How Long Do You Wait To Treat Dog After Bad Behaviour?

[brianamac]

My husband and I keep valuables off low shelves as we know our boy is prone to steal. However, we still keep silly objects of no value around within reach. He doesn't take stuff if we are around or watching, which we usually are.

Tonight I was in the computer room and my husband was in bed. Boo stole an empty wood cigar box of the shelf and was chewing on it on the couch. I came out and we had a face off: I said 'NO!' and he would growl. "No!" again and he would growl again. I know better than to take it away as he will snap at me. We did the 'no'/'growl' back and forth until I finally told him to 'go crate', where he sleeps (it was pretty much bed time for him anyways). He went immediately.

I crated him, but then assumed he probably needed to chew or something, so I gave him a kong stuffed with kibble and plugged with peanut butter so he has a toy, since he clearly was bored or needed to chew.

But I am wondering.... did I just reward him for growling?

[FountainLady]

Next time - call him off of the couch with a filled kong and "trade" him for the item you don't want him to be chewing. It is better to re-direct a dog to desired behavior than to punish him for a bad one.

 

In order to effectively stop a behavior (like grabbing an item he shouldn't have) - you need to give the verbal cue "No" when he picks the item up. He may not have known WHY you were disciplining him. You know you were telling him No for the Cigar box, but he may not have related it at all to the cigar box he had carried on to the couch earlier.

 

Unless you catch him in the act of taking it - it is hard for him to know why he is being scolded.

[greytpups]

Next time - call him off of the couch with a filled kong and "trade" him for the item you don't want him to be chewing. It is better to re-direct a dog to desired behavior than to punish him for a bad one.

 

In order to effectively stop a behavior (like grabbing an item he shouldn't have) - you need to give the verbal cue "No" when he picks the item up. He may not have known WHY you were disciplining him. You know you were telling him No for the Cigar box, but he may not have related it at all to the cigar box he had carried on to the couch earlier.

 

Unless you catch him in the act of taking it - it is hard for him to know why he is being scolded.

 

I agree, you need to reprimand at the moment he does it, if not, he won't know what you are referring to. Dogs don't learn by being punished rather they learn by teaching them what behaviours you want from them. Dogs live in the moment so he probably associates the treat with going into the crate, something you asked him to do so he was rewarded.

Edited September 14, 2012 by greytpups

[philospher77]

And, by keeping some things that he CAN have within reach, and (apparently) leaving other things that he CAN'T have within reach, you are sending him very mixed messages. If there were other things at the same level as the cigar box, he has no reason to understand that those are ok, and the box isn't.

 

But, as others have said, you get the kong, tell him something like "Trade", and offer it to him in such a way that he has to physically move away from the box. If it's on the left side of him, offer the kong on the right. Or off the sofa. Then you quietly and calmly pick up the No item, and go on with life. If you offer the higher-value item close to the item you want, you can wind up with an issue since he now has two items to guard close to each other.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Are you afraid of your hound? From your post you say you "know" he will snap at you. I may be reading more than is here, but it might be a situation where he has growled and snapped at you in the past and you are now afraid of him. If you are afraid of him, you need to do some obedience training, hand feeding and recall training. This will enhance your relationship with him and probably help to work out the situations where he thinks he can get away with growling at you. Instead of confrontation, try training and trust building. And by all means, try to get the things he cant have out of his reach so there wont be a repeat of this situation.

 

Chad

Edited September 14, 2012 by Greyt_dog_lover

[GeorgeofNE]

I don't think a crate should be used as punishment--and I certainly wouldn't feel I had to give my dog a Kong if I did crate him for a little bit AS punishment!

 

Terribly mixed messages you gave him.

 

Next time hand him a dog biscuit, take whatever he has away, and move on!

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

I wouldn't consider growling a "bad" behavior. Guarding objects is an undesirable behavior. You need to work on trading up with your dog, so he'll give up items you don't want him to have in the future. Growling shouldn't be punished, or you might end up with a dog that moves to a stronger warning, snapping or biting, when he feels threatened.

[silverfish]

I wouldn't consider growling a "bad" behavior. Guarding objects is an undesirable behavior. You need to work on trading up with your dog, so he'll give up items you don't want him to have in the future. Growling shouldn't be punished, or you might end up with a dog that moves to a stronger warning, snapping or biting, when he feels threatened.

 

Yes, this is VERY important to understand. You do not want your dog to miss out the growling and go straight to snapping!

