Dog Who Panics At The Vet

[Guest jaws4evr]

Hi everyone

 

We have two dogs, one Pitty mix and one GH. The GH we’ve had her for over a year, and have only had one veterinary visit during that time (annual exam/vaccines).

 

Our GH is a bit of a shy girl, she has a tendancy to panic in certain situations. 90% of the time she’s friendly and happy. Knowing that she does panic sometimes, I brought her to the vet four times previous, when I brought the other pets there for their appointments at which time she got pets and treats and was totally relaxed.

 

When she went in for her exam, she was fine until the vet got down and started examining her, then were going to give her her vaccine in her hindquarters while she was being gently restrained. She reared up, flipped like a marlin on a fishing line, screamed like her skin was on fire, and fell over backwards.

 

The wrestling match continued for a while, eventually the dog crouched down in a “lay down”, still screaming at the top of her lungs, at which point the vet was able to vaccinate her.

 

So long story, but my question is, how should I proceed? In the past I’ve really liked this vet, but

 

1) should I find another vet?

2) should we go back and should I work with the vet to help the dog be more comfortable somehow? or just ride out her panic?

3) if I do look for another vet, how does one find out how skilled they are at handling fearful/difficult dogs? I doubt any vet would tell you “no, I do not excel at handling difficult dogs”.

 

In the meantime I’ve been working with the dog with restraint, holding her tightly and very still, and she’s been doing better, mind you she’s never had the fear response with us anyways. I’ve been practicing pinching her hindquarters a bit so the injection itself is not so much of a surprise, and she hasn’t shown any stress.

 

The other issue is, she has a dental cleaning that needs to be done in the near future, and I’m afraid that they’re not going to be able to start an IV on her without causing her way more stress than I’d like pre-surgery, not to mention causing her injury when she’s flailing in panic.

Edited February 2, 2011 by jaws4evr

[Sambuca]

Why was she restrained? When we go in the vet pets Bu then just pinches and vaccinates and he's never had a problem.

 

eta: I would switch vets. Restraining my dog when she was previously comfortable in the environment would make me very uncomfortable.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Sambuca

[Guest jaws4evr]

Why was she restrained? When we go in the vet pets Bu then just pinches and vaccinates and he's never had a problem.

 

eta: I would switch vets. Restraining my dog when she was previously comfortable in the environment would make me very uncomfortable.

 

The first try, that's what the vet attempted (pinch and stick without firmly holding her). The dog balked and skittered away though, she had already begun to spook during the physical exam part of the session, feeling around her abdomen, etc. The "restraint" involved the vet holding under her tuck-up, and the assistant holding her collar. Panic makes her strong Poor thing.

 

The next question is, is a different vet going to make her any less tense about the experiences? Perhaps a different person doing the handling would help, but it's still an unfamiliar person handling her.

 

I do like the suggestion though, no matter where we go I think it may be a good idea to discuss the pet/pinch/poke approach right at the beginning of the appointment.

[Sambuca]

Could you do the restraining next time instead of a vet tech? Usually at the vet if Bu needs to be held still I hold his head and talk to him which I think helps keep him calm. That way she isn't feeling threatened by strangers.

[Guest Swifthounds]

How much is she handled by you? By others?

 

I deliberately handle all of my hounds, head to toe, at least once per week. I've found this especially important with the more reserved hounds. I then get them accustomed to being touched/handled by other household members. I use lots of positive reinforcement and treats.

 

I would not want my hound restrained for shots. A vet who knows what he's doing can vaccinate a shy greyhound without using restraining methods. A fearful dog being restrained is only going to cause more panic and fear response in the dog (as you saw), especially if the restraining individual is a complete and utter stranger.

 

You might also consider doing your own vaccines. Most states you can legally give everything but the rabies vaccine.

[Guest jaws4evr]

Could you do the restraining next time instead of a vet tech? Usually at the vet if Bu needs to be held still I hold his head and talk to him which I think helps keep him calm. That way she isn't feeling threatened by strangers.

 

That's what I was thinking too actually, if I was going to try the same vet again... she has improved with me "practicing" restraining/pinching her, although she already was 10x better with me the first time than at the vets.

