BauersMom Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Berk's doing really great - he had a grand ol' time playing in the snow this morning. So one question - has anyone had massive shedding after chemo was over?? Ever since his last appt, he's been blowing his coat - the hair is coming out in tufts! In the 6 years we've had him, he's never been a big shedder. So strange for January. With Buster Bloof (UCME Razorback 89B-51359) and Gingersnap Ginny (92D-59450). Missing Pepper, Berkeley, Ivy, Princess and Bauer at the bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vjgrey Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 So one question - has anyone had massive shedding after chemo was over?? Ever since his last appt, he's been blowing his coat - the hair is coming out in tufts! In the 6 years we've had him, he's never been a big shedder. So strange for January. YES! I've been meaning to ask this. Gabe isn't through with Chemo - he'll have his fourth in two weeks. But he's been shedding like crazy. He usually isn't a big shedder - my two white girls are - but I haven't seen coat blowing like this since the Siberian Husky I grew up with. It's EVERYWHERE, and we get handfuls every time we pet him. I mentioned it to the oncology tech, but she didn't think it was related to the chemo. Valerie w/ Cash (CashforClunkers) & Lucy (Racing School Dropout)Missing our gorgeous Miss Diamond (Shorty's Diamond), sweet boy Gabe (Zared) and Holly (ByGollyItsHolly), who never made it home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejoesmom Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I noticed that Joey's coat was getting thinner and that he lost his whiskers. OSU told me this is normal with chemo. Joe's didn't come out in tufts though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeylasMom Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 You'd think it would make sense given that people lose their hair when they go through chemo although I've never really noticed anyone mention it. All I can remember is Winslow growing his big furry coat and needing Mr. Fanny from then on. Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart "The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissn333 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Jen, I thought of Fanny too when this was brought up I haven't noticed anything yet with Pinky, but she's only had two treatments thus far. Her hair is growing back in pretty well except for the spot where her pain patch was. The hair isn't shiny yet, but it's downy looking. I'm curious to see what happens as we continue. Kristin in Moline, IL USA with Ozzie (MRL Crusin Clem), Clarice (Clarice McBones), Latte and Sage the IGs, and the kitties: Violet and Rose Lovingly Remembered: Sutra (Fliowa Sutra) 12/02/97-10/12/10, Pinky (Pick Me) 04/20/03-11/19/12, Fritz (Fritz Fire) 02/05/01 - 05/20/13, Ace (Fantastic Ace) 02/05/01 - 07/05/13, and Carrie (Takin the Crumbs) 05/08/99 - 09/04/13. A cure for cancer can't come soon enough.-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BauersMom Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Interesting. It didn't start with Berk until after he was done with chemo. And of course his surgery site is still pretty nekkid With Buster Bloof (UCME Razorback 89B-51359) and Gingersnap Ginny (92D-59450). Missing Pepper, Berkeley, Ivy, Princess and Bauer at the bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiggysMom Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Twiggy's is thinning a bit too (just finished her last dose a week ago). She hasn't lost her whiskers yet, though. I have another question. I'm interviewing a new oncologist on Monday and wanted to go in armed with OSU's current recommendation on dosing for metronomic chemo. OSU emailed me this morning with their protocol, but referred to the Palladia dosage as mg per kp (which is kilopond, a unit of force). Does this sound right??? Pfizer shows dosages for Palladia as mg/kg. Was this a typo? I emailed OSU back with this question, but haven't gotten an answer yet. On the up side, this oncologist is named (along with Dr. Couto) on the FDA's Freedom of Information Summary for Palladia, so hopefully, he is a smart cookie. He also has 2 greyhounds (but the receptionist told me he claims they are his wife's dogs, not sure if that's a red flag...) Twiggy is finally starting to get some form to her stool a week after the old onco neglected to flush her system after her carbo treatment. But, she did snow zoomies tonight!! Wendy with Twiggy, fosterless