Aggression And Alpha Behavior

[Guest RMarie]

Thank you to everyone. When I posted this morning I was pretty distressed, hence my tone, but yall have made me feel a lot better about it.

 

Don't worry...you are not alone and your dog is not bad! James growled at DH the FIRST night we had him because DH gave him a stuffy and then tried to take it away. This was after visiting him at his foster parents' house where we played with toys and took them away from him to play fetch back and forth across the room with not one growl. You two can overcome this. Definitely work on trading up. Practice, practice, practice. A tip our dog-walker gave us is to hold the treat in your hand and make sure he's nibbling on it before retrieving the toy. That way, you can further avoid a last-ditch lunge for the toy because his mouth is still on the food.

 

Good luck!!!

[Guest Thall447]

Everyone, this afternoon after talking to my adoption agency and using the advice you all gave me, and I gave Kota the same toy he growled for earlier. I let him play, and didn't try to take the toy. Eventually he lost interest and just wanted to play with me. I started trading up for the toy with treats and praise, and he responded beautifully. I realize this morning was my fault, that it was just his way of saying "mine" the and not alpha behavior or real aggression. We worked for an hour on commands, recalls, and toys, and because I wasn't actively taking his toy, he was happy to give it up for a treat. You were all wonderful, thank you.

[Sambuca]

Thats awesome. I'm glad you and he are communicating better. Sometimes it's good when we make mistakes because fixing it makes great bonding for you and your pup. Maybe thats why my pups and I are so close.

[inugrey]

Great update!

 

Your day today reminded me of one of my first days with my boy when he was new. He growled and got stiff over a bone. I'd never seen such a thing or read about it in those greyhounds books adoption agencies ask you to read. I was FREAKED. I asked for help from my dog's foster mom and the adoption agency and did some of my own reading. All resources were great, but I did read a booklet that told me to stare him down, blah blah blah. The next time I gave him a high value treat I tried that stare down crap and quickly realized neither of us really understood what that was supposed to do for either of us. I still laugh when I think about me staring down at Inu and him staring up at me like "what lady, it's my damn bone." Needless to say I talked to his foster mom some more and ignored that book and picked up Patricia McConnell and Pat Miller books instead.

 

I have since adopted a dog considered aggressive and unadoptable. We all learn with our first dog. Enjoy the ride.

[NeylasMom]

Everyone, this afternoon after talking to my adoption agency and using the advice you all gave me, and I gave Kota the same toy he growled for earlier. I let him play, and didn't try to take the toy. Eventually he lost interest and just wanted to play with me. I started trading up for the toy with treats and praise, and he responded beautifully. I realize this morning was my fault, that it was just his way of saying "mine" the and not alpha behavior or real aggression. We worked for an hour on commands, recalls, and toys, and because I wasn't actively taking his toy, he was happy to give it up for a treat. You were all wonderful, thank you.

Great update! And if your boy was willing to work with you for an hour straight, it sounds like you have a fun one on your hands. Sounds like you might have a good candidate for flyball, agility, obedience, nosework, or some other doggie sport.

[JJNg]

Tanner, I'm glad to hear you're making progress and things are going better with Kota. I find that most of these issues often resolve without a whole lot of training, as long as you go slow and give the dog a chance to settle in and get to know and trust you. Obviously, each individual dog is different, and some require more work than others.

Like many others here, I believe that much of what humans consider 'aggression' in dogs is often just communication. We can often strengthen our bond by respecting what the dog is saying and teaching them that there is no need to get defensive, rather than just approaching the behavior as something that is unacceptable.

 

 

So...after some time with you, a dog is not allowed give you its opinion?

No, they're not. Because otherwise, they'd be growling and snapping during every nail trim, vet exam, blood draw, wound cleaning, etc. They have learned to put enough trust in me that I will protect them from major harm and danger. And if something is making them uncomfortable in an unmanagable way, they know more appropriate ways to convey it (silent cues like posture, tail position, ears, eye movements, walking away).

 

This seems to be assuming a lot about the dog's tolerance level and depth of trust in you. I feel that we mostly agree about dog communication, but I'm not really getting your point here. Obviously your dogs don't growl and snap during nail trims, vet exams, blood draws, etc, because those are all things they've learned to accept through your guidance. But dogs don't always generalize to unknown situations, and if they were placed in a situation they found very threatening one day, you would "not tolerate" them trying to communicate their discomfort by growling?

