Osteo Hounds -- Is Gable Dodge, Wigwam Wag Or Hb's Commander In

[Batmom]

I wouldn't get hung up on bloodlines at this point. At least wait until the article is published and see what it says.

 

Many genetic defects aren't inherited -- they're acquired. and the cause is often a mystery. For another, a gene may be associated with a disorder but not necessarily cause it -- it may be that 99.9% of greyhounds who get osteosarcoma have gene xyz, but only 20% of greyhounds who have gene xyz get osteosarcoma.

[Guest CFPWonder]

I lost my 12 year old girl, Cajun Fine Point, to osteo in February. She had none of those in her lineage. However, my 4 year old girl, Superior Wonder, has HB's Commander in hers.

[PrairieProf]

I know Shelley has a pretty strong sense of what the osteo lines are, at least informally, even if this is not verifiable. And alas I know she clearly regards Gable Dodge as one of them; I can't speak for the others. And yeah, he's Beth's maternal grandsire. I've been feeling pretty crappy lately about that.

[greyhoundlady]

I lost my Saber (Yopon Dodger) last year to osteo. He was almost 10. He had both Gable Dodge and Wigwam Wag in his direct line. I also lost Cheyenne (Dewey Wild N Free) last year - she was 10, but it was her heart, not osteo, and did not have Gable Dodge or Wigwam Wag in her line. It was an extremely painful year for me.

 

I now have Sambuca (GV Leon) who just turned 3. He has Gable Dodge in his line. I didn't realize there was this connection with cancer and Gable and Wigwam, but it makes no difference to me. I guess the info helps us keep an eye out, but I know we all love our hounds no matter what their relatives pass on to them. This is an interesting investigation, but scary.

[dmdsmoxie]

 

I now have Sambuca (GV Leon) who just turned 3. He has Gable Dodge in his line. I didn't realize there was this connection with cancer and Gable and Wigwam,

 

There isn't. That was just someones opinion.

 

I would be shocked if the study shows the connection to osteo started with a dog in the last 20 years. It may be passed through one or more of them because if you look at the 12 generation double ansestors of most dogs you will find dogs like Mixed Harmony, Rural Rube, Larry of Waterhall*, Never Roll and Upsidedown, to name a few, in most of your pups. Some of these dogs are so far back in the pedigree that they appear over 100 times in the pedigree.

[Guest cashie]

Cash (Cash It In) has Wigwam too.

[HopeForHounds]

I now have Sambuca (GV Leon) who just turned 3. He has Gable Dodge in his line. I didn't realize there was this connection with cancer and Gable and Wigwam,

 

There isn't. That was just someones opinion.

 

I would be shocked if the study shows the connection to osteo started with a dog in the last 20 years. It may be passed through one or more of them because if you look at the 12 generation double ansestors of most dogs you will find dogs like Mixed Harmony, Rural Rube, Larry of Waterhall*, Never Roll and Upsidedown, to name a few, in most of your pups. Some of these dogs are so far back in the pedigree that they appear over 100 times in the pedigree.

 

That's how I feel. Plus I think Batmom has it right the gene tells us a bit of the picture, but not necessarily the whole story. It's a start though. My own thoughts are that environment plays as big a factor as bloodlines. It's true in humans (or why do they stop me eating all the good stuff?) so why wouldn't it be the same for animals?

[TheFullHouse]

You could drive yourself crazy trying to find a dog that has none of these dogs in their lineage and you could still get a dog that comes down with osteo. I've lost 5 and none of them to osteo (knocking on wood here). Granted two sets were from the same litter. Cancer happens, in all forms, to all breeds.

[Guest snakes]

FedX does have MB's commander in his lineage, howoever so does his sister/littermate who does not have osteo.

 

Although given that HB's commander has >3000pups one of which was Molotov who has >7000 pups, our chances were pretty high of having that lineage.....

[Guest PhillyPups]

If Gable Dodge is in the lines, you will always have Wigwam Wag, as Wigwam Wag is Gable Dodge's sire.

 

One fear I have of this "discussion" is the feeling if I saw it on the internet it must be true (vs speculstion which this is) and really nice hounds with those lines may be turned down by potential adopters for fear of the unknown maybe happening someday. Personally, I usually don't look at the lines until I know the dog is coming home, but that is me. I adopt based on the dog, not the lines.

[RaineysMom]

One fear I have of this "discussion" is the feeling if I saw it on the internet it must be true (vs speculstion which this is) and really nice hounds with those lines may be turned down by potential adopters for fear of the unknown maybe happening someday. Personally, I usually don't look at the lines until I know the dog is coming home, but that is me. I adopt based on the dog, not the lines.