while Twiggy's fighting the good fight, and Donnie & Aiden the kitties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejoesmom Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Wendy, I'm thinking that the kp is a typo and should be kg. This is OSU's Palladia protocol that was emailed to me in October 2010: METRONOMIC THERAPY PROTOCOL • Palladia (2.5 mg/kg, PO, Mon, Wed, Fri) • Cytoxan (10 mg/m2, PO, Tue, Thu, Sat) we get it from SBH Medical pharmacy (http://www.sbhmed.com • Artemisinin (100 mg q24h) • Famotidine (0.5 mg/kg PO q24h) We warn the owners about the possibility of hemorrhagic cystitis, that is the most important side effect of cytoxan, we ask them to check their urine and contact us if they observe dysuria and/or stranguria. It is also important to explain to them that they need to use gloves when administering the chemo agent. Artemisinin is used in people as an anti-malarial drug, and also has shown some good results against cancer cells. Although we have had excellent results with artemisinin with osteosarcoma cells in the test tube, we have not seen any "earth-shattering" responses in Greyhounds with tumors. Having said that, it will not hurt to use it. We get it from Holley Pharmaceuticals (www.holleypharma.com). We give the artemisinin with peanut butter or other fatty (non-meat) treats, since artemisinin binds with iron in the meat and it doesn't work as well. The Greyhound Health and Wellness Program The Ohio State University Veterinary Medical Center 601 Vernon L. Tharp Street. Columbus, Ohio 43210 Companion Animal Ph: (614) 292-3551 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiggysMom Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Jane, Thank you so much for this - it does look like the kp must have been a typo. They seem to have altered their protocol a little bit since then. Here is what they sent me: Thanks Wendy; we are currently using the following protocol: 1. Palladia 2.5-2.7 mg/kp, PO, Mo, Wed, Fri 2. Cyclophosphamide: 10 mg/m2 PO, Tue, Thu, Sat 3. Deramaxx: 1 mg/kg PO once a day 4. Artemisinin: 100 mg once a day We also use Pepcid AC or Prilosec to prevent GI issues. Good luck with Twiggy! I thought I'd show this since there are several of us getting close to needing to start long-term treatment. Just change the "kp" to "kg" in the Palladia dosing line, and it should be good! Wendy with Twiggy, fosterless while Twiggy's fighting the good fight, and Donnie & Aiden the kitties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissn333 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Wendy, why the Deramaxx? Kristin in Moline, IL USA with Ozzie (MRL Crusin Clem), Clarice (Clarice McBones), Latte and Sage the IGs, and the kitties: Violet and Rose Lovingly Remembered: Sutra (Fliowa Sutra) 12/02/97-10/12/10, Pinky (Pick Me) 04/20/03-11/19/12, Fritz (Fritz Fire) 02/05/01 - 05/20/13, Ace (Fantastic Ace) 02/05/01 - 07/05/13, and Carrie (Takin the Crumbs) 05/08/99 - 09/04/13. A cure for cancer can't come soon enough.-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiggysMom Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Kristin, they didn't say in their email, but I know that there are several metronomic protocols that include Deramaxx or Rimadyl. I think it is more for the anti-inflammatory properties than pain control (but certainly could help relieve muscle stress that our 3-leggers get from walking funny). Also, Palladia costs seem to have come down a bit. VetRxDirect (which was the first Vet-VIPPS certified online veterinary pharmacy) sells it for: 10mg pill - $3.99 15mg pill - $4.99 50mg pill - $16.99 That would make Twiggy's Palladia cost $21-$25 per dose, or $63-$75/week, or $1,090-$1,300 per year. (The ranges reflect the low/high end of dosing recommendation at both her pre- and post-amp weights, because I'm not sure which they use; Twiggy was 58.5 lbs pre, and is 53.5 lbs post). I'm not sure whether this cost is better than what a specialty vet's prices would be, but thought I'd post it for reference. Wendy with Twiggy, fosterless while Twiggy's fighting the good fight, and Donnie & Aiden the kitties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiggysMom Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Kristin, they didn't say in their email, but I know that there are several metronomic protocols that include Deramaxx or Rimadyl. I think it is more for the anti-inflammatory properties than pain control (but certainly could help relieve muscle stress that our 3-leggers get from walking funny). Also, Palladia costs seem to have come down a