 

Also, as someone said earlier, he may not have known why you were punishing him if he'd been chewing on the box for more than a few seconds. Punishment needs to be immediate for dogs to understand and learn from it.

 

I don't quite understand why you are doing the back and forth 'No'/growl thing. If he growls at you when you tell him 'no', he probably feels threatened and is responding to that. Do you stare at him with a grim face, perhaps move your face close to him? All threats in 'dogspeak'. You probably have a stiff body posture, too, possible with your head held low - this equates with a dog coming into the attack. Yes, you're giving him mixed messages, and you would probably find a book on dog social signals and normal behaviour and body language very useful. Try Stanley Coren's 'How to speak dog'.

 

So, a dog can't equate a punishment after the event with what he just did. Neither can he equate treating with being told off if it happens a little while afterwards. When we're training a dog to walk nicely on the lead and ignore/fail to respond badly to other dogs, we treat as soon as they so much as flick a glance towards us in response to a verbal command like 'Look at me!' We're not rewarding them for pulling, or for being hostile to the other dog, we're rewarding them for that one instant of good behaviour. So, in this case, I'd be telling him 'good dog' for jumping off the couch in response to being told, even if it was the third time of telling.

[RedHead]

To me crating for bad behaviour is like sending a kid to their room or for a time out. This may work with kids, but dogs don't have the ability to sit there and "think" about what they have just done. In the animal world any consequences are taken care of immediately and then things move on.

 

I think perhaps doing some training with trading up would be a good idea. You can teach him a drop command and use something of higher value to trade up with.

[brianamac]

Thanks for the good advice. Getting him to trade up for a higher value item certainly seems like the best option.

When I see my dog in the midst of something he isn't supposed to be doing, 'no' is a fairly automatic response. I guess I didn't think about the fact that 'no' should have been for taking the item in the first place, not for chewing it as it's true he does not differentiate between that and other items he is allowed to chew.

At least his 'living in the moment' mindset means that while he did not understand why I said no, he probably associated being given a kong with the fact that he went to his crate when I asked.

Good to know, thanks.

[silverfish]

 

At least his 'living in the moment' mindset means that while he did not understand why I said no, he probably associated being given a kong with the fact that he went to his crate when I asked.

Good to know, thanks.

 

Exactly! They really do live largely in the moment.

[cleptogrey]

interesting, i often trade up but when i repremand it's usually the object that gets the repremand....and the dog understands that ie: cigar box is BAD! it may sound confusing to us humans, but the dogs get it. your letting them know that that's off limits.(when they pee on the floor it's "bad pee" and the floor is hit. my dogs all watched in amazement and never wanted to get involded w/ that bad thing again )

 

try to put out a bin full of "good" dog toys- marrow bones,hoofs , things that are "safe to chew on" and some toys. encourage him to "take" from the bin.

 

as to the couch...a dog should be (imho)invited up- it's your couch. you can easliy make a scat mat out of the plastic runners that home depot and hardware stores sell for carpets. cut it to size and flip it over- the sharp bumps on the back are uncomfortable to most greys. then when you want him up, you invite. your the pack leader, it's your house!

[Guest Jacks_Human]

interesting, i often trade up but when i repremand it's usually the object that gets the repremand....and the dog understands that ie: cigar box is BAD! it may sound confusing to us humans, but the dogs get it. your letting them know that that's off limits.(when they pee on the floor it's "bad pee" and the floor is hit. my dogs all watched in amazement and never wanted to get involded w/ that bad thing again )

It's super important to intervene IMMEDIATELY and say a firm 'NO', then remove the stolen object (never had to do this with Jack, but my previous dog was a chewer). With Jack, on the occasions he's acted up, I interrupt the behaviour with a firm 'NO. LEAVE IT' or 'NO. BAD', then ignore him for about 15 minutes, then we're back to normal. With Jack I had to be careful when I first got him, as his past experiences with an abusive handler made him particularly sensitive. But this technique got my point across without scaring him.

 

try to put out a bin full of "good" dog toys- marrow bones,hoofs , things that are "safe to chew on" and some toys. encourage him to "take" from the bin.

I would go for a 'preemptive strike' and if Jack was looking for a toy, I'd offer him a toy or bone. He now knows to do to his toy basket if he wants to munch on something, or bring me a toy to play fetch with.

 

as to the couch...a dog should be (imho)invited up- it's your couch. you can easliy make a scat mat out of the plastic runners that home depot and hardware stores sell for carpets. cut it to size and flip it over- the sharp bumps on the back are uncomfortable to most greys. then when you want him up, you invite. your the pack leader, it's your house!