 

I certainly do not mean to cause anything of the sort to happen I was just curious, I've always wondered if there was a correlation, that's all. Having Gable Dodge in their lineage is actually a selling point for me, he's Larry's Grandad.

 

I'll ask the mods to delete the thread.

 

sorry, everyone.

Edited July 22, 2012 by RaineysMom

[Guest OPointyDog]

You certainly can drive yourself crazy thinking about these things. My mother had aggressive breast cancer at age 34, and so I think about the role of genetics and the environment in cancer a lot. I'm a biologist (but not a geneticist) so my understanding of the genetics of cancer is pretty rudimentary, but from what I've seen, it's a pretty complex mix of genes and the environment (both inside the body and outside). You do the best you can with the information you have. Plus I have genes from my father's side of the family that may mix in complex ways with genes from my mother. A genetic counselor will remind you that in most cases, it's impossible to predict cancer due to all the factors involved.

 

I have been curious to see if I could find out the life spans of our grey's ancenstors and what they died from. I wish Greyhound Data would put the death dates on, but I guess it's too hard to follow them after they retire? HB Commander is our dog's great-grandfather (she's a DK's Prime Time pup) and he died at age 7 from an aneurism. Molotov, HB's son and our dog's grandfather, had nearly 9000 offspring! Then those dogs went on to have thousands and thousands more. So many, many dogs will have him in their line. If a small percentage of them get osteo, that number may seem exaggerated just because of the large number of dogs in that bloodline.

[robinw]

One fear I have of this "discussion" is the feeling if I saw it on the internet it must be true (vs speculstion which this is) and really nice hounds with those lines may be turned down by potential adopters for fear of the unknown maybe happening someday. Personally, I usually don't look at the lines until I know the dog is coming home, but that is me. I adopt based on the dog, not the lines.

 

I certainly do not mean to cause anything of the sort to happen I was just curious, I've always wondered if there was a correlation, that's all. Having Gable Dodge in their lineage is actually a selling point for me, he's Larry's Grandad.

 

I'll ask the mods to delete the thread.

 

sorry, everyone.

Don't do that, Kim. This is an interesting thread.

[RaineysMom]

One fear I have of this "discussion" is the feeling if I saw it on the internet it must be true (vs speculstion which this is) and really nice hounds with those lines may be turned down by potential adopters for fear of the unknown maybe happening someday. Personally, I usually don't look at the lines until I know the dog is coming home, but that is me. I adopt based on the dog, not the lines.

 

I certainly do not mean to cause anything of the sort to happen I was just curious, I've always wondered if there was a correlation, that's all. Having Gable Dodge in their lineage is actually a selling point for me, he's Larry's Grandad.

 

I'll ask the mods to delete the thread.

 

sorry, everyone.

Don't do that, Kim. This is an interesting thread.

 

already requested. I did not mean to upset anyone.

[dmdsmoxie]

I wouldn't ask to have the thread deleted.

[Batmom]

Kim, nothing wrong with your thread at all, for a large number of reasons.

 

Hugs to you and Bruce and Nube.

[Yamaha_gurl]

Makes no difference here...even if say it was Gable that has the osteo gene, I'd still adopt a Gable dog. It's kind of like some people who adopt a senior, they know time is limited, but still want to give that grey a loving home...I'd do the same with a osteo pup.

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

I wouldn't worry too much. Most American hounds have those dogs behind them. The breed would almost die out if we stopped breeding any dog with those dogs behind them.

[Guest PhillyPups]

Kim,

 

That certainly was not my intent. Just a reminder to those that are looking into adoption, speculation v. fact.

 

Sorry if my comment was misconstrued.

[winnie]

We lost our Faye Oops to osteo last December. HB Commander was her grand-sire on her dams side.

[fourofem]

Hb's Commander was Lewis' great granddaddy on momma's side. All three of those dogs were very prolific so not surprising there are so many with the one of them somewhere in their lineage. Of the six I've adopted, except for Lizzie and Hitchie, have one of the three as a relative.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Out of curiosity--why the concern about HB's Commander? He died of an aneurysm (rather than cancer). And he's not in the Wigwam Wag/Gable Dodge line.

 

My Sam's a Wigwam Wag descendant, but through Dodge's elder half-brother, Gable Killer. Sam is 12 and is--knock wood--osteo-free (whatever else he's got going on). My Silver (7 years old) is Gable Dodge's granddaughter.

 

(If I were a race-caller at a track running Wigwam Wag, I'd have to quit my job. It takes me three tries to get that name right--every time. )

[Guest patterpaws]

I wouldn't want the thread to be deleted either, this is an interesting conversation. I've been thinking about it a lot lately, anyway.

