Should I Let Him Back On The Bed?

[AEB]

Last weekend Kevin decided to take his snuggling to the next level. He had been putting his front legs and body on the bed for hugs and kisses (He is a total lover!). But Saturday he decided to crawl into bed and plop himself down. We were surprised and did not kick him off. (We had not allowed Sadie in the bed because she would sleep startle, she growled and snapped twice, and also hogged the bed without really cuddling). So the next four days or so continued with the pattern of Kevin crawling into bed in the morning for snuggle time and leaving when one of us got up, and again getting some snuggle time in the evening.

 

Tuesday night it was time to go to sleep and we told him not to get on the bed (he had previously shown no interest in late night cuddles). He was determined to sleep with us. After about ten minutes of directing him back to his bed and blocking ours he got the hint and sulked.

 

Wednesday morning he was in bed with me and I was on the computer. And I was not letting him shove his feet into me, I was pushing them away. He got off and got back up a while later at the end/foot of the bed. For some reason he was very gassy. I decided to give him a piece of some generic Gas-X. He was at the foot of the bed. I leaned forward to hand it to him and he curled his lips back and appeared to growl. There was background noise so I did not hear it distinctly and maybe it had no noise, but I saw it. I told him "no" and ordered him off the bed and used the Gas-X goodie to entice him. He has not been allowed on since.

 

I guess I am debating how to handle the situation. He is a sweet boy and we liked snuggling with him. And he liked being close to us. And he appears to miss it. But he puts his face right in my face and is not very respectful with space (pushes his Frito feet in my face and chest a lot- He almost took out one of my eyes with a toenail). I hate to end up being bitten in the face.

 

I am looking for suggestions. I don't know if I should train him to come up on command and command only, and also train him "off"? If there is other training I should do? Or if I should just keep him off the bed? And, any suggestions as to how to keep him from flailing around so much and being so pushy in my space and endangering my eyes? Thank you in advance for all replies!

[Guest Swifthounds]

It sounds to me like perhaps you haven't had him long? If he isn't respectful of your space or your rules, allowing him on the bed at this point is asking for trouble.

 

Tuesday night it was time to go to sleep and we told him not to get on the bed (he had previously shown no interest in late night cuddles). He was determined to sleep with us. After about ten minutes of directing him back to his bed and blocking ours he got the hint and sulked.

 

The first thing any dog needs in order to feel secure is a good, solid understanding of the rules. The above incident reinforced to him that if he insists, you'll give in. Whether you want him on the bed or not, you do not want to teach him to forcibly insist on something you don't want him to do. Same thing with him pancaking and pushing you with his feet - pushing back makes it a game.

 

Teach him to come onto the bed only when invited and teach him to get off the bed when that invitation is revoked and you'll all be much happier. When he pushes or insists, a simple command to get off the bed solves the issue. He'll learn that being on the bed is a privilege that can be revoked anytime his behavior is not acceptable.

[Guest TBSFlame]

If one of mine did that they would not be allowed on the bed.

[GeorgeofNE]

Are you completely positive the "curled lip" wasn't him smiling?? If you've never had a dog who did this, it's easily mistaken for something else.

 

I'm just throwin' that out there!

[AEB]

It sounds to me like perhaps you haven't had him long? If he isn't respectful of your space or your rules, allowing him on the bed at this point is asking for trouble.

 

Tuesday night it was time to go to sleep and we told him not to get on the bed (he had previously shown no interest in late night cuddles). He was determined to sleep with us. After about ten minutes of directing him back to his bed and blocking ours he got the hint and sulked.

 

The first thing any dog needs in order to feel secure is a good, solid understanding of the rules. The above incident reinforced to him that if he insists, you'll give in. Whether you want him on the bed or not, you do not want to teach him to forcibly insist on something you don't want him to do. Same thing with him pancaking and pushing you with his feet - pushing back makes it a game.

 

Teach him to come onto the bed only when invited and teach him to get off the bed when that invitation is revoked and you'll all be much happier. When he pushes or insists, a simple command to get off the bed solves the issue. He'll learn that being on the bed is a privilege that can be revoked anytime his behavior is not acceptable.

