Question

[TheFullHouse]

Bullitt has been put on K/D food until we get his blood pressure down and reduce the swelling he is having in his belly so we can figure out what is causing all this. He tolerates the K/D dry food soaked in water at night but will not touch it at all in the morning. Thanks to Aimee (thank you, you saved me this morning) who sent me some K/D canned, he ate breakfast once I offered him the canned. He ate a whole can. What I need to know is, how much of the canned food should he be eating so that he doesn't start to lose weight? There are 495 kcal's per can. His normal weight is 69 - 70 lbs. He weighs much more now because of the fluid build up but I don't want him losing body weight while we get his pressure down. His kidneys are working just fine, we just want to protect them while he's being treated.

[PrairieProf]

How many calories are in a cup of the dry food? That way you can convert cups of dry you'd be feeding him to how many cans would be equivalent (at least roughly). Beth is on I/D long-term and I know that 1 can = 1 cup of dry calorie-wise for that. (It definitely gets expensive as hell to use a lot of the canned -- fortunately she generally just gets 1/4 can as a topper on the dry. Have you tried mixing some together?)

[tbhounds]

That's a lot of calories/can. I think you have to compare that to how many calories/cup of dry. Keep in mind too that most prescription renal diets are higher in fat to make it more palatable. Watch for soft stool and weight gain.

[Batmom]

You can find the K/D calories per cup for dry on the manufacturer website (I think it's Hillspet.com) . I'm guessing @ 3 cans/day.

[TheFullHouse]

I found the dry and it was 396 a cup and he gets 1 1/2 cups at night. I think I will try and mix the canned with the dry and see if he will eat it that way. Poor guy followed me around while I handed out food and when I sat his down he sniffed at it and looked at me like I was being cruel to him. He walked away without touching it but he did eat a can of the canned food.

 

I'm hoping this is short term just until we get his blood pressure down and the fluid build up resolved. Hopefully we will then find the cause of all of this.

Edited February 9, 2013 by JillysFullHouse

[PrairieProf]

Here ya go. 396 calories per cup of dry. http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-canine-kd-canine-renal-health-dry.html

 

BTW, just to clear up a point of easy confusion, you can't compare the protein, fat, etc. nutrient percentages as you see them on the site here to other foods. They list them here based on dry weight or whatever you call it, not in the food as consumed. The actual bag has the as-fed percentages.

[Batmom]

Judy, if he won't eat properly, some of the other manufacturers (Purina; I forget who else) have similar prescription diets so you might try one of those. You could also cook for him -- Joseph eats a homecooked diet based (somewhat loosely) on Hill's recipe for homecooked K/D.

[TheFullHouse]

Thanks Anne! Jey, the only time I have trouble with him eating it is in the morning. My thoughts were he gets his last blood pressure med at 10:00 at night with a couple of cookies and maybe the blood pressure medication was making him nauseous. When I talked with the vet yesterday she said it was entirely possible plus he is on 1/2 of a baby aspirin daily to prevent him from throwing a clot and those may be messing up his tummy so we started him on prilosec (the generic) yesterday plus some nausea medication which I gave him last night at 10:00 but he took one look at that food and walked away, but he sure wanted everyone else's meal. That was when I tried the canned and he ate it all, which is a good thing because I put his meds in it.

 

I had thought if this didn't work I would find out what was in the K/D food and maybe cook something for him and add a little to the kibble and see if that worked. He'll sure eat anything else that's offered.

[Rickiesmom]

If K/D is the low protein diet, you might consider trying the Royal Canin / MediCal Reduced Protein diet. The specialty clinic had Jaynie on Royal Canin when she was in there with her kidney issues, and I prefer it to Hill's (and Purina) based on ingredients.

 

The wet food in quantity can give her the runs (its ingredients are not the same as the dry) but she eats the dry (I do add a bit of warm water and swish it around) with no issue.

 

Hope you get some answers for Bullitt soon.

[Batmom]

Just in case:

 

The Hill's homemade version of K/D is beef, rice, egg, and white bread -- not sure if that last is for enriched-bread nutrients or just a function of the decade in which it was developed -- plus calcium and a vitamin.

 

I use @ 4 oz not-too-fatty ground beef and 1 egg for the protein component of each meal; IIRC that's a little above the Hill's K/D protein level but not a lot. Joseph eats mainly beef, egg, calcium, vitamin-mineral supplement, and whatever carb happens along -- rice, a few noodles, a little oatmeal, Shredded Wheat, Cheerios, Corn Chex (all low-additive people cereals -- costly but easy) .... He needs the reduced protein and seems to do best on lower salt as well.

[Hubcitypam]

I found the dry and it was 396 a cup and he gets 1 1/2 cups at night. I think I will try and mix the canned with the dry and see if he will eat it that way.

Maybe try soaking the dry for a bit then mixing in the canned? When Poodle first started his shots I mixed in canned and he'd suck off the canned and spit out the dry. The soaking fixed that.

[TheFullHouse]

Thanks for everyone's input. I don't think it's the food now because he doesn't want to eat anything. I can get one or two bites of people food in him and he stops. I'm afraid my little man is giving up. He's just laying around, doesn't want to play today and he can't go for a walk because we're having thunder storms. I'll call the vet first thing in the morning but I just don't have a good feeling about this now. All I know is it's too soon.

