Got A Diagnosis For Beth's Digestive Issues

[PrairieProf]

Beth has always had a sensitive stomach, and has been having some further problems in the past few weeks -- not counting the "didn't want to eat her kibble" spell a month or two back, a couple of weeks ago she had sudden-onset diarrhea (a few days after I started adding salmon oil to her food) that got better on Hill's I/D and 3 days of flagyl but relapsed last week after she was transitioned back onto her regular food. Early this week I took her for the blood test to check for EPI (exocrine pancreatic insufficiency) and SIBO (small intestinal bacterial overgrowth), and to have a fecal culture and cytology done.

 

Results came back today -- her folate and cobalamin levels (measuring for SIBO) were fine, as was her fecal culture. But her TLI (pancreas) test was not low as for EPI but borderline *high* -- the normal range is 5-35; over 35 indicates acute pancreatitis (or renal dysfunction or malnutrition, neither of which she has). Hers was 33.8, so sort of knocking on the door of pancreatitis I guess, according to my vet.

 

He wants me to keep her on I/D and flagyl for a month (she's been on both for a week now) and we'll retest the TLI then. If it's lower, I can transition her to a non-prescription food, but it still needs to be low fat and (according to him; I don't get this) lowish protein.

 

I'm a little shaken to find she has a real medical condition, but relieved to know what we've probably been dealing with since I got her -- without having her go into a full case of pancreatitis to learn it! And it does seem like this will be simpler to manage than IBD, which is always what we thought she tended towards. It makes sense since most of her "D" incidents that I recall have been linked to consuming some extra fat (like salmon oil, sigh).

 

Any experience with all of this? Can you reassure me Beth can be healthy (and have a decent coat) on a low-fat diet? (Please don't give me a lecture about the evils of Hill's prescription foods; there's nothing you can say I haven't read and worried about, but I'm trying hard to trust my vet here -- and the I/D certainly seems to be working poop-wise!) My vet is pretty insistent that I should use only a food that has actually been AAFCO tested, which seems to knock out most foods anyone thinks are high quality, but I've got a month to figure out what I'm going to propose in that department.

 

Meanwhile, she ran like an absolute nut at the dog park this morning, so she clearly feels pretty good. Guess no exciting food treats for her fifth birthday in a week, though.....

Edited March 12, 2011 by PrairieProf

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

I'm glad she is feeling better and it's nothing that can't be managed with diet.

 

As for advice, I have none.

[maggiespet]

Sorry but no experience so no advise. But hugs to you both. So glad to hear she's feeling great enough to run like the wind!

[Cully]

No advice just :bighug

[Guest mcsheltie]

They recommend low protein because high protein usually goes hand and hand with increased fat. But it is easy to make a homemade diet with a good protein level and low fat, since you control the ingredients. And can use higher quality ingredients that what you normally find in pet food.

[Batmom]

IIRC some of the Solid Gold foods are lower in fat, might check out their website.

 

Hope Beth does well!

[PrairieProf]

Yeah, not AAFCO tested with feeding trials though; I was just looking at them. I might have to go against my vet here ... seems like only the big commercial companies do feeding trials. It's weird, he's holistic in some ways (does acupuncture) but is very, very conventional when it comes to food.

[mychip1]

No advice...just well wishes.

[greyhead]

Here's a link to Wellness Core Reduced Fat. http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/product-details.aspx?pet=dog&pid=70#feeding-guidelines Our Shane eats it and does fine with energy and coat. (We took him off it and used the brand that our IBD dog eats, Natural Balance, but it wasn't working well for Shane. So after a year off of it, he's now back on the Wellness and doing much better!)

 

There are four tabs you can click on for info about this food; the tab I copied for you above is for Feeding Guidelines, and at the bottom of the page it says it's formulated to AAFCO standards, or guidelines, or whatever. I didn't see anything about feeding trials, but maybe it's in there somewhere.

 

Glad you caught it before you hit full-blown pancreatitis, as you said! All the best to you and sweet Beth.

[PrairieProf]

Thanks for the good wishes. The standards statement means no feeding trials, at least not formal ones, sigh. I'm thinking I might just lie to my vet when it comes to the point....

[Guest mcsheltie]

Yeah, not AAFCO tested with feeding trials though; I was just looking at them. I might have to go against my vet here ... seems like only the big commercial companies do feeding trials. It's weird, he's holistic in some ways (does acupuncture) but is very, very conventional when it comes to food.

Feeding trials are not what you think they are. They really are not worth the paper they are printed on. Only eight animals are required to participate in a six month trial. You can feed most unbalanced diet for six months and rarely will the animal show any signs of deficiency. Only six have to finish the trial. Two of them could die from the diet and the trial would still be successful. Blood is drawn after the trial, not before, so they don't have anything to base a comparison. Really the only thing they accurately measure is weight. And even with that, the animal can loose 15% of its body weight and the trial is successful. On an average Greyhound 15% would be 10 lbs. If any of our dogs lost 10 lbs we would be in a panic. But they would still qualify for a successful feeding trial.