Personally, if a dog who I knew trusted me growled one day, that would really get my attention, and I'd look at the situation more closely to see what got him upset. Perhaps even look for a medical problem like pain or illness if that growling was really out of character. I wouldn't just consider the growl unacceptable because I feel that the dog should trust me.

[EnzaFerrari]

When the vet speaks, we listen.

 

OP - Jen and Colleen have done wonders with dogs that most people would have returned or given up on. Lord knows when my dog went through a bout of pushiness, I reached out to them and received good advice with a healthy dose of reality and sense of humor. Personally, you two are going to be fine. I have said a million times on here that I spent the first month with Enza wondering just what in the world I had done. It's normal.

[a_daerr]

I've already deviated enough from the OP's original question. Whether you allow your dog to growl or not growl is a personal preference. My dogs don't growl at humans anymore- I feel that through training and desensitization, they have gone through a process of behavioral extinction. It is quite possible for dogs to develop other communication signals as an alternative to growling. I am merely making the point that it's the OP's decision whether or not he wants to tolerate growling at some distant point in the future. I realize that I participate in more training and probably have higher expectations for my dogs than most owners. My forte is formal obedience training and therapy dog work- arenas where growling is not acceptable when the dog is not in serious pain or imminent danger.

 

Good job to the OP! I love to see new owners working through problems instead of bouncing the dog. Kota sounds like a smart boy.

[greytpups]

Great update...hope things continue to work out. I also hope you continue to reach out when necessary. If you can ignore or weed through the negativity, you'll often find some good advice providing you're open to hearing and understanding it. Many of us have btdt and can sound abrupt or will question other's opinions. But when you need support, there's no other place like this GT community.

[NeylasMom]

To the OP, here's a nice concise article from an actual professional that sums up what I was saying.

[Guest Thall447]

_{Thanks All}

[zimsmom]

Your dog sounds like Zims child! in the beginning she tried to rule the house. I went to obedience classes & NILIF. Zim had to work for everything she got food treats toys. It worked quite well for her. She still growls quite a bit but I just ignore her now. I would also not let your dog near any children no matter what until you figure this out. Best of luck.

[JJNg]

Good article, Jen (NeylasMom). For me, it's not about whether growling is 'allowed' or not. Growling is communication, and a dog will do it if he feels threatened or stressed. The important point is how we view and understand growling, and what we do about it. A dog who is content, well adjusted, and understands our rules will not growl. So our job is to help them feel comfortable and teach them what is expected. Growling itself is not 'bad behavior' that shouldn't be tolerated, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it either. When a dog growls, we need to look deeper...figure out why the dog is growling and help him realize that it's not necessary.

[NeylasMom]

Growling itself is not 'bad behavior' that shouldn't be tolerated, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it either. When a dog growls, we need to look deeper...figure out why the dog is growling and help him realize that it's not necessary.

Amen sista'!.

Edited March 13, 2013 by NeylasMom

[Guest Thall447]

_{Hey everyone!, Just figured Id give an update on Kota. A pretty funny one at that. Yesterday when I got home, he was so excited and happy, I took him out then decided to go for a run with him, down to the pet supermarket, I wanted to get him a good grooming brush and a clicker for some positive reinforcement. It is a little more than a half mile from my home, so I figured a good jog there and back would be good for him. He was very good at keeping pace with me (even though my running pace is between his trot and gallop), and we got to the pet store in no time.}

 

_{There were more people there than I expected (or hoped), but i wasnt worried, he loves people. The minute we got through the door, he spotted the wall of soft toys, and it was obvious how bad he wanted one, but I kept him close on a short leash, and he was very well behaved, not pulling or barking or even whining. I young girl walked up and asked if she could pet him. I was wary of this, but I told her to go slow and scratch under his chin instead of over top of him, and I held him close. Of course, he loved it, and she loved him .}

 

