He Won't Listen To Me Unless I Have Food

[Guest RealClearBlue]

Hello all.

 

Just wanted to know if anyone else had this issue. I've been trying to train Howie on some commands. I think we got "down" down pat. However the same commands I can get him to do with simply him seeing a treat in my hand I can't for the life of me get him to do without. Now I know in the dummies book they recommend "fading" the lure or treat away. However Howie is too smart for that he seems. He smells my hand for a treat, if he smells nothing he is like "screw this I'm done" lol.

 

Any tips or suggestions of where to start in overcoming this obstacle?

[Guest KatJon]

Rhythm does the same thing.... Sorry no suggestions but I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say!

[Yamaha_gurl]

I asked this question about a month ago...no one had answers

[Riverhound]

Rhythm does the same thing.... Sorry no suggestions but I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say!

 

Me too! I can usually get him to do the first command, but if I don't cough up the goodies, Joe's all done! He's got me trained!

[Time4ANap]

Change your cologne to something beef based.....

 

Maybe change the type of treats each time so he's not looking for the same smell over and over. Eventually leaving a treat out of the picture from time to time.

 

I'm sure that others who have dealt with this will be able to chime in with a solid way to do this.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Time4ANap

[GeorgeofNE]

Good luck!

 

My Greyhound simply has no interest in pleasing me in terms of learning stuff. I'm sure if I had found the right motivation he is ABLE to learn, but honestly? He looks at me with disdain when I give him the commands he does know!

[muddgirl]

I have these really REALLY smelly treats. Like, the smell lingers on my hand for hours (I think the brand is Pet Botanicals Salmon and Tuna or something like that). Those definitely seem to help.

 

What I do is first become perfectly aware of my routine before I ask for the command. Do I reach in the pocket for my treat? Do I go get it out of the bag? Do I hold a couple in my hand and dole them out one at a time? When I start to fade the treat, I try to replicate that chain exactly, except once in a while (a LONG while), I don't have a treat in my hand (just perhaps a treat-smelly hand). For example, if I'm working with a treat bag that day, I'll reach in for a treat, lure the down, then reward. Do the same thing a couple more times. On the 7th time (or whatever), I'll reach in for a treat (but not grab one), lure the down, and see if it works. If so, grab another treat and reward. If not, no worries, I'll try again after a couple more repetitions.

 

Another idea: Use the treat to lure the down, but reward him with a different treat than the one in your hand. It might show him that he's not working for the treat that he sees, but the future treat, so he doesn't really need a visual treat (basically you have to teach him to trust that you're going to reward him eventually).

Edited October 21, 2011 by muddgirl

[Trihounds]

I have 2 aloof dogs that could care less also! Sometimes food doesn't even motivate them!

[XTRAWLD]

a lot of greys have this ADD so it seems. Kasey has had these moments and they get frustrating. Have you tried toys? If they are play motivated, that might work for you instead.

[Guest sja5032]

Teach him a trigger word or use a clicker. I use "yes" but many like clickers I just don't like the idea of always having to have it. You can condition the word by saying the word and treating repeatedly until he associates the word with a treat then start using it with training. Ask for a command, when the dog does the appropriate action say "yes" (or whatever you choose) then treat. Try to get it so you are not baiting with the treat, keep it in you pocket until the desired behavior and reward happens. The next step would be to do multiple commands with "yes" and treat after a few. This should help, but you still need to reward when you can I understand you can't always have food with you, so some good scritches are always a good substitute to help reinforce the behavior. If you want me to explain better, let me know I didn't want to go on forever!

[onrushpam]

This isn't an easy subject, which may be why you don't have many responses.

A few ideas:

 

I don't know where you are located, so can't make specific suggestions. But, try to find a good trainer in your area and sign up for a class or take a few private lessons. It will be well worth your time and $$. Look for a trainer who uses positive reinforcement, clickers, etc. Classes are all about training the human! The Trainer Search button on apdt.com is a good place to start.

 

Go to neversaynevergreyhounds and spend some time reading her training posts and watching her videos. She's an awesome trainer! Watch her intro to clicker training video and observe her technique/timing.

 

Ditto for patricia mcconnell Order her Family Friendly Dog Training booklet.

 

Don't show the treats. Put them in your pocket or in a pouch. Palm one tiny treat, or hold it in your mouth. (This is unless you are still at the stage of luring the dog into a sit or down, etc.)

