled at that.

 

What we've been doing since day one is establishing Finn as the low man on the totum pole. Sage and Mojo eat first, walk through doors first, etc. I *think* Finn started it but can't be sure. Maybe he was pushing his luck and tried to be dominant with Sage and she gave him the what-for. I'm sure I can handle this on my own but I guess I'm looking for a little insight from others who have more experience with this. None of my other dog combos have gotten into it like this.

 

Thanks!

[macoduck]

I'm not sure if we can really train who should be dominant. They have to work it out. I always feed Gracie first. She's been here the longest and seemed to treat the old boys who came after her as "temps."

Can you muzzle them, including the beagle, until you feel they have worked this out? Better to be safe, ya know.

[greytpups]

Lisa, it sounds like you've been watching too much Caesar Milan. Dominance theory has been debunked long ago many times. Most folks let their pups work it out but in this instance it sounds like it is escalating, so I would muzzle if you leave them unsupervised. If resources guarding is an issue you may need to separate them at mealtimes.

[greysmom]

If Finn is here to stay you need to let them work it out, mostly. Who is "top dog" in the house is a fluid thing, not set in stone, depending on the situation and who feels most comfortable leading at that time. If you don't let him growl and warn the others that he doesn't like something, then he might just stop growling and escalate to biting with no warning. It sounds like he could be a little sensitive about his personal space. And now that he's calming down and settling into the house, he's beginning to assert himself. Resource guarding shouldn't be allowed, however, particularly if he's guarding you.

 

That being said, you do need to keep everyone in the house safe, including the much smaller dog. Muzzles are appropriate now. Mine always wear theirs if they are outside together, whether they start out playing or not, You just never know when somebody will start something.

[maggiespet]

No advise - just a small hijack. Congrats for adding Finn!!!! Pictures are needed please. Sure is nice to see you around Lisa.

[Sambuca]

It sounds like Finn is resource aggressive. When Mojo came over while you were petting him, he was guarding you, when you were preparing dinner and he growled at Sage, he was guarding food.

[DevilDog]

To address some points.. The dogs are muzzled when we're not home.. So I'm not too worried about that. I do think it was Finn who started the trouble today. Typically I'm more laid back with the "leader of the pack" type stuff. Sage has always naturally fallen into the leader roll and I never used to fuss with one dog being fed first or last or whatever. But its also my first time bringing a new hound in when there was a small dog present, so at the suggestion of my adoption group, I didn't think it was a bad idea to let Finn know that Mojo is not to be messed with. Mojo is too small to defend himself against Finn, so I helped the idea along. Whether it works or not, who knows.

 

Also, they are all separated while eating and I don't ever want to discourage growling, but don't want him to think he can get away with it either, ya know?

Edited April 14, 2013 by DevilDog

[DevilDog]

No advise - just a small hijack. Congrats for adding Finn!!!! Pictures are needed please. Sure is nice to see you around Lisa.

I've been poking around more and more. There's some threads in cute and funny, and everything else with Finn pics!

[Guest june]

Muzzles and let them work it out. I feed my pups in the order they joined the family. Other than that it is very fluid who is leader and who follows; really depends on the situation. Congratulations and I'm sure they will figure it out with time.

[kamsmom]

Muzzles. Even if you are home and especially if you are not outside with them. They need time to work things out.

[KickReturn]

it sounds like you've been watching too much Caesar Milan. Dominance theory has been debunked long ago many times.

 

I keep seeing this repeated but no one ever goes on to explain why one dog will consistenty do as they please while their companion dog will either happily or unhappily accept it. And there are other dogs that regardless of situation seem to tuck their tails, sit, or throw themselves on the ground and expose their bellies. I get that wolf pack hierarchy does not apply to dogs, but the consistent patern of some dogs always taking an assertive confident role in social interactions while some others consistently adopt a more careful and deferential attitude suggest that these behaviours are far from random or situational. Indeed it would seem that some of these creatures have an instinct driven concern regarding their status relative to another in terms of their survival.

 

To the OP, the muzzles are the way to go - you have a new member so expect some sorting out.

[inugrey]

Dog Sense is a great book to help understand current science on dog behavior.