_{So anyways I got to the clicker, and got to the isle with the grooming supplies. While I was picking one out, I didnt notice the end cap right next to me with some soft squeaky toys! I saw Kota look at me, then back at the toys, then again at me, then back at the toy, then verrrrrrrry slowly, with his eyes on me, he grabbed a toy. I couldnt help but laugh. We have been training and he is getting much better already, but i decided not to try and take it from him, because I wasnt going to risk him growling or barking in the store, especially with the children around. Then the toy squeaked and he lost it! chomping and swinging it all around. The little girl went to her dad and two little sisters and said "Look the doggie picked out his own toy!" to which they replied, "AWWWWW!". So then it was over, I had to buy it for him. Plus it was a good opportunity to train at home with a toy he obviously wanted. While in line he was well behaved, just happily enjoying his stuffy, and I got so many compliments on how beautiful he is, asking where I got him, etc. It was a good feeling. He jogged all the way home with the stuffy in his mouth.}

 

_{When we got home I let him play with his toy for a while, and got out my clicker and some cheese (which so far is his favorite treat). I didnt try to take the toy, I would just call his name, and when he looked at me, I would click and treat. I did this for a half hour or so, then we lost interest in the toy and we trained other commands for another half hour.}

 

_{He got a hold of one of my rugby balls last night. I didnt want to let him have it at first, but by the time I realized what was happening to say No, it was already in his mouth. So far Ive learned that if he is sniffing at something he wants I can deter him by saying no, but once its in his mouth, game over. Its leather (synthetic), and I had two of that kind, so I let him have it, he seemed like he enjoyed chewing it. I used this opportunity again to try trading up, and this time tried introducing the command "Out" (this is what they used in his pre-adoption training). The first couple times, he took the treat, and when I took the ball he lunged for it. Then I made him sit and gave it back. After a while, if I tried the same trade, hed go for the treat but growl if I put a hand toward the ball. So I backed off and went back to treating when he looked at me. Again, he eventually lost interest, but by this time the ball was torn up. No biggie, and this morning I gave him his toy and worked the drop command a couple times, and he did it well. So it seems its just new toys that he guards for a little while. And that means while we are working on this together, I just wont attempt to take new toys from him until he and I are more comfortable with it.}

 

_{Question time, when he does get ahold of something like that, say a pillow or something (he likes chewing pillows too haha), what is the best way to stop the action. I can call him away and distract him with a treat, but that is usually after a couple minutes of his 100% attention given to the item he has. I hid everything that isnt expendible, but Id still like to know the proper way to do this with a resource guarder, if there is a way.}

 

_{Thanks again Everyone! I hope my pet store story helped your morning.}

Edited March 13, 2013 by Thall447

[a_daerr]

A dog who is content, well adjusted, and understands our rules will not growl. So our job is to help them feel comfortable and teach them what is expected. Growling itself is not 'bad behavior' that shouldn't be tolerated, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it either. When a dog growls, we need to look deeper...figure out why the dog is growling and help him realize that it's not necessary.

 

I think this is something we can all agree on.

 

As for Kota, my advice is to keep a pocket full of (high value) treats on you at all times. If you notice that he grabs something he's not supposed to have, immediately use "drop it" or "out" (or whatever command you're using). Show him the treat, and once he opens his mouth to let go, say "good boy!" and trade up. Because he's a bit of a guarder, the idea is to re-train his thinking so that when a hand approaches, he understands its intended purpose is to give rather than take away. Once he becomes reliable with the command, you can phase out the treats. Also, your dog may benefit from some hand feeding. It sounds like he's making good progress. I had to laugh though about Kota slowwwwly grabbing the stuffy at the pet store. My younger grey does the same thing if he really wants something, but knows I'm watching.

[Batmom]

We start "drop it!" training with something SAFE that the dog doesn't want at all -- say, an old washcloth or an out-of-favor toy. Usually something the dog won't even pick up, or something they'll take but drop immediately on their own. I hand it to them (or place it in front of them if they won't take it). Cheerful "Drop it!", take the object back, "good dog!" (or click) and treat -- all in rapid succession. Then immediately give the object back. Repeat repeat repeat repeat over 3-4 days. When the dog is anticipating each move, I progress to something they might be mildly interested in and work on that one for a couple days. Then something they'll actually pick up in their mouth but don't care a lot about. Etc.

