Guest BrianRke Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) I took Frank to the vet this morning because he has been drinking and urinating excessively. I was hoping it was a UTI but the tests did not indicate that. His creatnine level was high (2.0) and his specific gravity was low (1.019). The blood panel showed none of his other levels were high, liver enzymes were fine. The vet said she "didnt think" it was kidney failure but couldnt rule out Cushings. She said it is unusual for his creatnine to be high and nothing else. She wants him to eat K/D for a week and put him on 200mg/day of Cefpodoxime (Simplicef). I am supposed to bring him back in a week to be re-checked. IF his levels are still off, she said she would have to investigate further or possibly refer him to OSU or VA Tech. Any thoughts? She also said it could be an infection that didnt show up in the tests. THats the reason for the antibiotics. Edited January 20, 2012 by BrianRke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Geostar Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Hmmmm..could it be the start of a tick borne disease? Another canidate could be an early onset of Addison's disease..heaven forbid!! The problem is so many diseases 'mimic' others.. The best to your grey and you at this point.. -star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrianRke Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 She never mentioned a TBD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Geostar Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Well, I do know that Maria urinated and drank water excessfully..plus loose stools. Our vet mentioned a number of things. Our grey is on Doxy currently and her stools are doing better, and she isn't drinking or urinating as much. That being said, a lot of diseases can 'mimic' others..so, I don't know. Didn't mean to concern you, but, I do know TBD come on quietly.. It's something to think about.. I sincerely hope it's not worse.. I know of a friend whose grey had a sudden high temp for no reason. That grey was on Doxy and the temp disappeared. Good luck.. -star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbhounds Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 What was Frank's BUN?? Creatnine can run higher in a GH--2.0 doesn't sound that high too me. Without an elavated BUN I would think something else is going on. Have you changed foods recently?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrianRke Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 What was Frank's BUN?? Creatnine can run higher in a GH--2.0 doesn't sound that high too me. Without an elavated BUN I would think something else is going on. Have you changed foods recently?? His BUN was normal, she didnt tell me the exact number, she did say that it was unusual for creatnine to be high and BUN not. No, havent changed foods recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeylasMom Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Do you have previous blood work from when he was healthy that you use as a baseline? I would want to know what his creatinine has been in the past. 2.0 isn't outside the realm of normal for a greyhound like tbhounds said. Also, did your vet do a culture or just a urinalysis? There was a good link posted in a thread here that updated research shows it's better to do a sterile culture to find bacterial infections. If your vet didn't do it and you've already started the ABs then I would just continue to treat with the AB and see if there is improvement. I wouldn't change diet yet, one thing at a time, especially since a low protein diet (which is what I believe K/D is) is not warranted in early renal disease, which this would certainly be considered with the blood values you have if it is renal disease. Quote Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart "The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carronstar Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Sending lots of good thoughts for this to be nothing at all to worry about for Frank. Will be watching this eagerly as my girl recently came back with a 2.6 reading for creatinine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burpdog Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 His creatine is fine especially if his BUN is normal. His urine is dilute because he is drinking lots of water. I certainly wouldn't go to a k/d diet. Is your vet familar with greyhounds? Email me and I'll send you all the medical info. Quote Diane & The Senior Gang Burpdog Biscuits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyhead Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Shane's numbers are just like Frank's, have been for a long time, and he just tested positive for Lyme. He has previously been treated for Babesia. What happens, in layman's terms, is that the antibodies from the TBD impede the kidneys' filtering ability, by blocking the drains, essentially. So it's not true kidney disease as such, but the kidneys are affected. I'd highly recommend having Frank tested. It's disappointing to me that we just tolerated these numbers for years without further investigation, but our state doesn't see a lot of TBD's, so the vets aren't expecting it. But we get fosters from time to time, as we did recently, so it could have come from anywhere. We're having one more test done for