 

We've had him two months. Let me know if I mis-understand any of your post. I just want to clarify that he did NOT sleep with us that night. Also, I think you had a typo, I'm not sure if "pancaking" meant panicking, but if so, he's pushing with his feet, he's making himself very relaxed, stretching and taking over the space and shoving me to get comfy! I'm just trying to remove them because those toenails lodged into my body are very painful and I need to be able to move my arms! But it sounds like the way to go is training "up" and "off" and then any time he missteps (or shoves his feet into me) making him get off. Should I make him wait any longer to begin this training?

 

 

 

[Guest Swifthounds]

We've had him two months. Let me know if I mis-understand any of your post. I just want to clarify that he did NOT sleep with us that night. Also, I think you had a typo, I'm not sure if "pancaking" meant panicking, but if so, he's pushing with his feet, he's making himself very relaxed, stretching and taking over the space and shoving me to get comfy! I'm just trying to remove them because those toenails lodged into my body are very painful and I need to be able to move my arms!

 

Until he can reliably get on and off the bed at your instruction, he should not be allowed on the bed, except for when you're working on training. This will help to reinforce the training and that doing as you request is the easiest way for him to get his reward (being on the bed). Any time he is on the bed is teaching him about being on the bed. You want to restrict "bed privileges" to during training until he gets the hang of what you want - otherwise you risk unintentionally un-training what you're training.

 

Pancaking is one of those "greyhound terms" for exactly what you've described - when they lay down, get very relaxed, and start stretching and taking over the space, possibly shoving you to get comfortable. Touching and laying up against one another is one thing. Shoving is another thing entirely. It commonly leads to shoving back - making a nice game out of making others uncomfortable - or clashes between dogs or people in the middle of the night.

 

But it sounds like the way to go is training "up" and "off" and then any time he missteps (or shoves his feet into me) making him get off. Should I make him wait any longer to begin this training?

 

Start training ASAP. The sooner/more you teach and reinforce the behavior you want, the sooner you stop reinforcing undesirable behavior and actions you don't want. Remember, he's probably never shared sleeping space before, so he doesn't know the rules. It's your job to teach them so that everyone is safe and happy.

[TheFullHouse]

I agree with Swifthounds on this one. I also want to address Susan's comments about smilers, because if you've never seen a greyhound that smiles, you would think they were snarling at you. The difference between greyhounds that smile and those that are snarling is usually there is no sound from a smiler and it's done because they're excited.

 

Do Bee is a smiler. He was very happy in this picture.

 

[Guest Swifthounds]

OMG Just when I thought Do Bee couldn't get any cuter! :wub:

 

Smiling seems quite common in brindles. My Prancer was a huge smiler and would smile on request. Blitzen, also a brindle, didn't smile at first, but he sure does now. I've been teaching him to smile on request and so far we're about 50/50 on it, but only when he's happy/excited already.

 

Hijack over.

[AEB]

I agree with Swifthounds on this one. I also want to address Susan's comments about smilers, because if you've never seen a greyhound that smiles, you would think they were snarling at you. The difference between greyhounds that smile and those that are snarling is usually there is no sound from a smiler and it's done because they're excited.

 

Do Bee is a smiler. He was very happy in this picture.

 

 

Oh he's a wicked smiler too! I am very familiar with smiling. (But have never caught one of Sadie's or Kevin's one camera!).

 

Nope, wasn't a smile. His lips were pulled back along the sides, like a growl.

 

Edit: BTW-WHat a cutie Pie!! (Could I control hitting "Post" for once??)

Edited February 12, 2011 by AEB

[cleptogrey]

not sure if you are getting smile or lip!

this is my scenario, compare:

annie came to us a year ago, pretty shy and it's taken her an entire year to get up on the couch. she tries to cuddle and hang out but any movement what so ever...go for my cup of tea, turning the page of the newspaper, answering the phone.... has made her snap or growl. i know it's since she is not the most secure pup in the world, she still jumps if something like a remote control falls off a table. so, off the couch for annie. i don't want to take any chances of being bit. she is loving, always at my side, leans up against me, but her behavior is not"appropiate" in that situation. she has also growled and snapped at felix when he stretches on the couch even though he hasn't touched her.

a bed next to the couch and a cookie are what she gets, everyone is safe and comfortable.