Edited April 14, 2013 by inugrey

[TheFullHouse]

First, there is no top dog. Seriously, who you consider to be the top dog changes from situation to situation. Since Finn is so new to the home, muzzles always outside. Whether they are sunbathing or not, unless you want to sit there with them the entire time they are out there and watch their every move. Fights can break out in an instance and by the time you can react, someone can be seriously hurt. If you find yourself busy and not able to keep an eye on them in the house, muzzle them until you can. I respond to every growl I hear. Usually around here it's Pistol or Joey because someone walks too closely to their bed. This may have been what happened while your dogs were sunning themselves. Someone shifted position, someone else growled and unless you can distinguish between your dogs voices (which you will learn to do), you have no idea who started it. Start rewarding them when they are standing next to each other for your attention, lots of good dogs, maybe a little treat. Try and really be proactive in the positive reinforcement department, it goes a long way. It's things you will learn as you go along. You have to especially be vigilant with the Beagle being there. He's a lot smaller than the other two and if they ever decided to gang up on him he wouldn't stand a chance. It's a bit more difficult the more dogs you have but once things settle down you will find you won't have to pay as close attention to what is going on with the dogs.

[Walliered]

Muzzles are a great thing!

[JJNg]

I keep seeing this repeated but no one ever goes on to explain why one dog will consistenty do as they please while their companion dog will either happily or unhappily accept it. And there are other dogs that regardless of situation seem to tuck their tails, sit, or throw themselves on the ground and expose their bellies. I get that wolf pack hierarchy does not apply to dogs, but the consistent patern of some dogs always taking an assertive confident role in social interactions while some others consistently adopt a more careful and deferential attitude suggest that these behaviours are far from random or situational. Indeed it would seem that some of these creatures have an instinct driven concern regarding their status relative to another in terms of their survival.

 

I think it mostly comes down to motivation and personality. It has nothing to do with status. Even the correct scientific definition of dominance is about access to resources and isn't about status. A dog who wants something more, or has a more confident personality, is going to be more assertive about getting it. Whereas a dog who doesn't care as much about the desired item, or has a more timid personality, or is just a stable dog who prefer to avoid conflict, is going to defer to the other dog.

 

The more dogs you watch, the more you truly observe objectively without any preconceived notions and interpretations, you'll see that these interactions aren't always consistent and are very fluid and change from one situation to another.

[Guest Giselle]

OP: I use muzzles only when in conjunction with training. In the end, a muzzle is simply something that covers a dog's mouth. If you want real change, you need to train it and change their behavior. If you have any suspicion of fighting over resources at all, implement "Nothing in Life is Free" or "Learn to Earn". The dogs shouldn't be fighting with each other over resources because it should ALL be coming from you and only you.

 

So, what are these two training programs? Basically, the animals must produce a behavior prior to receiving a resource, and they should offer these behaviors automatically (without you explicitly telling them to). They should be automatic behaviors because you want the animals to learn self-control. Any dog can listen to a command, but few dogs have true impulse control. Before receiving food, toys, treats, pets, going for a walk, the dogs should give you automatic eye-contact at a minimum. Automatic Sits and Downs are also good default behaviors for these exercises. For example, prior to getting their food, they should give you eye contact automatically and not eat until you say, "Okay!". After eating, they should give you automatic eye contact again and only leave their place when you say, "Okay!":

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/LSophie/media/Videos/FeedingTime.mp4.html

It is just like having children. You simply need rules and you need to enforce them in a way that allows the animals to think and to offer behaviors on their own/automatically.

 

As for dominance: Dominance is a relationship between animals. It's not a personality trait. These are two totally, entirely different things. Dog A can be confident, happy, gregarious, outgoing, pushy -- and be completely submissive to Dog B. Dominance = social relationship, not a personality trait. That's why it's erroneous to recommend giving preferential access to resources to a "dominant" dog (because dominance isn't a personality trait!).

 

While we're talking psychology, there's a word for this:

The more dogs you watch, the more you truly observe objectively without any preconceived notions and interpretations, you'll see that these interactions aren't always consistent and are very fluid and change from one situation to another.

^Selective attention to only those events that confirm one's preconceived notions = confirmation bias Psych food for thought!

[MaryJane]

You mentioned that the corner of the eye was bleeding - if that is the case, it's worth going to the vet to check the eye. If the eye was scratched, you will likely not see it, the vet will need to use their tools to check. If there is a scratch, antibiotics will be needed to make sure that the eye does not get infected.

[Charlies_Dad]

Muzzle them until they get to know each other and work things out. Finn is still new and things like this will happen from time to time. Also I would supervise them outside for a while as things can escalate quickly even with muzzles on.

[KickReturn]

 

I think it mostly comes down to motivation and personality. It has nothing to do with status. Even the correct scientific definition of dominance is about access to resources and isn't about status. A dog who wants something more, or has a more confident personality, is going to be more assertive about getting it. Whereas a dog who doesn't care as much about the desired item, or has a more timid personality, or is just a stable dog who prefer to avoid conflict, is going to defer to the other dog.