bit. VetRxDirect (which was the first Vet-VIPPS certified online veterinary pharmacy) sells it for: 10mg pill - $3.99 15mg pill - $4.99 50mg pill - $16.99 That would make Twiggy's Palladia cost $21-$25 per dose, or $63-$75/week, or $1,090-$1,300 per year. (The ranges reflect the low/high end of dosing recommendation at both her pre- and post-amp weights, because I'm not sure which they use; Twiggy was 58.5 lbs pre, and is 53.5 lbs post). I'm not sure whether this cost is better than what a specialty vet's prices would be, but thought I'd post it for reference. OK, so I'm an idiot - the yearly $ amounts I messed up, should have been $3,275 - $3,900. Wendy with Twiggy, fosterless while Twiggy's fighting the good fight, and Donnie & Aiden the kitties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJNg Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Wendy, why the Deramaxx? It may also be because some newer studies are indicating that NSAIDs may have some anti-cancer properties. This has long been established with piroxicam and bladder cancer, but newer information is showing that other NSAIDs (Rimadyl, Deramaxx, etc) also have beneficial effects against other cancers as well. Jennifer & Willow (Wilma Waggle), Wiki (Wiki Hard Ten), Carter (Let's Get It On), Ollie (whippet), Gracie (whippet x), & Terra (whippet) + Just Saying + Just Alice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissn333 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Interesting...and good to know, thanks! Kristin in Moline, IL USA with Ozzie (MRL Crusin Clem), Clarice (Clarice McBones), Latte and Sage the IGs, and the kitties: Violet and Rose Lovingly Remembered: Sutra (Fliowa Sutra) 12/02/97-10/12/10, Pinky (Pick Me) 04/20/03-11/19/12, Fritz (Fritz Fire) 02/05/01 - 05/20/13, Ace (Fantastic Ace) 02/05/01 - 07/05/13, and Carrie (Takin the Crumbs) 05/08/99 - 09/04/13. A cure for cancer can't come soon enough.-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greysmom Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 Dude's metronomic protocol: artemisinin - every morning, no alternating weeks on and off Cytoxan - alternating every evening with piroxicam - an NSAID with some shown cancer-fighting properties acid reducer as needed Dude did very well on this protocol with no real GI upset. The cytoxan was compounded specifically for him by a compounding pharmacy in AZ called Diamondback. Nothing was prohibitively expensive, even the chemo drug. Plus we added in the MSM/Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements from Greyhound Gang daily. We did not use the vitamin C as our onco was against using it with the cytoxan. Chris - Mom to: Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora) siggy by Chris Harper, on Flickr Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom, Lilly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejoesmom Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) Wendy, I'm thinking that the kp is a typo and should be kg. This is OSU's Palladia protocol that was emailed to me in October 2010: METRONOMIC THERAPY PROTOCOL • Palladia (2.5 mg/kg, PO, Mon, Wed, Fri) • Cytoxan (10 mg/m2, PO, Tue, Thu, Sat) we get it from SBH Medical pharmacy (http://www.sbhmed.com • Artemisinin (100 mg q24h) • Famotidine (0.5 mg/kg PO q24h) We warn the owners about the possibility of hemorrhagic cystitis, that is the most important side effect of cytoxan, we ask them to check their urine and contact us if they observe dysuria and/or stranguria. It is also important to explain to them that they need to use gloves when administering the chemo agent. Artemisinin is used in people as an anti-malarial drug, and also has shown some good results against cancer cells. Although we have had excellent results with artemisinin with osteosarcoma cells in the test tube, we have not seen any "earth-shattering" responses in Greyhounds with tumors. Having said that, it will not hurt to use it. We get it from Holley Pharmaceuticals (www.holleypharma.com). We give the artemisinin with peanut butter or other fatty (non-meat) treats, since artemisinin binds with iron in the meat and it doesn't work as well. The Greyhound Health and Wellness Program The Ohio State University Veterinary Medical Center 601 Vernon L. Tharp Street. Columbus, Ohio 43210 Companion Animal Ph: (614) 292-3551 I did want to add that Dr. Couto said it was okay to use a joint supplement (I use Phycox -- Dr. C. reviewed the ingredients and said okay) along with CET toothpaste (this is what I normally use so only asked him specifically about this), and