Edited February 12, 2011 by cleptogrey

[AEB]

not sure if you are getting smile or lip!

this is my scenario, compare:

annie came to us a year ago, pretty shy and it's taken her an entire year to get up on the couch. she tries to cuddle and hang out but any movement what so ever...go for my cup of tea, turning the page of the newspaper, answering the phone.... has made her snap or growl. i know it's since she is not the most secure pup in the world, she still jumps if something like a remote control falls off a table. so, off the couch for annie. i don't want to take any chances of being bit. she is loving, always at my side, leans up against me, but her behavior is not"appropiate" in that situation. she has also growled and snapped at felix when he stretches on the couch even though he hasn't touched her.

a bed next to the couch and a cookie are what she gets, everyone is safe and comfortable.

 

Well, Kevin is pretty relaxed and secure in many ways (he doesn't like being alone, but that's another story for another thread). Loud noises (dropping pans, thunderstorms, etc.) do not phase him. My husband questions whether it was a growl (BUT he was not there) because Kevin has no space issues and is such a lover. All I can do is report what I saw and how I instinctively interpreted it. I have been growled at before by Sadie. And Kevin has growled at my husband twice resource guarding (stuffies). We've done trading-up and it worked very well. I may have also seen this silent growl/pre-growl with a new toy with him twice when I did not have something to trade. I felt he was growling but did not hear anything. But he grabbed and held the toy and and stared at it and I saw the lips pull back as in the earliest stage of a growl. So I went to get something to trade. That is why I feel it was a growl.

 

I will have to work on training and update this thread. But I welcome suggestions in the meantime!

[Guest iconsmum]

that thing about your instinctive reaction is interesting - we are, all, animal first, if your gut tells you it was a growl, my money says it was...off the bed he goes. It's not such a big issue - mine are permanently off the furniture because they grump about being nudged and I too don't want to live with a dog that I accidentally set up to bite me...I thought your reasoning was quite solid

[AEB]

We're trying to teach "up", "off", "move", and "bed" (as in "to your bed") before he gets invited back up. We started with some up/off training using the sofa yesterday. It did not go so well. Kevin takes a while to understand things sometimes and did not understand I was asking him up. The few times he got up he was good with the "off". So, I think I need to be clearer with my training signals. I am going to pick different ones that I think will be easier for him to understand. I need also to maybe get a clicker too to help me mark the behavior.

 

When he is as good with these commands as he is with "down" he can try coming on the bed invited. He will have to get off at night and anytime he misbehaves, including pancaking (can't believe I never heard that greyhound term sometime in the last 10+ years!!).

[cleptogrey]

reading your post and the mention of trading up makes me think. when i have taken obedience classes(way too many, one would think i would be trained by now!), we did trading up in teaching release, but there NEVER was a growl or slightly agressive behavior.if the pup was playing, wagging it's tail during a trade, the play had to stop and the dog needed to be calm and settled, then the exchange.

 

is exchange what you are really looking for?

Edited February 13, 2011 by cleptogrey

[countrypaws]

I think you are wise to err on the side of caution and assume Kevin was getting aggressive or possessive or territorial with his gestures,whether he growled or not. My approach is always to say you are off the bed if you show any unpleasantness.

 

Many dogs will growl at a human coming to take up space on the bed at one time or another, especially new dogs or dogs new to bed sharing, but we have chosen not to tolerate it and not to allow the dog on the bed until he learns that the bed is ours and he enjoys the privilege at our pleasure.

 

I think you also have to be careful not to send mixed messages. Giving Kevin a GasX "treat" after he may have growled at you to get him off the bed is a mixed message. I would not reward a dog who had just exhibited aggressive behavior. We make our dogs get off the bed if they show any signs of being territorial and that's it. No trading, no negotiation, no treats, get down now. Just a firm voice and pointing at the floor usually works for us. Our two males are very meek and respectful about getting on the bed, and get down immediately when asked. That's the only way I could live with a bunch of greyhounds.

