When To Say "enough Is Enough?" (Aggression)

[cello]

SO sorry! I had read two similar posts and mixed them up!! My apologies!

Edited July 5, 2012 by cello

[vjgrey]

Am I missing where the OP said they have a child? I see references to a visiting niece and nephew, which isn't quite the same thing.

[Guest colander_girl]

Just want to clarify -- it is just me, my husband, and our two greyhounds. We have no children (yet), but have young neices and nephews who live nearby and visit on occasion. If we did have children living with us our boy would have been returned after the first serious incident*.

 

ETA: Or we would have been much more selective in adopting a child-safe dog!

Edited July 5, 2012 by colander_girl

[Guest colander_girl]

We just returned from seeing the vet. Unfortunately the lab lost his blood sample so we didn't get results of the thyroid test, but he had another sample drawn so we should hear about that next week. After spending a good deal of time talking with the vet, she believes his problem is not behavioral, but more likely neurological. She also agrees with our decision to return him. I mentioned temperal lobe epilepsy but she agrees that it is probably not that since he doesn't flip out randomly when not being interacted with.

 

I went back through my old e-mails from when we first adopted him, and apparently he was treated for a high Babesia titer before we adopted him. They said he didn't necessarily have it, but his immune system had been exposed to it.

[Guest june]

So sorry. I know how hard this is for you.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I have to wonder about all the quick responses of "return him to the group". I truly hope the OP's group has the resources and open-mindedness to give this dog a fair assessment and another chance, but I don't feel that anything I wrote in my previous post was unfair, just realistic. I think it's only fair that someone deciding to return a dog like this should be aware that there may be a good chance the dog will end up being euthanized. For those of you who are involved with greyhound groups, can you honestly say that if a dog with such a severe history of aggressive attacks was returned to your group that 1) you'd have someone willing and able to foster and work with him and 2) he'd be considered a good candidate to be made available for adoption even if he did well in a foster home?

 

Having worked in an adoption group, handling returns exactly like this one, it is best that this dog be placed into another environment. Something here is not working. The dog is not happy, the people are not happy, the people no longer trust the dog. Children may not live in the home, but they visit, and have been bitten and snapped at already. It is better to move the dog now before a more serious incident occurs and someone is seriously injured, then the dog will have a severe bite history following it forever, and may or may not be adoptable at that point (depends on local animal laws regarding severe bites on humans, that type of thing). And yes, I have placed dogs exactly like this one.

 

It is hard to tell on the internet, not having witnessed this dog in person, but the description sounds like a space aggressive dog with fear issues and very specific triggers. It does not sound like a seizure disorder to me. Some dogs give plenty of growl warning, but for some dogs the only warning may be a tensing of the body and a look in their eye. It is subtle, but it is there. However I would not expect children or visitors to pick up on the signs, some people are looking for a more obvious warning from the dog, or for the dog to retreat when uncomfortable. Some dogs do retreat, but some react. There are people out there that will adopt them, so he deserves a chance back with the group.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[Guest Gemma]

I'm so sorry things have not worked out. I do believe, however, that you are doing the right thing by returning him to the group. There are people in the adoption world who willingly take on dogs with a bite history, and many of them are absolute miracle workers, IMO.

 

It's not the exact same history of severe biting but our second to last foster had bitten (and drawn blood) in both his previous homes. He had a history of going after men and children when they were close to him but not necessarily directly interacting. By the time he came to us, he had already down graded to an inhibited bite that didn't even leave a mark. I recognised that his issues (fear based primarily complicated by a thyroid disorder) were more than I had the experience to handle. Someone in my group reached out to Forever Homes based in NY, and we moved him to one of their foster homes. The change in environment, and moving into a stable pack, did him a world of good; no more biting. He was adopted in March by a grey savvy woman who knows his history and is still in love with him.

 

Not every dog who bites can have such a happy ending, of course, but it's up to us to try. You have done everything within your power; it's best to let someone else have a go now.

[Guest barkdogs]

Just wanted to say I am sorry, and I admire your commitment to doing the best you can for your dog. I can't imagine what it must be like to face such decisions about a beloved dog (and obviously, you love him, or you wouldn't be struggling so with coming to the best decision about his future) Best of luck to you and your boy.