 

 

 

That sounds exactly like a description of dominance and submissiveness. Give it any term you care to but it comes to the same thing. Status in dogs? It can only be about who gets to eat first, mate first, etc. or like you say access to resource. Interesting... we always deny dominance theory and then go on to describe dominant and submissive behaviours and call it something else. All I can take from all of this is that dogs are so variable that they each seem to have their own way of relating to their surroundings.

[JJNg]

Not the same at all. It's about looking at the details of individual situations and interactions, rather than assigning a broad label. And maybe you look at it differently, but labeling a dog as dominant or submissive, and thinking about it in terms of status or hierarchy often leads to some, possibly unintended but subconscious, assumptions.

Imagine a situation where a novice owner's new dog growls at them over the food bowl. If that owner is told that their dog is misbehaving because of dominance, it gives most people a confrontational mindset - the idea that their dog is somehow challenging them and thinks he's higher ranked. But if the owner is told that the dog values his food and feels a need to defend it because he doesn't trust his new owner yet, that creates an understanding of the dog's specific motives and desires in that situation.

So no, it's not just about a difference in terminology, but a whole different mindset and perspective in how we view our dogs. If we accept that "dominance and submission" is variable and fluid, and interactions between the same dogs can differ based on the situation, how is it useful to try to determine which dog is the more dominant one?

[Guest Giselle]

Again, dominance is describing the RELATIONSHIP between two animals, not their PERSONALITIES. It is entirely different. One is describing a highly ritualized set of behaviors used in social settings to MITIGATE AGGRESSION/SOCIAL TENSION. The other is an intrinsic part of an animal's emotional character and personality.

 

If I always get access to food over a 5-year-old child, I am technically the dominant member in this situation. But that child could be completely bossy, pushy, antagonistic, whereas I am quiet and shy. The latter are personality traits. The former is a social relationship. It's entirely different.

 

I am so tired of this old drawn out misunderstood "debate". Can we get one thing clear? We are not denying the existence of dominance in social relationships. What we are denying is the usefulness of "dominance" to 1) describe individual personalities 2) guide behavior modification. 1) It does NOT describe personality 2) It is generally not useful for modifying behavior.

 

In fact, I think it is so naive the way we try to project these human-like qualities to animals. We are always trying to anthropomorphize them in ways that make it easier for us to "understand" them when, in fact, we are simply projecting our own ideals of conflict, of power, of aggression onto them. The reality is that dog cognition is so much more sophisticated and flexible than we could ever hope to understands, and we are doing them an incredible disservice by trying to pare down their complex social and emotional lives into something as erroneous as "dominance theory".

[JJNg]

Actually, given the way most people perceive the idea of dominance today, I don't think it's so useful to consider even in the context of social relationships between dogs.

[DevilDog]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. Was just looking for a little insight and ideas, not a debate.

 

[KickReturn]

Again, dominance is describing the RELATIONSHIP between two animals, not their PERSONALITIES. It is entirely different. One is describing a highly ritualized set of behaviors used in social settings to MITIGATE AGGRESSION/SOCIAL TENSION. The other is an intrinsic part of an animal's emotional character and personality.

 

 

We are not denying the existence of dominance in social relationships. What we are denying is the usefulness of "dominance" to 1) describe individual personalities 2) guide behavior modification. 1) It does NOT describe personality 2) It is generally not useful for modifying behavior.

 

 

 

Thank you, this is the clarification I was looking for. I get confused when others without the background attempt to parrot this info and end up denying the existence of dominance outright.

 

As it happens I don't train my hound (he just follows me around) so dominance or any other theory would simply not apply as there is no attempt at any behaviour modification. And although he displays only dominant behaviours in every "social relationship" with every dog that has ever approached him, I promise I will never describe his personality as dominant.

 

Sorry to the OP for the thread hijack. Keep us updated on how your pups are getting along. (And debates are fun.)

Edited April 17, 2013 by KickReturn

[Guest Giselle]

People strongly hesitate to use the word "dominance" at all anymore because it has been so butchered and maimed and exploited as an excuse to hit, beat, choke, jab, kick animals. But does it exist in social relationships in regards to priority access to resources? Yes, no one is denying that. But it is NOT what the public believes (i.e. the definition of dominance necessarily requires preferential access to resources!!!!!), and many major public figures exploit "dominance" to basically legitimize animal abuse. That's why we hate using that word.

 

It does not exist in the most accurate use of the term when two dogs are simply meeting. It DOES occur when two dogs are trying to figure out who gets to eat what. The difference? Resources. It's a subtlety, and most people tend not to understand this or use the word correctly. This is why we choose not to use it at all. It's just not helpful in terms of educating owners.

 

Sorry, OP, but, if the word "dominance" comes up in dog training, this is the dead horse that comes with it!

Edited April 18, 2013 by Giselle