 

Its going to be hard for me to justify adopting another greyhound in the future, now that I know how prone they are to osteo and how expensive it is to treat. I knew they were prone before, but I guess I hadn't thought of it that much, I just hoped it would never happen. If I ever adopt another, I will have to do so with the knowledge that I may have to spend over $15,000 once they get to age 7-12. If I win the lotto then it won't be an issue.

 

Its interesting to talk about how osteo may have originated, even though I know its speculation.

 

Kind of reminds me of this documentary, about other purebred dogs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLCDA6E84DA5096185&feature=player_embedded&v=3O0l0f50AAk

 

(thats part 1, the rest is also on youtube)

 

It does seem to me that greyhounds are much healthier than other purebred dogs, besides this horrible osteo. I always guessed it was because they were bred for performance and not exaggerated appearances.

Edited July 22, 2012 by patterpaws

[Guest patterpaws]

I started looking more and found that guy too. It can't be Tristan unless there was some mistake in the ear tatoos. One tattoo is illegible to me, but the other is 33A. So that means he was born March of 2003, right? Also the Heritage online is listed as black instead of brindle? Hrmm..

 

Darn that Wigwam!!!!!

 

edit: Now I'm really curious. Do brindles look black when they are born? maybe he was marked black as a puppy? Of the dogs in his lineage with photos on the site, all but one is brindle just like him. If this is actually Tristan, he's almost a year older than I thought he was....

 

You are right 33 is March of 2003 and a brindle pup is brindle when born so that isn't your pup.

 

Hrm. So if he isn't showing up in the database, that means he flunked out of training and didn't race?

[RaineysMom]

I wouldn't want the thread to be deleted either, this is an interesting conversation. I've been thinking about it a lot lately, anyway.

 

Its going to be hard for me to justify adopting another greyhound in the future, now that I know how prone they are to osteo and how expensive it is to treat. I knew they were prone before, but I guess I hadn't thought of it that much, I just hoped it would never happen. If I ever adopt another, I will have to do so with the knowledge that I may have to spend over $15,000 once they get to age 7-12. If I win the lotto then it won't be an issue.

 

It does seem to me that greyhounds are much healthier than other purebred dogs, besides this horrible osteo. I always guessed it was because they were bred for performance and not exaggerated appearances.

 

this is why this might be a good idea to delete this thread. It certainly was not intended to scare off adoptions or potential adoptees :(

 

but honestly, greyhound or not, having a dog CAN be a potential huge investment healthwise. We spent thousands on our German Shorthaired Pointer Remy trying to "fix" his agression issues (tests, behaivorists, etc.). On the other side, our other 2 non-gh (lab and schipperke) were realtively healthy with the exception of a couple small things. In fact, our schipperke ended up with a brain tumor that had we wanted to do an MRI, would have cost thousands just for that test (we opted to let him go at 12.5). Rainey, our first greyhound, cost us THOUSANDS between bloat surgery and then her epilepsy -- MRI, numerous vet visits, specialists, expensive medication. And none of it to do with cancer. Friends of ours have a rescued lab (saw him last night) with HORRIBLE allergies -- an entire inch around his eyes are inflammed and RAW -- it's horrible. They've spent thousands trying to alleviate it and commented last night the next step is to try the REALLY expensive medication ($500 month).

 

I remember not long after adopting Rainey, I came here to H&M and was terrified by all the cancer I saw. I posted asking about it, and someone made the comment that it really is "skewed" to look like they all get cancer (or a lot) because even though many people post about it here, how many thousands of others do not have it and are fine (and you don't see those posts!). It just looks like a lot, from that perspective.

 

I guess my point is, ANY breed of dog can have potential $$$$ health issues. The only way to be sure not to have issues is to never adopt ANY dog again...and for us, that will never be an option.

 

I hope my posting this doesn't dissuade you from adopting another of these wonderful hounds -- even at the risk for cancer, I'd never, EVER get another breed of dog. EVER. As painful as it is to someday lose them (and potentially expensive if they have health issues!), the love and happiness I get from them outweighs so hugely, and it always will.

 

I started looking more and found that guy too. It can't be Tristan unless there was some mistake in the ear tatoos. One tattoo is illegible to me, but the other is 33A. So that means he was born March of 2003, right? Also the Heritage online is listed as black instead of brindle? Hrmm..

 

Darn that Wigwam!!!!!

 

edit: Now I'm really curious. Do brindles look black when they are born? maybe he was marked black as a puppy? Of the dogs in his lineage with photos on the site, all but one is brindle just like him. If this is actually Tristan, he's almost a year older than I thought he was....

 

You are right 33 is March of 2003 and a brindle pup is brindle when born so that isn't your pup.

 

Hrm. So if he isn't showing up in the database, that means he flunked out of training and didn't race?

 

is there any way to read some of his litter #? (the other ear). Sometimes holding a flashlight behind it helps.

Edited July 22, 2012 by RaineysMom