Shane, the new Lyme Multiplex test from Cornell, tomorrow. Won't have results until next week because the sample has to be sent there. But that test has the ability to distinguish a new infection from an old one, and that information will help in knowing how long he'll need treatment and at how strong a dose. There's no question in my mind that having this kind of chronic difficulty in filtering waste from the blood drags the dog down, because I've watched it happen. (Shane wound up with an internist a few weeks ago, with low BP, pale gums, swollen lymph nodes and tenderness around the kidneys. But I'm the one who had to think to have more TBD testing done. Fortunately, the internist agreed that that was a good and reasonable thing to do, since an ultrasound and aspirating the nodes didn't show anything.) Quote Mary with Jumper Jack (2/17/11) and angels Shane (PA's Busta Rime, 12/10/02 - 10/14/16) and Spencer (Dutch Laser, 11/25/00 - 3/29/13). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrianRke Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Do you have previous blood work from when he was healthy that you use as a baseline? I would want to know what his creatinine has been in the past. 2.0 isn't outside the realm of normal for a greyhound like tbhounds said. Also, did your vet do a culture or just a urinalysis? There was a good link posted in a thread here that updated research shows it's better to do a sterile culture to find bacterial infections. If your vet didn't do it and you've already started the ABs then I would just continue to treat with the AB and see if there is improvement. I wouldn't change diet yet, one thing at a time, especially since a low protein diet (which is what I believe K/D is) is not warranted in early renal disease, which this would certainly be considered with the blood values you have if it is renal disease. No previous bloodwork. Jan 24th will be his 1st gotcha day. He has only been to the vet once since I got him and that was in October to get his shots. The vet only did a urinalysys, that test didnt indicate an infection, but she said that it didnt mean there wasnt one. Thats why she gave him the AB. She said the SG of 1.019 was low but it really wasnt low enough to be kidney failure or Cushings. I guess I wont really know anything until next week when I take him back. His creatine is fine especially if his BUN is normal. His urine is dilute because he is drinking lots of water. I certainly wouldn't go to a k/d diet. Is your vet familar with greyhounds? Email me and I'll send you all the medical info. Thanks, just did His creatine is fine especially if his BUN is normal. His urine is dilute because he is drinking lots of water. I certainly wouldn't go to a k/d diet. Is your vet familar with greyhounds? Email me and I'll send you all the medical info. She is somewhat familiar with greyhounds. SHe is actually getting ready to adopt one and she is a member of the OSU greyhound wellness program. She also consulted with another vet at the practice, and he graduated from OSU vet school and trained with Dr.Couto. Hopefully they know what they're doing but you never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryJane Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Was the urine a "first morning catch" ... if not, it could have been more dilute than normal. I suggest that you catch the "first morning specimen" and have the specific gravity rechecked. Larry runs slightly higher on the creatinine which by itself in a greyhound is not unusual but, with a lowered specific gravity the situation becomes more murky (Larry's specific gravity is also on the low end). After discussions with my vet at that time, we decided to keep Larry's protein at the lower end but a higher quality protein (which is more usable) and with that in mind, I had a home-made diet formulated for him. He has been on the diet for years and he seems like he is doing OK .. at least for now. There are some dog foods that run about 19 to 20% protein which my vet had also recommended. Larry also has food allergies that have gotten worse over the years. I have noticed that if he is allergic/sensitive to something in the food he will drink much more and then as a consequence urinate more. I'm not sure if the allergic reaction is somehow irritating to the kidneys but, that is what appears to happen. Also, if I increase the amount of protein in Larry's food to what would be a "normal" or "high normal" amount, he starts to drink more and of course will have to urinate more. This is not to say that Frank doesn't have an infection, that could also be responsible for the problems that you have noted. As an elimination step in diagnosing, I don't think it would hurt to be on K/D for a week and see if it decreases the amount of drinking (and urination) and if it doesn't help, then you could go back to a regular diet afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrianRke Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Was the urine a "first morning catch" ... if not, it could have been more dilute than normal. I suggest that you catch the "first morning specimen" and have the specific gravity rechecked. Larry runs slightly higher on the creatinine which by itself in a greyhound is not unusual but, with a lowered specific gravity the situation becomes more murky (Larry's specific gravity is also on the