 

The idea is to get the dog totally tuned in to this game, so it's automatic. ALWAYS leave the object with the dog -- you can pick it up later when he abandons it on his own.

 

I most always do a couple days at each level, even if the first performance with that object is perfect. Forming a habit here . And, after the command is well-learned even for exciting objects, we practice from time to time with less exciting things. Habits are golden -- form the habit, and he'll quickly forget the few occasions over the years when you have to take something and not give it back.

[NeylasMom]

That's a great update on your progress with Kota. I think your teaching a give cue (or in your case it sounds like you're using "out"?) needs a little tweaking but you are well on your way to success.

 

First, you already seem to have picked up on this, but in order to set yourself and Kota up for success you want to do the training with items that aren't of the highest value. That means restricting items that will be unless you're prepared to let him have them until he's done and doing the work with something that he still values, but will give up a little more readily. Later, when you have the out cue very solid, you can progress to higher value items.

 

Second, and perhaps most important is that once you give the cue, you want to ensure that he is happily distracted so you can safely pick up the object that he's dropped. Initially, this means you are going to give the cue, then making sure that he knows you have really yummy treats and sees you do this, throw a large handful of treats away from him. You'll have to play around a little to see what works, but often you need a trail leading away to a bigger pile so he will go for the nearest treat and drop the toy in the process, then start working his way toward the pile. Only when he's working on the pile do you reach down to pick up the item. If you can't do so safely (before he realizes what's happening) then either forget about picking the toy up at this point in the training or make a longer trail/drop a larger pile. I would also try out some other treats. Cheese is high value, but I find most of my dogs prefer meat. I would try cooked chicken, or I save my scraps from eating steak for training like this.

 

Then, the other step of the exercise you're missing is a "take it" cue. This will eventually teach him not to grab objects from you and it also teaches him that giving up an object also means that he gets a boatload of yummy treats, but that he gets his toy back. That's HUGE. That's also why you'll always end your training by letting him play with the object. So, once you've successfully picked up the object and he's come back looking for it, tell him right away to "take it" and give it to him. If you can't safely get it off of the floor, then as he comes back, give the cue before he gets to the object. You may also initially need to toss it to him when you say it so that he doesn't grab it from you or accidentally get you with his teeth, depending on his enthusiasm.

 

Once he has the toy back, you would repeat the process. So it's:

1. Give the "out" cue

2. Immediately drop a trail of high value treats and/or a large pile of them several feet away from you, making sure he sees you do this

3. When he is safely away from you and focused on eating the treats, pick up the toy (may have to work up to this step)

4. When he is done eating and returns, give the "take it" cue

5. Safely give the toy back to him (may require tossing initially)

 

When you have all of those steps down pat with various items, then you can start decreasing the number of treats OR the distance you throw them (don't do both at once). When I say you have them down pat, it means that Kota shows NO anxiety over what's happening at any stage. If he is still rushing to get back to the toy before he's eaten the treats, you aren't there yet. If at any point, he starts to show anxiety or tension, you need to back up to an earlier step.

 

The ultimate goal is you say "out" and hold the treat in front of his face and he drops the toy to take the treat from your hand. Then from there, you can just give the cue, and click and treat once he's dropped it. That's way down the road. Focus on the steps I gave above for the time being and you'll be well on your way to avoiding the growling.

[greysmom]

If he has something he wants - like a pillow - and you need to get it away from him sooner rather than later, the trick is to have a higher value treat. Something exceptionally yummy that you only use for this purpose so it remains a really special treat.

 

>say your command - drop it - and immediately hand him a treat and throw another one a short distance away

>pick up the toy/pillow/whatever when his attention is diverted

>hand him another treat

>put toy out of sight or out of reach

[Brandiandwe]

Maybe another option is to teach 'leave it' especially for things he wants but hasn't got yet. I use this with mine because I don't want to have to get things off them and it's good for stopping them eating stuff they shouldn't.

 

Start with low value treats in one hand and excellent ones in the other. Hold out the low value ones and as he sniffs say leave it and offer high value ones. Eventually when you say leave it he'll leave it immediately and look for rewards from you. I can now have my two leave sirloin steak and smelly cheese so other things are no trouble.