 

Remember that you need to reward 100% of the time until the dog in responding to the command instantly 100% of the time before you start to fade the rewards. Then, you fade sssslllooowwwlllyyy! You go from 100% to 99% to 98%, etc., etc... The rewards can never go away. It becomes like a slot machine for the dog. He'll keep "pulling the handle" as long as he knows there is a chance the treat will appear.

 

Don't get in a hurry! It takes many, many repetitions before you can even think about fading the reward. For difficult tasks, like recalls, retrieving, etc., it can take 100s or 1000s of repetitions before you start to fade the reward. Competitive obedience trainers use a technique called "back chaining". The dog must perform a number of complex behviors, all strung together, without edible rewards, toys, etc. So, you train each task individually, then start to string them together. You start with the last one, with the reward always coming at the end. Then, you add the next-to-last and string it with the last one, with the reward always coming at the end... working backwards, until you have the whole string. But, the dog always knows the reward will come at the end. And, you periodically throw a surprise reward in at random places. Keep that "slot machine" primed.

 

Working dogs that perform very difficult tasks (search and rescue, drug sniffing, etc.) are always rewarded, 100% of the time!

 

Hope that helps

 

edited to fix the links

Edited October 21, 2011 by onrushpam

[BatterseaBrindl]

We've owned mulitple dogs for years...

Some are 'easy' ...some are 'hard'...then there are Greyhounds!

 

It sounds like you have not had Howie for very long.

Keep in mind it will take him at least 6 months to REALLY settle into your house and routine.

If he's learned to 'down' then leave it at that for a while. You don't want to overwhelm him. Figuring out how to live in a house with humans is a 'trick' in itself.

 

As far as treats/lures...you may have to use them for a very long time. A very long time.

Our last Dobe - a super, super smart gal - was very difficult to wean from treats and I changed her over to the clicker, with great success.

 

What 'command' are you trying to teach?

Examine 'why' are you teaching it? Is it something he needs to know for his safety?

Or is it just a trick?

 

Wait/Stay/Come/Here/Down are necessary.

Sit/roll over/fetch are tricks.

 

The first thing I teach is 'wait' or 'stay'...for safety reasons.

I do not use treats/lures for this. Just hand signals and my voice. And the VOG if needed.

 

If you are getting frustrated, it may be time to find a good trainer.

 

And...the above mentioned links are excellent.

[Batmom]

Don't show the treats. Put them in your pocket or in a pouch. Palm one tiny treat, or hold it in your mouth. (This is unless you are still at the stage of luring the dog into a sit or down, etc.)

 

Remember that you need to reward 100% of the time until the dog in responding to the command instantly 100% of the time before you start to fade the rewards. Then, you fade sssslllooowwwlllyyy! You go from 100% to 99% to 98%, etc., etc... The rewards can never go away. It becomes like a slot machine for the dog. He'll keep "pulling the handle" as long as he knows there is a chance the treat will appear.

 

.... Competitive obedience trainers use a technique called "back chaining". The dog must perform a number of complex behviors, all strung together, without edible rewards, toys, etc. So, you train each task individually, then start to string them together. You start with the last one, with the reward always coming at the end. Then, you add the next-to-last and string it with the last one, with the reward always coming at the end... working backwards, until you have the whole string. But, the dog always knows the reward will come at the end. And, you periodically throw a surprise reward in at random places. Keep that "slot machine" primed.

 

This is @ what I do. For the most part, I use treats as reward rather than lure. If you haven't done that or if you're just starting to chain behaviors, it can help to get the dog all jazzed up -- do a couple easy commands, each with a nice reward, really really fast ... then two in a row with a reward only on the last one ... etc.

 

One thing that is hard for many people (it was for me), is to be excited and happy in your training sessions. Big smile. Jazzed up, excited tone of voice for all the instructions/commands and "Good dog!"s. Short bouncy steps. Happy happy happy. Makes a huge difference. As do hot dogs :lol .

 

Best luck, and don't forget that the two of you should always have fun!

[onrushpam]

One thing that is hard for many people (it was for me), is to be excited and happy in your training sessions. Big smile. Jazzed up, excited tone of voice for all the instructions/commands and "Good dog!"s. Short bouncy steps. Happy happy happy. Makes a huge difference. As do hot dogs :lol .