IMHO if you're the pack leader, it's your rules. Jack knows a command to hop up and cuddle with me, and he knows that he can hop up if his blankie is on the furniture. But again, you need to be the big dog and show your hound what is OK. If you're a calm-but-assertive pack leader, growling should be minimal, and should be regarded as a sign something is wrong (ie, the dog feels disturbed/threatened/in pain).

[Guest bluefiggie]

I don't know how I feel about the trading up idea. I think it has potentail but may also be sending mixed signals. My Lola was a chewer and I used a stern "No" and when she would stare at me with this look of complete innocence (almost every time) I repeated myself and she would sulk off. I usually just kind of ignored her for several minutes afterward, I would typically go in a different room and went back and acted like nothing happened. Eventually she stopped chewing.

 

The thing that bothers me the most about your situation is it seems like there may be some confusion on who is the alpha dog in your house. You might try some training exercises that support your role as the alpha. As a child/teenager we had a family german shephard who was very aggressive towards adults trying to wake up the kids. One of my older sisters backed down everytime she growl/snapped at her. I on the other hand, honestly believed that she wouldn't actually bite me, so I reached in to wake up my brother and she snapped and bit me on the hand (didn't break skin but certainly left a dent). I immediatley stood over her and yelled NO, she cowered and eventually walked away. never once did she growl at me again. I DO NOT recommend my method but in the end it was an alpha issue.

 

Good luck!!

[cleptogrey]

i mentioned trading up since i do know of many kind hearted dogs who turn into cujo when an object is taken from them. why go there? but i did omit the timing of the repremand to the object...it's after the trade. you don't want to have the slightest hint of a "tug of war"scenario in that type of situation, thus the trade.

 

bluefiggie: your childhood interevention w/ the shepard is priceless!

[JJNg]

Growling is a form of communication, as well as an emotional/stress response. There is no need to scold or punish a dog for growling. And you really don't need to worry about 'rewarding' growling either. If the dog has already been pushed to the point of growling, that particular interaction isn't the best time to do much training, and you just have to make the best of a bad situation. What's more important is to work on changing the underlying association and emotion that made the dog feel the need to growl in the first place.

 

Here's an interesting video about why you really don't need to worry about rewarding aggressive behavior as long as you change the underlying emotion:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI13v9JgJu0

 

I also don't think 'alpha' has anything to do with this. It's simply about setting guidelines and helping the dog learn what objects are and aren't appropriate for him to take and chew on. A dog who resource guards is usually just insecure and worried about losing a desired object, not trying to be alpha.

 

And bluefiggie - I'm glad that childhood interaction with your shepherd worked out well. But as you mentioned yourself, not a method I'd recommend. A dog with less bite inhibition could have done severe damage, and a dog with a less understanding family (especially when many people nowadays don't tolerate anything that hints at aggression) might have lost her home. I also disagree about it being an "alpha issue". Sounds like she was protective of the kids and needed to be taught that this wasn't necessary or acceptable. I suppose one way to do this was through intimidation, but more positive methods would have worked too.

[silverfish]

That's a great video, Jennifer - I've seen it before, but it doesn't hurt to see it again!

[Guest Giselle]

The thing that bothers me the most about your situation is it seems like there may be some confusion on who is the alpha dog in your house. You might try some training exercises that support your role as the alpha. As a child/teenager we had a family german shephard who was very aggressive towards adults trying to wake up the kids. One of my older sisters backed down everytime she growl/snapped at her. I on the other hand, honestly believed that she wouldn't actually bite me, so I reached in to wake up my brother and she snapped and bit me on the hand (didn't break skin but certainly left a dent). I immediatley stood over her and yelled NO, she cowered and eventually walked away. never once did she growl at me again. I DO NOT recommend my method but in the end it was an alpha issue.

No such thing as dog "packs" and no such thing as alpha. Field studies of free-ranging DOMESTIC DOGS (not captive wolf packs, which was how original ethologists came up with the misunderstood concept of "alphas") show that domestic dogs prefer to live 1) mostly alone 2) sometimes, in pairs 3) or, RARELY, in small groups. No such thing as natural domestic dog packs, and they do not use "alphas" to guide their behaviors. Also, dominance is unrelated to social rank. It is about priority of access to resources, and it is not a personality. Moreover, true dominance in social settings is marked by the "subordinate" animal deferring or withdrawing from the situation, rather than the "dominant" animal displaying hostile or aggressive behaviors. It is not an issue of being "alpha", whatever the heck that means to people these days.