Petzlife Gel. I have the okay to use Deramaxx and Tramadol as needed. Joe is in a study so perhaps this is why they didn't add the Deramaxx as a regular thing. I will ask next time I go in. Joe has some mild LS so I am trying to use the phycox to prevent this from getting too much worse. Jane Edited January 21, 2012 by joejoesmom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vjgrey Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 DH caught Gabe tonight with front feet on the counter, stealing shredded chicken out of a bowl I'd left there while I fed the pups. Gabe is a fast eater and wandered back to the kitchen for bonus chicken. Made us both smile (and reward the naughtiness with chicken). Valerie w/ Cash (CashforClunkers) & Lucy (Racing School Dropout)Missing our gorgeous Miss Diamond (Shorty's Diamond), sweet boy Gabe (Zared) and Holly (ByGollyItsHolly), who never made it home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissn333 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 It's funny how our definition of acceptable behavior changes with our osteo kids...we end up rejoicing when they do naughty things because it usually means they are feeling great enough to be mischievous Good boy, Gabe Kristin in Moline, IL USA with Ozzie (MRL Crusin Clem), Clarice (Clarice McBones), Latte and Sage the IGs, and the kitties: Violet and Rose Lovingly Remembered: Sutra (Fliowa Sutra) 12/02/97-10/12/10, Pinky (Pick Me) 04/20/03-11/19/12, Fritz (Fritz Fire) 02/05/01 - 05/20/13, Ace (Fantastic Ace) 02/05/01 - 07/05/13, and Carrie (Takin the Crumbs) 05/08/99 - 09/04/13. A cure for cancer can't come soon enough.-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BauersMom Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 It's funny how our definition of acceptable behavior changes with our osteo kids...we end up rejoicing when they do naughty things because it usually means they are feeling great enough to be mischievous This is totally true. Though while the first few counter surfing episodes were funny, the rest Berkeley now gets yelled at for. He tried to get his nose into my coffee this morning, too, the little stinker!! With Buster Bloof (UCME Razorback 89B-51359) and Gingersnap Ginny (92D-59450). Missing Pepper, Berkeley, Ivy, Princess and Bauer at the bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greysmom Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Gabe! Chris - Mom to: Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora) siggy by Chris Harper, on Flickr Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom, Lilly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeylasMom Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Wendy, why the Deramaxx? It may also be because some newer studies are indicating that NSAIDs may have some anti-cancer properties. This has long been established with piroxicam and bladder cancer, but newer information is showing that other NSAIDs (Rimadyl, Deramaxx, etc) also have beneficial effects against other cancers as well. Though I've heard about Piroxicam being used for this purpose more than Deramaxx. The metronomic protocol that was being recommended back when Neyla was diagnosed was an NSAID, doxy, and one other thing I can't remember. I don't think Palladia was well known at that point, but I was also researching palliative care, not post amp/chemo treatment. Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart "The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissn333 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I think it was the Cytoxan (sp?) Pinky's chemo was shipped out on Friday so it should be there for our Thursday morning appointment I hope her neutrophil count is good enough! Kristin in Moline, IL USA with Ozzie (MRL Crusin Clem), Clarice (Clarice McBones), Latte and Sage the IGs, and the kitties: Violet and Rose Lovingly Remembered: Sutra (Fliowa Sutra) 12/02/97-10/12/10, Pinky (Pick Me) 04/20/03-11/19/12, Fritz (Fritz Fire) 02/05/01 - 05/20/13, Ace (Fantastic Ace) 02/05/01 - 07/05/13, and Carrie (Takin the Crumbs) 05/08/99 - 09/04/13. A cure for cancer can't come soon enough.