[PrairieProf]

I don't think they mean much, but my vet does. So if I could find a food that was tested at least as the first thing to try, it would avoid conflict, but it's not my absolute priority.

 

Looks like California Naturals tests according to AAFCO procedures, so that might be something. At any rate, I think I need to stop obsessing about it right now, and focus on the good news that I know now how to keep Beth healthy and hopefully avoid recurring D incidents.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Lots of us have poor opinions of Hill's formulas, but I think we mostly dislike the results for dogs on the "generic" all-purpose Hill's. I've seen lots of people post favorably about results on the prescription formulas.

 

Our greyhound group's dogs at the kennel eat Hill's because that's just what the vet wants them to be fed. The dogs are never allowed treats; it seems like there's a round of diarrhea through the entire kenneled population if so much as one dog biscuit reaches one dog. And when the "healthy" kennel dogs poop, it's in large quantities of very soft stuff.

 

So we adopt a dog; and rather than buy a bag of awful Hill's so we can transition the adoptee gradually, we just throw a nice, quality food at the dog. Twenty-four hours later, we have decent poop and no diarrhea. (BTDT twice in my household.)

 

But that's the general-purpose Hill's. And I think that's the result lots of us have seen from Hill's. Between that result--and the ingredients label--many of us are underwhelmed by Hill's regular formula. But I've seen GTers praise various Hill's prescription formulas and if the I/D is working for Beth, that's the most important thing right now.

[Time4ANap]

We had to switch Rocket from TOTW due to digestive issues and watery poop.

 

He has been on Precise Foundation Chicken Meal and Rice for over 5 weeks and is doing fantastic. It is a limited ingredient food and very digestible. He lost a great deal of weight on the I/D food, and is now back where he needs to be. We tried this food because it is the "house food" at the Greyhound Boarding facility we use. They only board greyhounds and have had great success with this food with their own dogs, and a number of their customers have changed to it.

 

Rocket's coat is softer and fuller than it has ever been on this food. The only add-in he gets is a teaspoon of cottage cheese mixed with each meal just to add something to his kibble. No salmon oil or any other enhancement.

 

This food can be hard to find, but it is now in the newest distributor catalogs, so your local supplier can order it if they don't carry it. Cost is about $ 44.00 for a 40 lb bag.

 

The other thing I like about this food is that it's made by a family owned company in their own plant - not contracted out so they maintain control. I should also add that we had bad experiences with other chicken based foods and were leary of trying this, but as I said, no problems at all, and not a bad poop since we switched.

[PrairieProf]

Thanks, but she needs to be on a low fat food, like 10% fat max. She does seem to be losing weight (or not gaining back some she lost) on the I/D though, I'm noticing.

[Time4ANap]

Thanks, but she needs to be on a low fat food, like 10% fat max. She does seem to be losing weight (or not gaining back some she lost) on the I/D though, I'm noticing.

 

 

Maybe this? 9% Fat. They have a ton of products and formulas on their site.

 

Give Beth some extra ear rubs for us. Hope she's feeling better soon.

 

.

[EllenEveBaz]

At any rate, I think I need to stop obsessing about it right now, and focus on the good news that I know now how to keep Beth healthy and hopefully avoid recurring D incidents.

Remember that some of the people whose food research is the most respected on this board are the first to say that you should use whatever works best for an individual dog.

 

Just for my curiosity, how low a protein % is your vet recommending?

[Hubcitypam]

My vet is pretty insistent that I should use only a food that has actually been AAFCO tested, which seems to knock out most foods anyone thinks are high quality, but I've got a month to figure out what I'm going to propose in that department.

Ask your vet if there is a difference in "formulated" vs "tested" ????

 

Think every bag of kibble I've ever bought was AAFCO formulated, but looking closer only one I can see here has been tested and approved. That would be Purina Dog Chow. AAFCO tested and approved.according to the bag.

 

The Natural Balance Ultra Reduced Calorie is what Poodle has been doing well on for the last year after almost dying from pancratitis is 8% fat. It does not have powdered cellouse which was reason that I chose to feed it vs Hills and some other foods. Cellouse is usually wood pulp or peanut hulls (Hills used to say it was peanut hulls on the label on the tarter control and weight loss formulas until about three years ago).

Edited March 12, 2011 by Hubcitypam

[PrairieProf]

At any rate, I think I need to stop obsessing about it right now, and focus on the good news that I know now how to keep Beth healthy and hopefully avoid recurring D incidents.

Remember that some of the people whose food research is the most respected on this board are the first to say that you should use whatever works best for an individual dog.

 

Just for my curiosity, how low a protein % is your vet recommending?

 

Well, he didn't say specifically, as we're not dealing with the transition yet, but the dry I/D is listed at 22% protein, 9% fat on the bag, so I assume he means something comparable. There are lots of commercial foods in the 20% protein/10% fat range, so that shouldn't be a problem -- I would have a problem going under 20%.