 

I also think that dogs who are sleep aggressive or snap at movements in the night just are not good candidates for bed sharing. I think we have to realize that not all dogs are snugglers -- or at least safe snugglers -- or bed-sharers, and accept that.

 

One of my saddest greyhound experiences was a female greyhound that took over her owners bed and growled and snapped at her more and more until the dog would not allow her owner in the bed. So the owner slept elsewhere and gave up her bed to the dog. Eventually this greyhound became intractable, snapped and bit anyone who came close, and had to be euthanized.

[AEB]

I think you are wise to err on the side of caution and assume Kevin was getting aggressive or possessive or territorial with his gestures,whether he growled or not. My approach is always to say you are off the bed if you show any unpleasantness.

 

Many dogs will growl at a human coming to take up space on the bed at one time or another, especially new dogs or dogs new to bed sharing, but we have chosen not to tolerate it and not to allow the dog on the bed until he learns that the bed is ours and he enjoys the privilege at our pleasure.

 

I think you also have to be careful not to send mixed messages. Giving Kevin a GasX "treat" after he may have growled at you to get him off the bed is a mixed message. I would not reward a dog who had just exhibited aggressive behavior. We make our dogs get off the bed if they show any signs of being territorial and that's it. No trading, no negotiation, no treats, get down now. Just a firm voice and pointing at the floor usually works for us. Our two males are very meek and respectful about getting on the bed, and get down immediately when asked. That's the only way I could live with a bunch of greyhounds.

 

I also think that dogs who are sleep aggressive or snap at movements in the night just are not good candidates for bed sharing. I think we have to realize that not all dogs are snugglers -- or at least safe snugglers -- or bed-sharers, and accept that.

 

One of my saddest greyhound experiences was a female greyhound that took over her owners bed and growled and snapped at her more and more until the dog would not allow her owner in the bed. So the owner slept elsewhere and gave up her bed to the dog. Eventually this greyhound became intractable, snapped and bit anyone who came close, and had to be euthanized.

 

That is very sad. I did not mean to reward him with the "treat" I think I was shocked that he growled and just wanted to get him off the bed because he did not respond immediately to a verbal command so i used the bribe available to me. It was a mixed message. Generally he is very sweet and I think with training he will be able to spend some time snuggling. But he will not be sleeping with us. If he was a sleep startler I would not even entertain it.

[NevadasMom]

I suggest no bed privileges unless invited by you. I've had 2 incidents of growling/snapping with Trolley & both were bed involved. She thought she could take over my space. She was very wrong. Each time that she has tried this I go back to reinforcing NILIF. No bed snuggling unless I initiate it & it's only for a few minutes & then she is off the bed. Works for us & no growls since. Good luck...

[kudzu]

That is very sad. I did not mean to reward him with the "treat" I think I was shocked that he growled and just wanted to get him off the bed because he did not respond immediately to a verbal command so i used the bribe available to me. 

We do what we need to in the moment to keep everyone safe. Your action was appropriate for that situation. The take home message, which you certainly seem to understand, is that it was a hopefully one time management strategy & not how you will train "Off". Overall this sounds like a temporary glitch. There was a miscommunication that your are now working to resolve. He is a lucky hound to have caring people who want to build a relationship based on respect, trust & good communications established through training. All dogs should be so blessed.

[AEB]

Anyone have suggestions as to how best train "up", "off", "move" and "bed" as in "to your bed"? I want to make sure before we go much further we are doing it in the best possible way.

 

So far I have been using the couch as the training tool (no bed involved!). I have been sitting on the sofa with a treat in hand and using hand signals combined with the commands. We have worked on "up" and "off". Patting the surface we want him on. Reward once up. And then making him lay down once he is on. Reward for down. Then I have been needing to stand to get him to get off. Pointing at the ground seems to be clearest and saying off. Reward once we are off. I would like to be able to continue to sit and to be able to get him off without my moving.

 

I think the most difficult to teach will be "move". As in "move over". I think he will enjoy this new training. Thank you to all who respond!

