Kibble Without The Four "d"s (Dead, Diseased, Disabled And Dow

[christinepi]

I'm so disgusted by some of the ingredients that go into most (or all?) kibble: namely "animal by-products" and "meal", which are always (unless stated otherwise) from dead, diseased, downed and disabled animals. I find that too upsetting for words. I've been feeding Tracker TOTW, but just discovered that even though it's considered one of the good kibbles, it still contains various "meals" and "egg products" instead of the real thing. I also feed him Honest Kitchen, which is human grade, so no by-products or meals. I tried raw, but that got too fussy and involved.

 

So my question is: is there any kibble out there that contains human grade meat only, or at the very least absolutely zero by-products and meals?

[Hubcitypam]

When I was a demo person for Blue Buffalo several years ago they had table signs that touted human grade ingredients. My boss told me that human grade was a crock and marketing ploy. That may or may not be true.

[MaryJane]

If you find a kibble that doesn't have it today then chances are they will change their ingredients at some point and have questionable ingredients next year or they year after. I found that it was a losing proposition trying to keep track of the ingredients and since I have a kidney/allergy dog, I couldn't take chances. I now also have a seizure dog so I can't have "funny stuff" in the food. So ... I home cook (no raw) and do meat, rice, oatmeal, veggies, and grits and they all seem to do well on it along with calcium and vitamin supplements.

 

Another disturbing trend is that it appears that smaller dog food brands are now sourcing ingredients from China and they do not directly source them -- it is the facility where they get the food processed that usually picks the vendors to work with. I had looked at a dog food (annukeet) with great ingredients and after a few emails to them I discovered that they use a vendor for processing and the vendor sources the proteins/ingredients.

 

Another problem is that they don't quality control each batch to ensure that the ingredients match what is listed on the bag. So if another brand was on the conveyer before your brand and the "machines" were not cleaned out well - you get contamination between brands. Even when they do quality control, it is the processing plant that does it which means that they could very well "doctor" the results - talk about the foxes watching the hens....

[Batmom]

"animal by-products" and "meal", which are always (unless stated otherwise) from dead, diseased, downed and disabled animals.

 

Where did you get that idea? There are nowhere near enough 4D animals to supply the dog food industry.

 

Meal is meat with moisture removed. A kibble with meat "meal" in it almost always contains more meat than a food with "meat," which includes a huge amount of water.

 

Byproducts are things like organs rather than muscle meat. Nutritious stuff, for the most part.

[Hubcitypam]

Meal is meat with moisture removed. A kibble with meat "meal" in it almost always contains more meat than a food with "meat," which includes a huge amount of water.

Byproducts are things like organs rather than muscle meat. Nutritious stuff, for the most part.

All of what Jey said is true. Listen to her. I love me some good fried chicken liver byproducts....

[Walliered]

I read the labels on kibble and do not want to feed my dog that crap.

[Guest IHeartDogs]

http://frommfamily.com/products/four-star/dog

 

Check them out, really good company. They respond to emails within 24 hours and make great food.

[christinepi]

"animal by-products" and "meal", which are always (unless stated otherwise) from dead, diseased, downed and disabled animals.

 

Where did you get that idea? There are nowhere near enough 4D animals to supply the dog food industry.

 

Meal is meat with moisture removed. A kibble with meat "meal" in it almost always contains more meat than a food with "meat," which includes a huge amount of water.

 

Byproducts are things like organs rather than muscle meat. Nutritious stuff, for the most part.

 

I quote from "Retired Racing Greyhounds for Dummies", page 156, under "Animal By-Products":

 

"The proteins in pet foods come from a variety of sources that range form human-grade meats, fish, and poultry to all kinds of animal and plant by-products. The meats, fish, or poultry, unless clearly stated otherwise, are usually from dead, diseased, dying, or disabled animals that are not fir for human consumption. Meat, poultry, and fish meals are made form animal tissues. These are leftover parts of animals, not counting meat, referred to as animal by-products, and they include organs, bone, blood, and intestines freed of their contents. By-products can't contain more than 14% of indigestible material, except for amounts that can't be avoided during processing."

 

For me it's the 4D thing more than anything, not so much whether it's nutritious or not. It's the cruelty connected to it. Not that the non-4D animals are treated like our greyhounds are, I'm aware of that. I'm not saying this is 100% rational on my part, but it's important to me...

[Hubcitypam]

For me it's the 4D thing more than anything, not so much whether it's nutritious or not. It's the cruelty connected to it. Not that the non-4D animals are treated like our greyhounds are, I'm aware of that. I'm not saying this is 100% rational on my part, but it's important to me...

There is zero cruelty involved with dead animals...they don't know. I've been on a tour of a slaughterhouse and there is nothing at all neat and tidy or warm and fuzzy about killing cattle, chicken and pigs for "human grade" food. Don't kid yourself that human grade food animals meet a nicer end.