 

I assumed that the vet would be more skilled than I would be at handling her, so I let them do what they needed to, although it was pretty distressing to watch. I DO know her better (and the dog knows me better), plus the bloodcurdling skin-melting screaming isn't the best thing to give a vet a confident calming aura ;P

[Tallgreydogmom]

Could you take her on short field trips to the vets? I walk in, tell them we are on a field trip, sit and talk for a few minutes and leave. Then walk in an exam home and sit, then leave. Maybe the vet and staff could pet her and say hi.

[Guest jaws4evr]

How much is she handled by you? By others?

 

I deliberately handle all of my hounds, head to toe, at least once per week. I've found this especially important with the more reserved hounds. I then get them accustomed to being touched/handled by other household members. I use lots of positive reinforcement and treats.

 

I would not want my hound restrained for shots. A vet who knows what he's doing can vaccinate a shy greyhound without using restraining methods. A fearful dog being restrained is only going to cause more panic and fear response in the dog (as you saw), especially if the restraining individual is a complete and utter stranger.

 

You might also consider doing your own vaccines. Most states you can legally give everything but the rabies vaccine.

 

We try to handle her quite a bit. We can do ears, nails, eyes, teeth, grooming all without problems. She's fine with having her tail handled, she's delighted to have her coat put on. Obviously we haven't done it enough, or in the right context though, so I've stepped up the regimin of how/where/how long we touch/hold her. I also plan to bring her to the vet again the next time one of the cats has to go in, and do some "practice" while we're there. I've tried to mix it up handling her in new ways while keeping it fun with games and/or treats, and she seems fine with that experience. However she's also strongly bonded to me so has a much greater tolerance to ME handling her than she does others.

 

I'm not sure that I want to work with other people unfamiliar with her handling, I don't want her to start associating being handled with panic. Plus the average joe doesn't seem to have a very good knowledge of subtle body language when she IS being pushed too far. She does enjoy meeting other people, she's fairly reserved but she does allow strangers to pet/scratch her. She likes children, adults, strollers, seniors, as long as she can get away she SEEMS fine.

 

As for self-vaccination, we're in Canada so I have zero idea if we're allowed to do it here. I'm sure I can talk to the current vet about it though, I have zero training but I feel confident that with a little knowledge, I could vaccinate her without a problem.

 

But yes, the combination of her being shy and uncomfortable, plus being forcibly restrained, was definetely what seemed to cause full panic.

[JJNg]

Sorry to hear about the bad experience at your vet visit. As a vet with an interest in behavior, this topic is one that is near to my heart. I do my best to make every patient's visit to the clinic as low stress as possible, but sometimes they don't respond as ideally as we like.

 

It's hard to comment on whether you should stay with your current vet or find another one who is more behavior/greyhound savvy without having seen the situation, body language, and how things were handled. The entire team, including the vet and all the staff should be familiar with low stress handling of anxious dogs. Some people are just naturally better at this than others.

 

I think it's great that you did fun visits to start, taking her in for pets and treats when you had your other pets there. Did the vet get involved with this process? Is there just one vet at the clinic that you use?

 

You mentioned that "she had already begun to spook during the physical exam". How did the vet respond to this? What was her body language, and what was the vet's body language showing? How a dog is touched and approached can have a huge impact on how they respond and how much they will allow. And the mood and mindset of the person doing the handling will also affect the dog's reaction - ie. someone who is calm and relaxed will tend to elicit a more similar response in the pet.

 

The part I find most concerning is your description of how "the wrestling match continued for a while." Once a dog starts to 'flip out' often the best thing to do is immediately let her go and give her a chance to settle back down before trying again in a calm manner. It's not about 'winning' the confrontation or letting her get away with bad behavior. Most dogs that panic at the vet are truly terrified, and it has nothing to do with dominance or control. Continuing to try to restrain and 'wrestle' with a dog who is already panicking is going to scare them more, and is also a good way to get bitten.

 

Most nervous dogs are more comfortable with their owner holding them than a stranger. Some vet clinics may not allow this due to liability reasons. But I would rather take that risk if I feel that the owner is competent and can stay calm, if it allows for a better experience for the dog. There are exceptions, such as nervous, agitated owners who make their dog worse, and then I'll politely ask if the owner would mind us taking the dog out of the room to do what we need to do. (The last time I had to make this request, the owner sheepishly said her pediatrician always did the same thing with her kids!)