[dante2zoe]

When I need Goose to move off my pillow and to his spot at the foot of the bed, I call his name and pat where he is supposed to go. He usually needs about three tries to get there because he really isn't ready to give up his warm spot. He learned it pretty quickly because, otherwise, he lost privileges. He isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but he learned that one quickly! Mty boy likes his comfort, I guess.

 

 

[sobesmom]

I only read your initial comment, not other posters, but my feeling is - when you're dealing with the bed - do what feels right. It's YOUR place for rest. If you felt uncomfortable - kick the dog off for a while. Try it again in a week.

 

I don't mind dogs in my bed - but it's got to be on MY terms. It's simple - until you're comfortable - no problem saying "off".

[GeorgeofNE]

OMG Just when I thought Do Bee couldn't get any cuter! :wub:

 

Smiling seems quite common in brindles. My Prancer was a huge smiler and would smile on request. Blitzen, also a brindle, didn't smile at first, but he sure does now. I've been teaching him to smile on request and so far we're about 50/50 on it, but only when he's happy/excited already.

 

Hijack over.

 

Interesting--George (a brindle) is a HUGE smiler. Smiles at the mailman. Smiles at people getting in their cars. Smiles at my parents. It's adorable.

 

However, his father, Oshkosh Slammer, a black dog, was a known smiling fool. George has several half siblings on GT that all smile too.

[AEB]

OMG Just when I thought Do Bee couldn't get any cuter! :wub:

 

Smiling seems quite common in brindles. My Prancer was a huge smiler and would smile on request. Blitzen, also a brindle, didn't smile at first, but he sure does now. I've been teaching him to smile on request and so far we're about 50/50 on it, but only when he's happy/excited already.

 

Hijack over.

 

Interesting--George (a brindle) is a HUGE smiler. Smiles at the mailman. Smiles at people getting in their cars. Smiles at my parents. It's adorable.

 

However, his father, Oshkosh Slammer, a black dog, was a known smiling fool. George has several half siblings on GT that all smile too.

 

Kevin is Red but is also a smilin' fool. smiles at everyone he meets!

 

 

 

[countrypaws]

Our dogs are odd about moving once on the bed. Sometimes one will lay in my spot when it's bedtime. I pat the middle of the bed between where our feet are and Caesar moves right down where I pat. Sometimes he has to be asked twice if he is especially warm and comfortable. Homer moves partway down so there's room. He just doesn't seem to understand as well. These habits just grew over time without any concentrated training. If they both are on the bed, Homer gets down. (No room for two dogs and us.) He looks really nervous until I ask him to get down and he just hops down. Seems to know the drill.

 

Another oddity is if I put my hand under either of them to get them to move a little, they get upset and hop down right away off the bed, even if I just wanted them to move a foot. But if we get under the covers and move them by pressure with our leg or body they adjust and they are fine with it.

 

Pack leaders often control other dogs by physical presence. They block the other dog from where he wants to go. No barking, no biting just physical blocking. I find that a handy tool to keep them where I want them without saying a word. They seem to understand it. Get next to them and gently move into them. They adjust. Nothing threatening.

 

We got new leather furniture and made the decision to keep all dogs off them. We have a new greyhound mix, Bailey, who had been sleeping on our fabric couch whenever he wanted for about three months. First time he jumped up on the leather sofa we said "No' on a loud voice and pushed him off onto the floor. He waited a moment and hopped back up, and we said "No" again and made him get down. He was confused and a little frightened at first due to the sudden change. That was two weeks ago and since then he has looked at the couch a couple times, but we say "No" and he goes and curls up on a pillow. He seems very bright and gets the change.

 

He now seems comfortable on whatever floor pillow is available. We are enjoying our new leather furniture with no dog scratches...at least for now.

[NeylasMom]

We're trying to teach "up", "off", "move", and "bed" (as in "to your bed") before he gets invited back up. We started with some up/off training using the sofa yesterday. It did not go so well. Kevin takes a while to understand things sometimes and did not understand I was asking him up. The few times he got up he was good with the "off". So, I think I need to be clearer with my training signals. I am going to pick different ones that I think will be easier for him to understand. I need also to maybe get a clicker too to help me mark the behavior.