[Guest colander_girl]

Just an update -- we won't be returning him to the adoption group on Saturday. His thyroid test results came back "low" (according to the vet -- I am not convinced he's hypothyroid) so we are going to keep him at least until we can get his thyroid figured out. I started another topic in the medical forum about his thyroid results.

 

Thanks again to everybody for the well-wishes! I'll keep you posted on any further developments.

[greyhead]

Just an update -- we won't be returning him to the adoption group on Saturday. His thyroid test results came back "low" (according to the vet -- I am not convinced he's hypothyroid) so we are going to keep him at least until we can get his thyroid figured out. I started another topic in the medical forum about his thyroid results.

 

Thanks again to everybody for the well-wishes! I'll keep you posted on any further developments.

Our first grey started showing what I'd call reactive aggression, mild seizures, and low stamina for walks a couple months after he came to our home. We did have a complete thyroid panel run and decided he was hypothyroid. (It was enough years and vets ago that I don't recall his original numbers. I'm sure his total and free T4's and free T3 were low, but I don't recall the TSH status. Since TSH is wrong 15-30% of the time anyway, that wouldn't have decided the outcome.) All those problems disappeared as soon as he started thyroid medicine. This can be a life-and-death issue for dogs, so I'd urge you not to bend over backwards in resisting a diagnosis of hypothyroidism, especially if the aggression has stopped since the medicine was started. (Our vet at that time had already put down two greyhounds for aggression, one of them her own, without ever testing for hypothyroidism. How sad is that?)

Edited July 12, 2012 by greyhead

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Just an update -- we won't be returning him to the adoption group on Saturday. His thyroid test results came back "low" (according to the vet -- I am not convinced he's hypothyroid) so we are going to keep him at least until we can get his thyroid figured out. I started another topic in the medical forum about his thyroid results.

 

Thanks again to everybody for the well-wishes! I'll keep you posted on any further developments.

Our first grey started showing what I'd call reactive aggression, mild seizures, and low stamina for walks a couple months after he came to our home. We did have a complete thyroid panel run and decided he was hypothyroid. (It was enough years and vets ago that I don't recall his original numbers. I'm sure his total and free T4's and free T3 were low, but I don't recall the TSH status. Since TSH is wrong 15-30% of the time anyway, that wouldn't have decided the outcome.) All those problems disappeared as soon as he started thyroid medicine. This can be a life-and-death issue for dogs, so I'd urge you not to bend over backwards in resisting a diagnosis of hypothyroidism, especially if the aggression has stopped since the medicine was started. (Our vet at that time had already put down two greyhounds for aggression, one of them her own, without ever testing for hypothyroidism. How sad is that?)

 

Thats a vet I would never use...

[greyhead]

Just an update -- we won't be returning him to the adoption group on Saturday. His thyroid test results came back "low" (according to the vet -- I am not convinced he's hypothyroid) so we are going to keep him at least until we can get his thyroid figured out. I started another topic in the medical forum about his thyroid results.

 

Thanks again to everybody for the well-wishes! I'll keep you posted on any further developments.

Our first grey started showing what I'd call reactive aggression, mild seizures, and low stamina for walks a couple months after he came to our home. We did have a complete thyroid panel run and decided he was hypothyroid. (It was enough years and vets ago that I don't recall his original numbers. I'm sure his total and free T4's and free T3 were low, but I don't recall the TSH status. Since TSH is wrong 15-30% of the time anyway, that wouldn't have decided the outcome.) All those problems disappeared as soon as he started thyroid medicine. This can be a life-and-death issue for dogs, so I'd urge you not to bend over backwards in resisting a diagnosis of hypothyroidism, especially if the aggression has stopped since the medicine was started. (Our vet at that time had already put down two greyhounds for aggression, one of them her own, without ever testing for hypothyroidism. How sad is that?)

 

Thats a vet I would never use...

To be clear, we left that practice shortly thereafter. (We had the thyroid tested by the practice's other vet anyway.) But the vet you would never use is one who put herself forward as the greyhound specialist of the practice. Believing that greyhounds are never hypothyroid became common among such vets back then. And now even when the complete panel is run, there's tremendous pressure to interpret the test numbers in very rigid ways. The wise doctor knows to "treat the patient, not the numbers."

[Guest colander_girl]

Just an update -- we won't be returning him to the adoption group on Saturday. His thyroid test results came back "low" (according to the vet -- I am not convinced he's hypothyroid) so we are going to keep him at least until we can get his thyroid figured out. I started another topic in the medical forum about his thyroid results.