 

On the issue of restraint for things like vaccines, I find that a lot of nervous dogs do better with distraction than restraint. When the vet is getting ready to do the injection, someone else (owner or assistant) can distract the dog by scratching or rubbing hard on another part of the body. Ie. when the vet is giving a shot in the rear, have someone vigorously scratching under their chest. Someone should still have a hand lightly on the neck or collar in case the dog still tries to whip around to bite when they feel the needle.

 

If you like your vet and want to go back there, I'd suggest going in (without your GH) to speak with them about your concerns. See if you can speak with the vet directly about what happened at the visit, and how they would handle things differently the next time she is in. I would take the same approach for her upcoming dental. Where ever you decide to have it down, I would go in ahead of time to discuss your concerns and see how they plan to handle each step of the procedure. See if they might let you stay with her for an initial pre-anesthetic sedation injection, and maybe even stay while they put in the IV catheter.

 

If you're wanting to try another vet, I have a friend who used to live in Calgary that I can ask for a reference. She is a dog trainer, believes strongly in positive reinforcement training, and has a difficult dog herself, so she might know a good vet in your area. You need to be your dog's advocate and work with your vet (whether the current one or another) to make these necessary experiences go as well as possible for her. Insensitive handling can make her behavior worse and worse with time. Best wishes!

[Guest jaws4evr]

I don't know how to email people on this forum yet, so this is one very logn message so I appologize to the forum as a whole

 

Sorry to hear about the bad experience at your vet visit. As a vet with an interest in behavior, this topic is one that is near to my heart. I do my best to make every patient's visit to the clinic as low stress as possible, but sometimes they don't respond as ideally as we like.

 

It's hard to comment on whether you should stay with your current vet or find another one who is more behavior/greyhound savvy without having seen the situation, body language, and how things were handled. The entire team, including the vet and all the staff should be familiar with low stress handling of anxious dogs. Some people are just naturally better at this than others.

 

 

I definetely agree that regardless of good intentions, some people are just more gifted with difficult dogs than others. I historically quite like my vet, she's a wizard with cats, but I've never had a "difficult" dog before (our Pitty mix is a tank and completely unphasable).

 

 

I think it's great that you did fun visits to start, taking her in for pets and treats when you had your other pets there. Did the vet get involved with this process? Is there just one vet at the clinic that you use?

 

 

Yes the vet was directly involved in our test visits, and that's the only clinic I've ever taken our pets to. I was there on three occasions to take the two cats, and our Pitty for their checkups, and brought the GH each time. So since the vet was doign the checkups, she was able to interact directly with the GH as well. Each time they weighed her and fussed over her, gave her treats, etc. She's very sweet and beautiful so both the vet and the assistant were happy to give her happy times attention. She visibly enjoyed the visits. Granted she didn't recieve exam style "handling" during these visits, which i'll adress below.

 

 

You mentioned that "she had already begun to spook during the physical exam". How did the vet respond to this? What was her body language, and what was the vet's body language showing? How a dog is touched and approached can have a huge impact on how they respond and how much they will allow. And the mood and mindset of the person doing the handling will also affect the dog's reaction - ie. someone who is calm and relaxed will tend to elicit a more similar response in the pet.

 

 

I need to move to where you are, are you taking new clients? (kidding)

 

Seriously though, basically what happened is the vet and I were talking about how the dog was doing, what her diet was like, how her stools were, any other things I'd noticed or wanted to discuss. She then got down on the floor and called the dog to her, with relaxed body language. The dog came to her happily but shyly as is her way. The vet started feeling her body, looking in her eyes/ears/etc... to me the vet seemed to get more "serious", and the dog became more tense. Her eyes got more wide, she became very still, visibly tense, ears folded right back, tucked her tail, etc. When she started to "spook", was when the vet was feeling her lower abdomen (excuse my total naivety at what vets are feeling for), the vet appeared to me to become a bit nervous/tense, and at the very end the dog flinched and jumped away. The vet then let her go, and mixed up the vaccines and we continued chatting.