 

When he is as good with these commands as he is with "down" he can try coming on the bed invited. He will have to get off at night and anytime he misbehaves, including pancaking (can't believe I never heard that greyhound term sometime in the last 10+ years!!).

Your boy sounds a lot like my Zuri. He was never allowed on the furniture because it was Neyla's space, until I recently decided to let him once she passed away. He was doing really well with it for the first few weeks (surprisingly well really) but we've recently had a few isolated growls and the shoving is starting. Frankly, I think it's much harder to teach a dog like Zuri to get on the furniture than it is to teach him to get off so if yours is anything like mine, don't be too hard on yourself.

 

I think you are wise to err on the side of caution and assume Kevin was getting aggressive or possessive or territorial with his gestures,whether he growled or not. My approach is always to say you are off the bed if you show any unpleasantness.

 

Many dogs will growl at a human coming to take up space on the bed at one time or another, especially new dogs or dogs new to bed sharing, but we have chosen not to tolerate it and not to allow the dog on the bed until he learns that the bed is ours and he enjoys the privilege at our pleasure.

 

I think you also have to be careful not to send mixed messages. Giving Kevin a GasX "treat" after he may have growled at you to get him off the bed is a mixed message. I would not reward a dog who had just exhibited aggressive behavior. We make our dogs get off the bed if they show any signs of being territorial and that's it. No trading, no negotiation, no treats, get down now. Just a firm voice and pointing at the floor usually works for us. Our two males are very meek and respectful about getting on the bed, and get down immediately when asked. That's the only way I could live with a bunch of greyhounds.

 

I also think that dogs who are sleep aggressive or snap at movements in the night just are not good candidates for bed sharing. I think we have to realize that not all dogs are snugglers -- or at least safe snugglers -- or bed-sharers, and accept that.

 

One of my saddest greyhound experiences was a female greyhound that took over her owners bed and growled and snapped at her more and more until the dog would not allow her owner in the bed. So the owner slept elsewhere and gave up her bed to the dog. Eventually this greyhound became intractable, snapped and bit anyone who came close, and had to be euthanized.

 

That is very sad. I did not mean to reward him with the "treat" I think I was shocked that he growled and just wanted to get him off the bed because he did not respond immediately to a verbal command so i used the bribe available to me. It was a mixed message. Generally he is very sweet and I think with training he will be able to spend some time snuggling. But he will not be sleeping with us. If he was a sleep startler I would not even entertain it.

I was actually going to applaud you for doing exactly the right thing in a moment of crisis. How else would you have gotten him off the bed? Grabbing his collar and pulling him? That's how people get bitten. Yelling/having a stand off? That's not good for your relationship with him. What you did was actually the way to teach "off" - it was the right thing to do.

 

Anyone have suggestions as to how best train "up", "off", "move" and "bed" as in "to your bed"? I want to make sure before we go much further we are doing it in the best possible way.

 

So far I have been using the couch as the training tool (no bed involved!). I have been sitting on the sofa with a treat in hand and using hand signals combined with the commands. We have worked on "up" and "off". Patting the surface we want him on. Reward once up. And then making him lay down once he is on. Reward for down. Then I have been needing to stand to get him to get off. Pointing at the ground seems to be clearest and saying off. Reward once we are off. I would like to be able to continue to sit and to be able to get him off without my moving.

 

I think the most difficult to teach will be "move". As in "move over". I think he will enjoy this new training. Thank you to all who respond!

Quit waiting for the behavior to reward him. When he's on the couch, throw the treat onto the floor (make sure he sees it). Say "off" right before you throw it. Make sure it's something so worthwhile that you know he's going to get off (I recommend cooked chicken, beef, hot dog, think human food). Click when his feet hit the floor, then let him have the treat as his reward. Same for getting him on the couch in reverse. "Up" or whatever command, toss the treat onto the couch, let him jump up, click and treat. I wouldn't worry about having him lay down in between. He already knows how to lay on the couch - the commands you are focused on are getting up when invited and getting off when asked. Once you have those basics, the others may fall into place. If not, you can worry about fine tuning later.

Edited February 16, 2011 by NeylasMom