 

Thanks again to everybody for the well-wishes! I'll keep you posted on any further developments.

Our first grey started showing what I'd call reactive aggression, mild seizures, and low stamina for walks a couple months after he came to our home. We did have a complete thyroid panel run and decided he was hypothyroid. (It was enough years and vets ago that I don't recall his original numbers. I'm sure his total and free T4's and free T3 were low, but I don't recall the TSH status. Since TSH is wrong 15-30% of the time anyway, that wouldn't have decided the outcome.) All those problems disappeared as soon as he started thyroid medicine. This can be a life-and-death issue for dogs, so I'd urge you not to bend over backwards in resisting a diagnosis of hypothyroidism, especially if the aggression has stopped since the medicine was started. (Our vet at that time had already put down two greyhounds for aggression, one of them her own, without ever testing for hypothyroidism. How sad is that?)

 

 

Well, I can't say the aggression has stopped since he's been on meds, but the episodes have been less frequent and almost always correspond with his T4 going back in the "low" range (or what my vet considers low). When he was first put on levothyroxine his mood definitely seemed better-- he was happier, bouncier, more puppy-like. Now he just seems like his normal self, apart from attacking me a couple of Saturdays ago.

 

I'm glad you had the other vet! :-)

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

I would NEVER put up with that. I don't think you've done wrong, and none of that is acceptable or normal for a Greyhound or ANY dog.

[Guest LilahMae]

This is the kind of thing that happened with my brothers dog he has a thyroid condition first of all I would try another vet they should be doing blood work on him don't ever put your face in his or hug on him or kiss him he is unpredictable also part of it may be sleep startle Before you go down and pet him clap and do something make sure he is awake and looking at you he could also sleep with his eyes opener best example I can think of is when you suddenly wake up and someone strange is their what would you do you would defend yourself that's basically what he is trying to do my brothers dog is much better now after being on his medication now the change should not be instant it will take 4 weeks please keep me updated on what you decide to do thank you

 

This is the kind of thing that happened with my brothers dog he has a thyroid condition first of all I would try another vet they should be doing blood work on him don't ever put your face in his or hug on him or kiss him he is unpredictable also part of it may be sleep startle Before you go down and pet him clap and do something make sure he is awake and looking at you he could also sleep with his eyes opener best example I can think of is when you suddenly wake up and someone strange is their what would you do you would defend yourself that's basically what he is trying to do my brothers dog is much better now after being on his medication now the change should not be instant it will take 4 weeks please keep me updated on what you decide to do thank you

[Guest Lovey_Hounds]

I just saw this and I am so sorry you have had to go through all of this. I currently have a dog who has bit and drawn blood on 2 family members in the house, she came to us very food aggressive and possession aggressive. she got me for the first time at 3 months old and put 8 punctures into my hand and i had to physically pry her off of me, we have had many episodes over and over again for the next 5 months and she spent a fair amount of time with a muzzle on the lower the damage level. We had a major blow out at 8 months old when she was counter surfing and trying to lick the toaster and I got her away from the toaster and verbally made her lay down she had seemed to have calmed down and I walked away to finish what i was doing and she chased after me and grabbed me by the thigh no puncture due to me turning quickly and using my knee to get her off of me. That was deal breaker for me then I put her basket muzzle back on her and screamed like i was crazy at her, telling her if she ever bit me again she that would be the end of her ( i never touched her during the whole yelling spree) she must have realized she pushed me too far and she dropped and went belly up ( she had never backed down so easily) and yelled at her to get to bed (her kennel) and she did i left her in there for a while until i calmed down.

We have since done so much work to work on the food aggression and possession issues, it has been a long hard journey and she has come very far in 3 1/2 years, I know she doesn't want to hurt us but we have learned how far we can push her before she reacts. At some points she would give the tiniest warning such as a eye movement or shoulder twitch and other times she would snarl and lunge. she has since learned that giving a proper easy to read warning get her farther than subtle warnings.

I will say we are so much closer to her after going through all of this with her, we know her boundaries and she understands what is acceptable and not.