 

The reason your punishment worked was because it was severe enough to cause a traumatic moment for that animal. Through learning theory, we know that aversive consequences reduce the likelihood of a behavior occurring again. Your punishment was extremely aversive, so the animal stopped producing that behavior. It's simple learning theory. The reason "Trade Up" works is because you're actually teaching a behavior of the animal giving up objects. If you reinforce and practice this behavior a lot, learning theory says: Positive consequences will result in strengthened behaviors. So, the next time your dog has something in his mouth and you say "Trade", he WILL give it up. In the end, you'll have a better relationship, no growling, and reduced risk of injury to you. Now, isn't that the better, more efficient, humane thing to do?

[NeylasMom]

Thanks for the good advice. Getting him to trade up for a higher value item certainly seems like the best option.

When I see my dog in the midst of something he isn't supposed to be doing, 'no' is a fairly automatic response. I guess I didn't think about the fact that 'no' should have been for taking the item in the first place, not for chewing it as it's true he does not differentiate between that and other items he is allowed to chew.

At least his 'living in the moment' mindset means that while he did not understand why I said no, he probably associated being given a kong with the fact that he went to his crate when I asked.

Good to know, thanks.

Yes, the reward is associated with teh behavior immediately preceeding it. And I think you were smart to realize that he needed something to chew on. Perhaps leaving more safe chew items around the house in general, or keeping a selection of interesting ones hidden and giving him a different one each evening (or whenever he might be prone to go looking for something to get into) would also help prevent the behavior. That's in addition to putting things that will be tempting out of reach if you can't monitor him until he learns what is and is not a chew toy.

 

I also want to point out the major thing that seems to be missed with dogs and resource guarding. In the dog world, when a dog has an item in his proximity (depending on the dogs involved, this distance can vary), but especially in his possession (being held under paws or especially in his mouth) that item is his at that moment. If he drops it and walks away and another dog comes and picks it up, it's no longer his at that moment. But while he has it, it's his, and it would be completely rude and improper behavior for another dog to try to take it away from him. Basically, when your dog growls at you, he's doing what's completely acceptable NORMAL behavior in the dog world. Except we're humans and we think dogs should live by human rules, often without bothering to gently teach them what those human rules are. So I would do 2 things - I would occasionally toss treats to him when he has a high value item and then walk away so that your presence near him when he has something good isn't threatening (oh no, here she comes, she's going to try to take this away), but instead is rewarding (oh goodie, here she comes, going to get an extra treat, yay me). Two, work on a "give" cue so that when you do need to take something away, he has already learned to happily drop it because he's going to get something really awesome and *almost always* when he does, he gets it back.

 

Here's a great article on how to teach the "give" cue.

How to teach a "leave it" cue

And a longer article on resource guarding in general from my dog behavior hero, Pat Miller

[brianamac]

Thanks for those articles, very helpful! Boo and I will work on those.

[sobesmom]

Thanks for the good advice. Getting him to trade up for a higher value item certainly seems like the best option.

When I see my dog in the midst of something he isn't supposed to be doing, 'no' is a fairly automatic response. I guess I didn't think about the fact that 'no' should have been for taking the item in the first place, not for chewing it as it's true he does not differentiate between that and other items he is allowed to chew.

At least his 'living in the moment' mindset means that while he did not understand why I said no, he probably associated being given a kong with the fact that he went to his crate when I asked.

Good to know, thanks.

 

Good for you for asking the question - and listening to the advice given. You're going to to fabulous with this because you're open to learning.

 

I agree with the others - discipline "NO" is for the moment the bad act occurs - taking the box. If you didn't catch it at that moment - you've lost your chance to teach not taking things. You'll have to wait for the next time he grabs something, catch him in the act, and correct in that moment.

 

I also totally agree with the "trade" concept. If he's got somthing, and you want him to give it up - you have to trade for it. The "stealing" thing is totally forgotten so "no" makes no sense. These are now separate things in his mind.

 

As far as knowing he will snap if you try to take something from him - I'd suggest getting him off the couch. That's a privelaged spot - and he hasn't earned it yet. Snap on a leash, and take him off calmly.

 

And - crating as a time-out is a bad idea. A crate is supposed to be a safe, comfort zone for dogs that need it, or a training tool for the time it's needed, or a place for medical recovery. It should NEVER be a punishment.