[Batmom]

Oh no oh no oh no.

 

Has there been any change in meds, Judy, that could be affecting his appetite for the worse?

 

Sending prayers.

[Guest Vers]

I'm awfully sorry to see your update that Bullitt is having a hard day. Do you have anything on hand that might settle his stomach? My vet will also prescribe appetite stimulants when they're necessary -- no doubt you're familiar with them, but I know sometimes I can't think clearly when I'm too worried.

 

Hoping by tomorrow your boy is feeling better -- you and he will be in our thoughts here.

[gazehund]

Oh no Judy. I didn't respond to this thread because I have no experience but I have been watching. Prayers and more prayers for Bullitt and for you.

[heartdogs]

Sending prayers for Bullitt. I hate it when there is a problem like this.

[TheFullHouse]

Jey, on Friday when we went I mentioned to the vet that he seemed to be eating more slowly in the mornings and was wondering if the bp medication was making him nauseous so she added famotidine (20 mg.) twice daily and Metoclopramide (10 mg.) every 8 hours as needed for nausea to his BP med which is Diltiazen (30 mg.) and he gets 1 1/2 tablets every 8 hours plus 1/2 of a baby aspirin a day. He's been taking the Diltiazen for over a week now and the baby aspirin for 3 weeks now.

 

I knew things were going down hill when I said to hell with the K/D and lets see if I can get anything in to him so I offered him a couple of tiny pieces of bacon and a little bit of egg this morning and he refused. Normally he's hanging around the kitchen when I cook breakfast on Sunday mornings and he just lay on the sofa.

\

[ZoomDoggy]

Just seeing this now. I wish I had great advice, but alas...

 

Any chance you're willing to try syringe-feeding for a while? I've done that with good success in the past. You can soak the kibble until soft, then liquefy in a food processor with warm water (adding in canned as well if you wish), until it's very smooth and liquidy enough for an oral syringe. The dogs I've done this with, have never put up a fuss about it, they just started swallowing as I slowly plunged the syringeful of food into their mouths.

Edited February 10, 2013 by ZoomDoggy

[Guest Vers]

Seconding ZoomDoggy -- syringe or hand feeding with gentle force if needed are good options.

 

Stretching here in hopes it might help, but since Stella is apparently the pickiest hound in the world even when she's healthy, I've thought about what she would not be able to resist if she ever gets sick.

 

Liverwurst on warm toast. Followed by a second course of canned cat food topped with sardines. Anything to get her to eat, and I know we'll have that day someday.

 

I'm so sorry that Bullitt's stomach feels so bad. Still hoping that the famotidine helps -- glad you have that already.

[Rickiesmom]

For what it's worth, when Rickie doesn't eat for awhile I think he starts to feel sick because of the not eating, so then he still won't eat. It's a sort of vicious circle. Once I manage to get something into him, he's often willing to continue eating. I wonder if you could get something plain into Bullitt like syringed pureed turkey baby food, or whatever you think will agree with him most, if that would help.

 

That said, you know Bullitt best and what will help him. Fingers and paws crossed here.

[TheFullHouse]

Mike was able to get him out for a walk and he perked up for that. When he came back in it was time for his meds so I put his pills in a tablespoon of Wellness Beef and he scarfed it right up. I gave him his nausea meds and at 5:30 I will offer him dinner. I've cooked up some hamburger and rice for him and got some cheerio's to toss in there too. If he eats it I will cook every single day for him if that's what it takes to get us through this. His blood pressure meds are starting to work so I don't want him to give up now!

 

I still plan on talking to the vet tomorrow morning. I've been researching the other two options for K/D food and it seems as if the only place I may be able to get it is at a local vet's office, I know my vet doesn't carry anything but K/D but they may know where I can get Royal Canin or Purina. If my only option is to cook for him, then cook I shall.

 

Anyone have a good recipe for vegetable soup? I thought about canned but it has so much salt in it and he's on low sodium. I thought mixing the rice with vegetable soup and a little hamburger or chicken might be good.

[Batmom]

Quick soup for doggies -- any or all of: bag of frozen spinach, some squash (summer or acorn/butternut type), carrot, tart apple, green beans, one or two chicken livers if you have any, tablespoon or two of molasses or honey ..... Can also add a little barley, potato, and/or pasta if you want it to be more substantial. Everybody here has loved broccoli as well but I usually leave that separate in case of picky eaters.

 

For Batman in the past and for doggies now, I cook a big batch of their meat/egg mix (and sometimes rice/oatmeal/barley as well) every week or ten days, put 4-5 days worth of meals in the fridge and freeze the rest in packages of 1-2 meals each. Hoping you won't have to do that but if that turns out to be what he needs, it's not as irritating as it sounds. If grammy and I ate differently I'd probably just cook dog meals along with our own.

[TheFullHouse]

Thanks Jey!

[Hubcitypam]

Judy - Campbells make 3 VERY low sodium soups - chicken broth, chicken noodle and cream of mushroom. They used to have split pea in that line, which I loved. Maybe the chicken noodle might work if you can find it? They also have vegetable in the Healthy Request line with 40% less sodium than regular.

[EllenEveBaz]

Just sending Bon appetite, Bullitt!

Edited February 10, 2013 by EllenEveBaz