 

We have gone from having bruises and punctures to me now being able to take a bully stick and any other food items out of her mouth with no issues ( she doesn't look impressed but sits there and lets us do it) we still do not bother her with raw hides and she gets those only in her kennel as that is the one thing that will set her off with little warning. Even after all of the issues we had with her I am glad to see she kept her biting incidents to just me and my husband (mostly due to us being so diligent with rules regarding her and guests in the house).

 

I hope you figure out what may be causing your boys issues and maybe you can get everything fixed up, just know if you can't there are people out there who are willing to take in a dog like yours and work with him. I know hard hard it is being attacked by your own dog in your own house, it makes you second guess things so much and you are a strong person standing by your dog and trying to figure out what is triggering his episodes there are a lot of people who would have got rid of him right away. even if things do not work out, you tried and did your best.

[Guest colander_girl]

Just wanted to update everyone -- we ended up returning him to the adoption group last Saturday, which I was not prepared for... it was pretty much the most heartbreaking thing I've had to go through. I miss him every minute of every day. Our girl is definitely not herself without him. I think she's just as depressed as I am. The adoption group's vet is very good so I hope he is able to help him.

 

Thank you all for your help and advice in this difficult time.

[JAJ2010]

I'm so sorry ((HUGS)) Sometimes doing the right thing is so hard

[Guest Gemma]

I'm so sorry. You did everything within your power. Your group likely has more resources available and will hopefully find a way to help/manage his behaviour.

 

I hope you will consider adopting again in future.

[NeylasMom]

I'm so sorry.

 

What changed? I thought you guys had decided to do additional testing before returning him. Totally understand if you don't want to share. Either way, hugs to you and your family. You've done quite a lot with this guy - I hope the group is able to help him.

[FiveRoooooers]

I'm so sorry. I know how difficult a decision that was, and how much you miss your boy. Right now is probably not the time but please keep your hearts open to adopting another greyhound at some point.

[Busderpuddle]

I know I am a little slow to respond but it sounds to me like you did everything possible to avoid this. Please don't beat yourself up. You did everything and more. I wish you the best and that you find comfort soon.

[Xan]

The behaviorist we had come out to work with us and our dog-aggressive guy, Pogo, strongly recommends any aggressive dog have a full health work-up, including a brain scan for tumors. She says owners are often surprised to learn their dog has a health issue at all.

 

This dog's occasional extreme viciousness does seem to follow a pattern (approached or handled while lying down, mostly), so maybe it's behavioral only, but it's so over the top, and inconsistent. I hope the group does get him checked for any health reason that might contribute to his unhappiness.

 

I don't say this to rag on you, colander_girl, but more to add it to the discussion for any readers who may also be dealing with a similar issue. You all put up with seriously scary stuff for a long time - years! - out of your obvious love and devotion. I salute your deep commitment! I hope you can all find some peace in this new phase.

[Guest colander_girl]

I'm so sorry.

 

What changed? I thought you guys had decided to do additional testing before returning him. Totally understand if you don't want to share. Either way, hugs to you and your family. You've done quite a lot with this guy - I hope the group is able to help him.

 

Yeah, that's what I thought as well but my husband changed his mind (probably to get him out of the house before we both caved and decided to give him another chance). Which I was leaning for. I wanted to get his corns taken care of at our vets also, but they wouldn't do it without "surgery." There was also the problem of our upcoming vacation, which would have corresponded with him off of his thyroid meds and being cared for by my mom--which would have put her in a very dangerous situation as he seems to be at his worst moods when he's off the l-thyroxine.

 

We have a really great adoption group and they are attempting to find out what his causing his aggression, their vet is (obviously) very experienced with greyhounds so we know he is in the best hands right now.

 

I really miss our boy, but in a way it is nice to finally be able to go out in public with our girl. We had to stop going to greyhound meetups as we were afraid of what could happen if our boy flipped out. That wouldn't be a great way to promote greyhound adoption if you can't let anyone pet your dog since he could attack them. :-) (Or having to explain why he's wearing a muzzle).

 

We will definitely adopt another dog (hopefully greyhound -- they are still my perfect dog). We might even adopt two more eventually. Just have to wait until the right time!

[NeylasMom]

I think those reasons are totally understandable. If you stay in touch with your group, I hope you will let us know what his test results are and if they turn anything up, and how things end up for him overall. I think it would be helpful for future cases like this, and of course we're all invested in hoping he finds another safe place to rest his head.

 

Good luck finding a new match for your girl.