-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiggysMom Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Wendy, why the Deramaxx? It may also be because some newer studies are indicating that NSAIDs may have some anti-cancer properties. This has long been established with piroxicam and bladder cancer, but newer information is showing that other NSAIDs (Rimadyl, Deramaxx, etc) also have beneficial effects against other cancers as well. Though I've heard about Piroxicam being used for this purpose more than Deramaxx. The metronomic protocol that was being recommended back when Neyla was diagnosed was an NSAID, doxy, and one other thing I can't remember. I don't think Palladia was well known at that point, but I was also researching palliative care, not post amp/chemo treatment. Like you, I have heard of piroxicam as part of many metronomic protocols, and was a little surprised when OSU said they are now recommending Deramaxx as the NSAID component of their metronomic protocol. I met with a new oncologist today. I really like him; he has a lot of good information, none of which conflicted with what I already knew. I asked him specifically about Deramaxx vs Piroxicam, he said that Piroxicam has been around the longest, and has the most information available. That is why it has been so commonly used in metronomic protocols. He also felt that it has greater potential for long-term side effects than Deramaxx in particular, and that all NSAIDs work in the same manner, and therefore have the same potential to fight cancer growth. He also mentioned the nation-wide shortage of many drugs, including Deramaxx and many chemo meds (as a lot of people here have experienced). He said that he thinks Palladia is going to turn out to be the game-changer in prolonging survival in osteo patients. In researching Palladia I discovered he was one of the vets named in the FDA's FOI summary on Palladia (along with Dr. Couto and a fair number of others.) When I mentioned this to him today, he seemed confused at first, and when I explained which paper I'd found a little better he said "Oh, yeah, I did work on that way back..." totally nonchalant and not boastful or arrogant about it. He favors a metronomic protocol that is essentially the same as OSU's, minus the artemisinin, but he is completely open to using artemisinin. So, we've got a new oncologist! I think it was the Cytoxan (sp?) Pinky's chemo was shipped out on Friday so it should be there for our Thursday morning appointment I hope her neutrophil count is good enough! Pinky is getting Cytoxan as her iv chemo? Twiggy will be getting an oral version of that as part of her metronomic protocol. Wendy with Twiggy, fosterless while Twiggy's fighting the good fight, and Donnie & Aiden the kitties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissn333 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 No, that was in response to Jen trying to remember the other part of the metronomic protocol that OTHER Jen (BigOrangeDog) had her boys on, which is what was being used at the time Neyla and my Sutra had osteo. Pinky's getting the carboplatin Great news about the new oncologist too! How is Twiggy doing? How long do you wait after the last IV chemo to start the metronomic protocol? Kristin in Moline, IL USA with Ozzie (MRL Crusin Clem), Clarice (Clarice McBones), Latte and Sage the IGs, and the kitties: Violet and Rose Lovingly Remembered: Sutra (Fliowa Sutra) 12/02/97-10/12/10, Pinky (Pick Me) 04/20/03-11/19/12, Fritz (Fritz Fire) 02/05/01 - 05/20/13, Ace (Fantastic Ace) 02/05/01 - 07/05/13, and Carrie (Takin the Crumbs) 05/08/99 - 09/04/13. A cure for cancer can't come soon enough.-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiggysMom Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 No, that was in response to Jen trying to remember the other part of the metronomic protocol that OTHER Jen (BigOrangeDog) had her boys on, which is what was being used at the time Neyla and my Sutra had osteo. Pinky's getting the carboplatin Great news about the new oncologist too! How is Twiggy doing? How long do you wait after the last IV chemo to start the metronomic protocol? Oh, that makes sense! I wasn't following well enough! I think I've heard of an iv version of cytoxan in human chemo (not positive though). Re: how long after iv chemo - her original onco wanted to see her 3 weeks post iv chemo to start to discuss metronomic protocols (so, probably wouldn't have started it that soon, but not sure). New onco also feels that sooner (3 weeks) is better than later for starting. He said that we could wait an extra week, but if all her labs are good, it would be better to start at 3 weeks. Twiggy is getting back on track. Her energy and appetite are good, although she still has some soft stool (but not Big D anymore). Wendy with Twiggy, fosterless while Twiggy's fighting the good fight, and Donnie & Aiden the kitties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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