 

 

The part I find most concerning is your description of how "the wrestling match continued for a while." Once a dog starts to 'flip out' often the best thing to do is immediately let her go and give her a chance to settle back down before trying again in a calm manner. It's not about 'winning' the confrontation or letting her get away with bad behavior. Most dogs that panic at the vet are truly terrified, and it has nothing to do with dominance or control. Continuing to try to restrain and 'wrestle' with a dog who is already panicking is going to scare them more, and is also a good way to get bitten.

 

 

Not to make this a novel but after the dogs initial panic they immediately let her go. They had started with the assistant at her head, letting her mouth over a treat, and the vet behind ready to give her the vaccine. The dog seemed to me to immediately feel that "something funny" was going on behind her, immediately lost 100% interest in both the assistant, and the treat, and she tried to excape, at which point she succeeded since she wasn't beng held.

 

After experiencing the thrasing screaming episode (which i have seen with the dog before and they are emotional to see), they then asked if they could muzzle her, since up until that poitn she was not muzzled. I agreed to this, since it would keep everyoen safer, and hopefully would give the already somewhat shaken vet more confidence that hopefully she could transfer to the dog. They tried several different means of approaching her, holding her head, holding her hindquarters. Each attempt was met with screamng and thrashing... sigh.

 

I absolutely agree that it's not about dominance, winning, or bad behavior... terrified is exactly what the dog was, I think I did a great job of keepign my cool but it as difficult to watch, and happened fast.

 

 

Most nervous dogs are more comfortable with their owner holding them than a stranger. Some vet clinics may not allow this due to liability reasons. But I would rather take that risk if I feel that the owner is competent and can stay calm, if it allows for a better experience for the dog. There are exceptions, such as nervous, agitated owners who make their dog worse, and then I'll politely ask if the owner would mind us taking the dog out of the room to do what we need to do. (The last time I had to make this request, the owner sheepishly said her pediatrician always did the same thing with her kids!)

 

 

I'm pretty sure my vet would allow me to participate as much as I was willing to, short of examining her msyelf which I'm obviously not qualified to do. I went in there with the mentality that the vets are the experts, and if anyone shoudl be able to work with a spooky dog, it would be them, afterall who am I to know?

 

In hindsight I think I know a lot and should be able to help a great deal... firstly I'm not scared of her, and she trusts me, so I think if I focus on those things I should be able to transfer that to the dog. At least I hope so!

 

Of additional interest, I actually had brought the Pitty of ours with us to her appointment, since she adores him and he's such a stoic boy, I was hoping some of his calmness would give her some confidence. Obviously he was zero help.

 

 

On the issue of restraint for things like vaccines, I find that a lot of nervous dogs do better with distraction than restraint. When the vet is getting ready to do the injection, someone else (owner or assistant) can distract the dog by scratching or rubbing hard on another part of the body. Ie. when the vet is giving a shot in the rear, have someone vigorously scratching under their chest. Someone should still have a hand lightly on the neck or collar in case the dog still tries to whip around to bite when they feel the needle.

 

 

They actually were using the treat-bait from the front technique. The dog saw right through it, I'm not really sure what the exact trigger was... she's a very sensitive thing. She does like her ears rubbed very very hard, so I could try that next time..? A squeaky toy?

 

To her credit didn't at all tried to bite (not saying she couldn't so we will be muzzling her at all times at the vet from now on), but her #1 priority was obviously to get away.

 

 

If you like your vet and want to go back there, I'd suggest going in (without your GH) to speak with them about your concerns. See if you can speak with the vet directly about what happened at the visit, and how they would handle things differently the next time she is in. I would take the same approach for her upcoming dental. Where ever you decide to have it down, I would go in ahead of time to discuss your concerns and see how they plan to handle each step of the procedure. See if they might let you stay with her for an initial pre-anesthetic sedation injection, and maybe even stay while they put in the IV catheter.

 

 

Good suggestions. Medical question, is it possible to "gas" a dog out first, before giving her any injections at all? The dog is enormously strong, I can't imagine getting her to lay down somehow (which she will not do at the vets) would make it possible for her to keep her leg still. I'll talk to whichever vet I go to about this as well.