low end). After discussions with my vet at that time, we decided to keep Larry's protein at the lower end but a higher quality protein (which is more usable) and with that in mind, I had a home-made diet formulated for him. He has been on the diet for years and he seems like he is doing OK .. at least for now. There are some dog foods that run about 19 to 20% protein which my vet had also recommended. Larry also has food allergies that have gotten worse over the years. I have noticed that if he is allergic/sensitive to something in the food he will drink much more and then as a consequence urinate more. I'm not sure if the allergic reaction is somehow irritating to the kidneys but, that is what appears to happen. Also, if I increase the amount of protein in Larry's food to what would be a "normal" or "high normal" amount, he starts to drink more and of course will have to urinate more. This is not to say that Frank doesn't have an infection, that could also be responsible for the problems that you have noted. As an elimination step in diagnosing, I don't think it would hurt to be on K/D for a week and see if it decreases the amount of drinking (and urination) and if it doesn't help, then you could go back to a regular diet afterwards. Thanks, it was a "first morning catch" or as close to it as possible. He got me up around 3:00am to go out and I got the sample when I let him out at around 7:00am so there had been about a 4 hour time period when he didnt go, but he had not been drinking water during the night so I think I got a pretty good sample. I may ask you for your home-made diet if we determine thats what is causing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 4rooers Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Brian, Just went through something similar with Rourke. Ultrasound showed a small dark lesion on his prostrate. I did 6 weeks of zenequin and it cleared for a while. He just started up again, and Sara suggested I talk to Gail(animal communicator). Turns out at least some of his problems are behavioral, he is a nervous dog. You make want to call Gail, too. Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onrushpam Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 How old is Frank? I'm not sure, but I think Cushings is fairly rare in greyhounds. I'd sure be checking for tick-borne disease. There's an old saying, "If you hear hoofbeats behind you, don't expect to see a Zebra when you turn around." With retired greyhounds, TBD is the horse. Other stuff, like Cushings, is the Zebra. Quote Pam GPA-Tallahassee/Southeastern Greyhound Adoption "Fate is unalterable only in the sense that given a cause, a certain result must follow, but no cause is inevitable in itself, and man can shape his world if he does not resign himself to ignorance." Pearl S. Buck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrianRke Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Frank is only 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmom Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Assuming upper end of normal creatinine at your lab is 1.6-1.8, 2.0 isn't elevated for a greyhound. What is he fed? Within living memory, I opened a new bag of dog food, from which the first meal caused my dog to drink like a fish -- really quite dramatic. Reported to manufacturer, stopped buying that brand (and stopped feeding it immediately). Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EllenEveBaz Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Nutmeg went through a period last year of higher creatinine (got up to 2.1), normal but rising BUN, and low gravity (forget exact number). Numbers weren't that bad, but concerning. Vet suggested her partial raw diet might have contributed , which she'd been on for years without affecting her kidney values. Put her on a kidney kibble (which she let me know was WAY too low protein for her) for about six weeks, supplemented by home-fixed kidney diet. Laid off all raw meat. Values all changed to closer to the middle of the normal range, and she's back to her regular diet. Perplexing, but hoping for something similarly short-run for Frank. Edited January 19, 2012 by EllenEveBaz Quote Ellen, with brindle Milo and the blonde ballerina, Gelsey remembering Eve, Baz, Scout, Romie, Nutmeg, and Jeter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kudzu Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 A tick panel may be in order. It would at least hep narrow down the search. An ACTH stim(ulation) test can help check for both Addison's & Cushing's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeofNE Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 George's creatinine is over 2--always is. He has no other values that are "off." My former vet kept running test after test. Finally I sent his results to Dr. Couto who emailed me back that given all other tests are normal, stop testing the dog. Clearly there is nothing with him, and it's just one of those Greyhound idiosyncracies. I believe his last value was 2.1. As long as the urine tests OK, we just ignore the "abnormal" next to the value. Quote Susan, Hamish, Mister Bigglesworth and Nikita Stanislav. Missing Ming, George, and Buck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrianRke Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Assuming upper end of normal creatinine at your lab is 