 

Absolutely! Watch Jennifer's videos on NeverSayNever. Look at how happy and enthusiastic her dogs are about training! Jennifer is a hard-a&^% with her dogs, in comparison to most people. But, they see training as a game. She has posts on there about how to manage two dogs, with one having to wait while the other trains. Her dogs WANT to train! You can't get an unhappy dog to a Utility Dog title or a Master Agility Champion title. They have to learn to love the work. I learned that the hard way with my first greyhound. After she had the first two "legs" (qualifying scores) on her Companion Dog title, I realized she was miserable in the ring. We took six months off and learned how to PLAY together! Then, we went back to training. (Well, it was all training, but with a new attitude.)

 

 

 

[krissy]

For certain behaviours I always reward and always will. For us it's recall and retrieving. Retrieving is not so inherently rewarding for most greyhounds that they will do it just because they find it fun. I've taught Summit to enjoy retrieving and he'll get really excited now when I take out a toy. And it's not because he likes toys. He has a dozen that he never ever plays with unless I bring one out to play fetch. He gets excited now because he's gotten so many rewards and excited, happy praise that he thinks it's just wonderful. But he still always gets a treat.

 

Recall is too important to not reward. We do lots of recall training and LOTS of rewards.

 

For things that aren't so important I start fading rewards. I still reward more often than not, but if we're out for a walk and I forgot my treat pouch I know he'll still obey.

[Guest jbbuzby]

I'd also suggest looking into some of Tamar Geller's techniques (Her book is "The Loved Dog"), combine them with a bit of pack leadership and fun, and you should have your problem solved. It's important to practice some commands that your dog should do no matter what. Embrace the "nothing in life is free" ideology; for your grey to get anything he must DO something for it. Breakfast? Better sit/lay down and stay. For a pet? A sit. Want to go out for a walk? Have them sit or down before you put on the leash. Anything that the dog enjoys, make them work for it. If he ignores you, let out a very loud sigh and say "OH WELL, TOOOOOO BAD" and turn your back, ignoring the dog. That might get his attention!

 

As for treats, you can try wearing a fanny pack or treat pack and have it on you at all times, often with nothing in it. That way, he'll get used to you having it, so you can randomly surprise him with a treat reward, going off the "lottery" idea. Do say something like "yes!" to let the dog know they did what you want and give lots of praise, but always give the treat after they've performed the behavior...don't show him what you have first, since that's a bribe and won't help you in real life (as you've found out!). Good luck!

[Guest NeverSayNever]

I see that this is a really old question, but it is a common one so I'll answer.

 

I teach mine to respond to no food in my hand by making it more rewarding than when I have food in my hand. So the first time I ask for a down without food in my hand, often my greyhound will respond simply because it has worked before... well, if I don't reward it, my greyhound quickly realizes that its best not to respond to such requests (they aren't stupid :-).

 

So initially, I may ask for a down without food, but then I reach into my pocket and give 3 treats. So my greyhound quickly realizes that no treat in my hand is really not different than when I do have food in my hand... in fact it might be better because I reward it more heavily. After lots and lots of reps, I reward for some. I might reward the down stay.

 

For a greyhound that has already been trained not to respond to an empty hand signal, just sit on the floor (comfortable floor), put the greyhound on leash and use the leash to keep him right there, and then just watch TV for the next half hour. When greyhound finally gets tired of standing there and lies down, JACKPOT! Get him up and immediately do it again. Remember to have the treats in your pocket or close by.

 

Another tip is to also teach your greyhound to respond to collar pressure. On a greyhound that is familiar with luring into a down, I will apply a little collar pressure as I lure down with a treat. This teaches the greyhound how to respond to the pressure (as you know they then to lock up). Later you can use the collar pressure as a gentle correction when you are being ignored. Greyhound refuses to down and you apply the collar pressure to make it happen.... but it is very important that you teach them how to respond to the pressure long before you need it. If you try to make your greyhound down with collar pressure out of frustration, you will get into an awful battle. So take the time to teach your greyhound that pressure is something to yield to.

 

Lastly, when you work on stays... a lot of folks will accidentally teach their greyhounds to pop up... they pop up, so you will ask them to down and give them another treat. So if I have a dog that is popping up, I will lure him down with a treat, but I don't give it to him. I stand up, maybe step back or to the side, and then give the treat for his stay. I want him to know the stay is better.