 

as far as egg product...it's eggs that have been cracked at the plant and sold in bulk. If you've ever eaten scrambled eggs at a fast food place or hotel, odds are very good that it was egg product. Real eggs. The real thing. But it is not cost effective to have a human stand there and crack 100 dozen eggs.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Factsheets/Egg_Products_and_Food_Safety/index.asp

Edited May 31, 2012 by Hubcitypam

[JJNg]

I quote from "Retired Racing Greyhounds for Dummies", page 156, under "Animal By-Products":

 

"The proteins in pet foods come from a variety of sources that range form human-grade meats, fish, and poultry to all kinds of animal and plant by-products. The meats, fish, or poultry, unless clearly stated otherwise, are usually from dead, diseased, dying, or disabled animals that are not fir for human consumption. "

 

I'd be curious where the author got this information. This may or may not be true, but I would hardly consider a greyhound book to the ultimate source of information about pet food industry practices. Just because something is published in a book, doesn't mean it's true. Here's a website with the official AAFCO definitions for pet food ingredients. The ingredients list does not give you any indication what the source of the meat is - whether it is 4D or not. "Meal" or "by-product" are terms that apply to meat, regardlessof source.

 

Then, there's the question of whether 4D meat is necessarily unhealthy or dangerous to feed. Maybe, maybe not. The meat from an animal that is injured or disabled is no different from meat from a healthy animal. And even meat from a sick or dead animal is not necessarily harmful, especially after it's been cooked. Meat from these sources are rejected for human consumption because of regulations and negative human perceptions, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it nutritionally. Think about what dogs will eat when left to their own devices, and the majority of times, they have no problems with it.

 

For me it's the 4D thing more than anything, not so much whether it's nutritious or not. It's the cruelty connected to it.

 

How is 4D meat connected with cruelty? 4D animals come from the same processing facilities as non-4D animals. As an unavoidable part of life, some animals become sick, are accidentally injured, or die. These are things that just happen, and the individuals that become sick or injured have been treated exactly the same way as all the other animals that are slaughtered and processed for food.

[Anne]

Anyone eat deer meat from an animal that was killed by a car and then a hunter got it and had it dressed and butchered? I have. That's one of your "D's" right there, and me and my family are alive to tell about it. Dogs will eat a dead squirrel in a heart beat and live to tell about it.

 

I refuse to serve my dogs better and more expensive food than I eat.

 

I'd have to agree with Jey who said that there isn't enough 4D to go around to put into dog foods.

[GeorgeofNE]

Meal is meat with moisture removed. A kibble with meat "meal" in it almost always contains more meat than a food with "meat," which includes a huge amount of water.

Byproducts are things like organs rather than muscle meat. Nutritious stuff, for the most part.

All of what Jey said is true. Listen to her. I love me some good fried chicken liver byproducts....

 

Jay and Pam know what they're talking about. We have to remember something; dogs are NOT furry toddlers. What is "crap" and disgusting to a person is not to an animal. Anyone who has seen their dog happily eat a dead animal or a pile of poop understands this.

 

Obsessing over food is a relatively new trend. If your dog likes the food, if he looks good on it, if his weight is stable, and his output is good--then the food works for him.

[Guest greybookends]

4"D" , non 4"D", dead is still dead. Whether you are feeding raw or kibble. To each there own and what works for them and their dogs.

[racindog]

^{Solid Gold Health is the pickiest kibble company I've found but they were still involved in the last recall. They would never use 4D or any other low quality meat I don't believe. You may want to check them out. Endorsed by the Whole Dog Journal list too. www.solidgoldhealth.com}

Edited May 31, 2012 by racindog

[Guest BrianRke]

http://frommfamily.c...s/four-star/dog

 

Check them out, really good company. They respond to emails within 24 hours and make great food.

 

I use Fromm's too. Been very happy with them.

[Guest buttonwillow]

 

Think about what dogs will eat when left to their own devices, and the majority of times, they have no problems with it.

 

Just because Josie eats ** doesn't mean I'm going to feed it to her

[Guest sirsmom]

I'm so disgusted by some of the ingredients that go into most (or all?) kibble: namely "animal by-products" and "meal", which are always (unless stated otherwise) from dead, diseased, downed and disabled animals. I find that too upsetting for words. I've been feeding Tracker TOTW, but just discovered that even though it's considered one of the good kibbles, it still contains various "meals" and "egg products" instead of the real thing. I also feed him Honest Kitchen, which is human grade, so no by-products or meals. I tried raw, but that got too fussy and involved.

 

So my question is: is there any kibble out there that contains human grade meat only, or at the very least absolutely zero by-products and meals?

 

I'm not into his ratings at all, but at The Dog Food Advisor website he has an alphabetized listing of a lot of foods out and their ingredients that may be helpful to you

[Guest Jacks_Human]

I feed Jack Burn's kibble, which has good quality ingredients and good sourcing. Though I think it may only be available in Europe (it's a small Scotland-based company). I also get game meat for him (one of my local butchers specialises in wild-caught animals), which is theoretically a gamble as far as where the animal has been, etc. But this is very much natural for dogs, and Jack does his LOVE his venison legbones.

 

4D animals come from the same processing facilities as non-4D animals. As an unavoidable part of life, some animals become sick, are accidentally injured, or die. These are things that just happen, and the individuals that become sick or injured have been treated exactly the same way as all the other animals that are slaughtered and processed for food.