1.6-1.8, 2.0 isn't elevated for a greyhound. What is he fed? Within living memory, I opened a new bag of dog food, from which the first meal caused my dog to drink like a fish -- really quite dramatic. Reported to manufacturer, stopped buying that brand (and stopped feeding it immediately). Diamond Naturals chicken/rice with TOTW canned food mixed in with it in the morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissn333 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Greyhounds normally run a high creatinine, as others have said. Especially if they are raw-fed or eat a high protein kibble. I would absolutely not give him k/d. Quote Kristin in Moline, IL USA with Ozzie (MRL Crusin Clem), Clarice (Clarice McBones), Latte and Sage the IGs, and the kitties: Violet and Rose Lovingly Remembered: Sutra (Fliowa Sutra) 12/02/97-10/12/10, Pinky (Pick Me) 04/20/03-11/19/12, Fritz (Fritz Fire) 02/05/01 - 05/20/13, Ace (Fantastic Ace) 02/05/01 - 07/05/13, and Carrie (Takin the Crumbs) 05/08/99 - 09/04/13. A cure for cancer can't come soon enough.-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryJane Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Was the urine a "first morning catch" ... if not, it could have been more dilute than normal. I suggest that you catch the "first morning specimen" and have the specific gravity rechecked. Larry runs slightly higher on the creatinine which by itself in a greyhound is not unusual but, with a lowered specific gravity the situation becomes more murky (Larry's specific gravity is also on the low end). After discussions with my vet at that time, we decided to keep Larry's protein at the lower end but a higher quality protein (which is more usable) and with that in mind, I had a home-made diet formulated for him. He has been on the diet for years and he seems like he is doing OK .. at least for now. There are some dog foods that run about 19 to 20% protein which my vet had also recommended. Larry also has food allergies that have gotten worse over the years. I have noticed that if he is allergic/sensitive to something in the food he will drink much more and then as a consequence urinate more. I'm not sure if the allergic reaction is somehow irritating to the kidneys but, that is what appears to happen. Also, if I increase the amount of protein in Larry's food to what would be a "normal" or "high normal" amount, he starts to drink more and of course will have to urinate more. This is not to say that Frank doesn't have an infection, that could also be responsible for the problems that you have noted. As an elimination step in diagnosing, I don't think it would hurt to be on K/D for a week and see if it decreases the amount of drinking (and urination) and if it doesn't help, then you could go back to a regular diet afterwards. Thanks, it was a "first morning catch" or as close to it as possible. He got me up around 3:00am to go out and I got the sample when I let him out at around 7:00am so there had been about a 4 hour time period when he didnt go, but he had not been drinking water during the night so I think I got a pretty good sample. I may ask you for your home-made diet if we determine thats what is causing it. Actually, it seems like your vet is trying to get the protein level down to see if that could be the cause of the excessive drinking. IMHO, this seems like a reasonable diagnostic step to take to rule out protein as a factor. If you don't like the k/d (about 14% protein), try the z/d dog food - it has about 19% protein and I think that this dog food would also help to rule out food allergies which could also cause excessive drinking. As a note, the only way to determine whether the protein level or type of protein in the dog food is the problem, is to change the diet and try it for awhile - that becomes (in effect) a diagnostic test because if your dog does better and stops drinking as much, then the diet is likely to be the problem and you can continue with an elimination diet from there to determine what in the diet is the problem. Remember, many of these dog food companies have moved manufacturing to China or they are sourcing materials from China and the quality control in developing nations is not at the same level as it is in the developed nations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest greytkidsmom Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 We had something similar here - Tiel was drinking bowls of water and having accidents in the house. She had also lost some weight. Bloodwork wss normal for a GH (Creatinine 2.1) but urine specific gravity was low (not a first am sample). She saw a couple of bacterial rods in the urine so she treated her for 2 weeks with an antibiotic. Her repeat UA showed appropriately concentrated urine and no more bacteria. Our vet told us that sometimes a UTI can alter the specific gravity so treating for a UTI first can help refine the differential diagnosis. Feel better Frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrianRke Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Last night, I went to sleep about 7:30 after my horrible day (posted in soap box). Daytona woke me at 4:30am to go out. Frank had gone 9 HOURS without having to go out!!!! I think the antibiotics may be working Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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