 

Thanks for the reassurance. Beth is my first dog and I have so wanted to do right by her. Figuring out what works for Beth was tricky -- it took us a good while to find anything that worked for her as well as TOTW did, though I'm hoping more foods might work better if they were low fat. Just because she has the pancreatic issue doesn't mean she doesn't have other food issues, I realize! I'm actually surprised she has good output on the I/D, but she does -- not super-firm but small and formed. I'm still in the process of adding dry I/D in -- I want to feed a mix of the dry and canned. I like the canned ingredients better, but it gets crazy how much you go through for a greyhound-sized dog.

Edited March 12, 2011 by PrairieProf

[PrairieProf]

My vet is pretty insistent that I should use only a food that has actually been AAFCO tested, which seems to knock out most foods anyone thinks are high quality, but I've got a month to figure out what I'm going to propose in that department.

Ask your vet if there is a difference in "formulated" vs "tested" ????

 

Think every bag of kibble I've ever bought was AAFCO formulated, but looking closer only one I can see here has been tested and approved. That would be Purina Dog Chow. AAFCO tested and approved.according to the bag.

 

 

I know, it's ridiculous, but he thinks it makes a difference, that you can't trust the ingredients in food from companies that don't test or something. Seems like big companies do test -- Hills, Purina, Iams, and it seems like Natura (now part of P&G, I know) does. Need more time to look further. (I do know your stance on Iams as a miracle food for poop and might in fact consider the low-fat version. )

 

My current thought: I've found a local vet who at least per his website sells holistic pet foods at his office and seems to promote them (Solid Gold, California Natural, TOTW and maybe others). I think I will try to make an appointment for a consultation with him in the coming weeks, and see his thoughts on the AAFCO issue and what food would be good for a dog like Beth. That way I could at least have a vet recommendation to back me up.

[MaryJane]

They recommend low protein because high protein usually goes hand and hand with increased fat. But it is easy to make a homemade diet with a good protein level and low fat, since you control the ingredients. And can use higher quality ingredients that what you normally find in pet food.

 

 

i agree with considering a home-made diet. You can control the ingredients like protein and fat much easier and even make small adjustments depending on how blood/urine results come back. You can spend a few hours and make enough for a whole week and the cost does not have to be much more that good quality kibble.

 

I would recommend going to a nutritional vet to formulate a diet. The one I have used is Dr Remaillard at Angel Memorial in Boston and I've always been very satisfied. She does phone consults (with you or your vet) and the fees seem to be reasonable - also she used to be available for follow-ups to adjust diets but, I don't know if she still does that. I think your vet would be confident in her abilities to prescribe an appropriate diet for Beth's medical condition because in my opinion, Dr Remaillard is a traditional vet and goes with the "tried and true" rather than "new and unproven" and her diets reflect that.

 

The web site is:

 

http://www.mspca.org/vet-services/angell-boston/nutrition/

 

Good Luck

[krissn333]

Anne, when I transitioned Sutra to kibble from mushy foods (after a serious bout with pancreatitis), I put him on Solid Gold Wolf King Link

 

It's low in fat but still has 22% protein...and while it's not grain free, it's a very good quality food. Sutra did well on it. After he ate that for about 6 months, I switched him to TOTW like the other pups and he did fine.

 

His pancreatitis was an ongoing health issue that required monitoring, and he did have some flare ups from time to time, but we were able to catch them and calm everything down before it got serious.

 

I think I'd start with something home cooked and either stick with it, or try something like the Solid Gold. She may someday be able to go back to the TOTW once the inflammation is taken care of.

[PrairieProf]

Thanks Kristin. The Wolf King looks like something Beth would like -- she loves bison. I really like the idea of home-cooked as an addition (as I was adding raw before), but would probably want some portion of kibble to make sure all the vitamins etc. were getting covered.

 

I'm glad you had experience of a dog who did well with this condition (and of course Beth hasn't had acute pancreatitis). Beth seems so healthy and vigorous in most ways, I want her to stay that way as long as possible!

Edited March 12, 2011 by PrairieProf

[krissn333]

Sutra always made it pretty clear when he was starting to feel a bit iffy too...it wasn't uncommon for him to not want to eat ALL of his breakfast, but, if he didn't eat dinner as well and then skipped breakfast altogether the next day, I would know that we were looking at a flare up. He would also get just a little bit mopey and that was a signal too. You'll notice things with Beth too

[Hubcitypam]

I know, it's ridiculous, but he thinks it makes a difference, that you can't trust the ingredients in food from companies that don't test or something. Seems like big companies do test -- Hills, Purina, Iams, and it seems like Natura (now part of P&G, I know) does. Need more time to look further. (I do know your stance on Iams as a miracle food for poop and might in fact consider the low-fat version. )

FWIW the green bag does not say tested - it just says fomulated. I have one sitting on my washer now.

Hope you find something that works.

I do like the Natural Balance. Went to Wellness Core reduced fat for a while but it was really pricey and I couldn't see any difference in his glucose #s (he is the double whammy with pancreatitis and diabetes)..