Precisely. It's only as good as the plant it came from. Honestly, I went to public school in the US, so I'm pretty sure that the same dodgy things (and worse) turn up in burgers.

 

Anyone eat deer meat from an animal that was killed by a car and then a hunter got it and had it dressed and butchered? I have. That's one of your "D's" right there, and me and my family are alive to tell about it. Dogs will eat a dead squirrel in a heart beat and live to tell about it.

Plus once something's been cooked, you're probably OK. Although I am red-meat intolerant myself, I know people who regularly snag fresh roadkill and cook it up. Unless poison or a prion disease is involved, dead is dead. Furthermore, dogs are designed to eat that kind of gross stuff and be OK.

 

Just because Josie eats ** doesn't mean I'm going to feed it to her

However, as much as Jack wants to scarf up beer-and-chips vomit, or rotting curry from the curb, that doesn't mean I'm going to dumpster-dive for him. Or let him eat a stinky run-over pigeon like he tried to do earlier.

[MaryJane]

I'm of the camp that feeding dead animals that were reasonable healthy should not be an issue but, I'm not sure that I would want to feed my dog a downer cow or one that is diseased. Both of these types of animals could be filled with cancer or even something like mad cow disease not to mention a whole host of other diseases. In the wild, I would expect that sick animals get taken out relatively early as prey and they don't progress to the point that an animal could that is eventually destined for the slaughterhouse.

[Hubcitypam]

In the wild, I would expect that sick animals get taken out relatively early as prey and they don't progress to the point that an animal could that is eventually destined for the slaughterhouse.

In the wild???? As in a ranch off Interstate 20 west of Ft.Worth?

[mom2four]

We feed a fish based food, it does not contain byproducts, only Wild Herring Meal and/or Wild Anchovy Meal and/or Wild Sardine Meal as per the ingredient list. It is grain free, potato is the other main ingredient.

 

It is a smallish company in BC, Canada but they do deliver. (We feed the Large breed one)

http://www.firstmate.com/default.aspx

 

Our dogs love the food and their poops are good, coats are shiny etc.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

[MaryJane]

In the wild, I would expect that sick animals get taken out relatively early as prey and they don't progress to the point that an animal could that is eventually destined for the slaughterhouse.

In the wild???? As in a ranch off Interstate 20 west of Ft.Worth?

 

I'm not catching this -- what does a ranch off interstate 20 west of Ft.Worth have to do with what I said?

[claudiav]

Have you tried googling "what goes into dog food?" the results will shock you.

 

When i adopted my first greyhound 3 yrs ago, he had diahrreah for 3 months straight. They sent us home with the same kibble he was eating at the kennel, so if he was healthy there, there was no reason he should not be healthy at home with me, on the same kibble. The vet couldn't figure out why he wouldn't improve. We tried prescription kibble, sensitive stomach kibble, grain freee kibble, pumpkin, boiled chicken & rice, boiled hamburger and rice, medicines, powders, etc... nothing woked. i researched what goes into dog food and was forever changed. What I learned made me sick. I will never feed any pet of mine dog/cat food again. I feed raw and home cooked food with fresh ingredients now. That day i spent hours on the internet changed me for the rest of my life.

 

I suggest digging deeper than just the ingredients on a label. And make your own decision whether to believe what you read or not.

[Guest KennelMom]

I remember being told by a kennel owner that they had to start adding charcoal to the 4D meat delivered to the track for the dogs because the trainers would skim some off for themselves and their families. The government says 4D can't be sold for human consumption but that doesn't necessarily mean its not fit for consumption.

 

The products we buy from a local raw food supplier are all labelled "not for human consumption" (green tripe, beef, organ mixture) but I feed it to my dogs no problem. Anyone who thinks prime animal meat goes into dog food is deluding themselves.

[christinepi]

Have you tried googling "what goes into dog food?" the results will shock you.

 

When i adopted my first greyhound 3 yrs ago, he had diahrreah for 3 months straight. They sent us home with the same kibble he was eating at the kennel, so if he was healthy there, there was no reason he should not be healthy at home with me, on the same kibble. The vet couldn't figure out why he wouldn't improve. We tried prescription kibble, sensitive stomach kibble, grain freee kibble, pumpkin, boiled chicken & rice, boiled hamburger and rice, medicines, powders, etc... nothing woked. i researched what goes into dog food and was forever changed. What I learned made me sick. I will never feed any pet of mine dog/cat food again. I feed raw and home cooked food with fresh ingredients now. That day i spent hours on the internet changed me for the rest of my life.

 

I suggest digging deeper than just the ingredients on a label. And make your own decision whether to believe what you read or not.

 

I totally hear you and agree with you. What you're doing is the best thing under the circumstances. But even that meat, unless you raise your own cattle and kill them yourself (or know the rancher and how he's raising his animals) still comes from horrible feedlots (also usually meaning meat containing antibiotics and hormones) and go to traditional, unkind slaughter facilities. But what can one do? Not have dogs?? There's no perfect and easy solution, it seems. I've been struggling with this since I got my dog.