 

 

If you're wanting to try another vet, I have a friend who used to live in Calgary that I can ask for a reference. She is a dog trainer, believes strongly in positive reinforcement training, and has a difficult dog herself, so she might know a good vet in your area. You need to be your dog's advocate and work with your vet (whether the current one or another) to make these necessary experiences go as well as possible for her. Insensitive handling can make her behavior worse and worse with time. Best wishes!

 

Actually I would like a recommendation if you have one. I do like my vet, she's saved my cats life, and has always been spot on with her diagnoses. She may be more of a "cat" vet than a dog vet, not saying she's not passionate about both, but her skills may not be as strong in the canine behavior realm.

 

Great reply, much appreciated, and sorry for the novel!

[Guest sweetpea]

Hiya!

 

The "restraint" involved the vet holding under her tuck-up, and the assistant holding her collar.

 

This is an exaggerated version of what I'm picturing.

 

 

 

My Sweetpea is very calm and mellow, virtually unflappable.

 

However, she does not like ANYONE fiddling around with her tuck. If I'm imagining what you're describing correctly,

my girl would have wigged out as well. It's just skin and organs down there, and not a lot of padding.

 

It is possible that on top of being spooked, being held like that hurt her, which would explain the violence of her reaction.

 

 

I do like the idea of bringing your other dog along, just to see if that helps calm her.

 

Good luck!

 

Buzzy

[Hubcitypam]

You might also consider doing your own vaccines. Most states you can legally give everything but the rabies vaccine.

If you decide to go that route be aware that almost all boarding kennels and many groomers, vets and clinics do not honor self vaccinations, even with the labels provided.

 

When I had a shy girl my then vet had me hold her collar and tap firmly on her head with my kuckles while he did what he needed to do. He said they concentrate on the tapping and forget the back half -- by golly, at least for her, it worked like a charm. Good luck.

[JJNg]

From your additional details, it sounds like your vet clinic and staff are pretty 'advanced' in terms of using positive reinforcement and working with the dogs, which is great! Some dogs just don't respond well to the usual stuff that works for most dogs, and I find these to be a challenge in figuring out what works for them. In the rare case, the dog's temperament just doesn't allow for a low stress experience, and then we just try to figure out a way to get everything done as quickly as possible, sometimes even using sedation.

 

The vet started feeling her body, looking in her eyes/ears/etc... to me the vet seemed to get more "serious", and the dog became more tense. Her eyes got more wide, she became very still, visibly tense, ears folded right back, tucked her tail, etc. When she started to "spook", was when the vet was feeling her lower abdomen (excuse my total naivety at what vets are feeling for), the vet appeared to me to become a bit nervous/tense, and at the very end the dog flinched and jumped away.

Great observations of your dog's behavior! Were you touching or holding her at all during this exam? If not, that may help. Some shy dogs will hide their head in their owner's lap or arms while I'm doing the majority of the exam, and that seems to give them a sense of security. While not ideal, I may skip certain parts of the exam that make the dog too stressed. I'd rather the dog go away with a fairly good experience so that they'll hopefully be a little more comfortable and let me do more the next time I see them. If you force the issue, they'll get worse, the next exam will be even harder.

 

When working with a nervous dog, I tend to start with just casually petting and rubbing them, then slowly incorporating my exam into the motions. Obviously certain parts of the exam are very different from any handling most dogs are used to (such as palpating the abdomen). Also, if you could see that the vet became nervous and tense, I'm sure your dog (sorry if I've missed her name somewhere) could sense it too.

 

Not to make this a novel but after the dogs initial panic they immediately let her go. They had started with the assistant at her head, letting her mouth over a treat, and the vet behind ready to give her the vaccine. The dog seemed to me to immediately feel that "something funny" was going on behind her, immediately lost 100% interest in both the assistant, and the treat, and she tried to excape, at which point she succeeded since she wasn't beng held.

Ok, I'm a little confused...was the initial screaming/thrashing episode associated with restraint or not? It sounds like they were just trying to distract her with the treat, and weren't holding her at all? Do you remember what exactly the vet was doing when she panicked? Was it when she felt the needle, or did she get upset even before it got to that point?

 

I find that treats works best for easily distracted puppies or very food motivated dogs that are just hyper and won't hold still. However, for the very anxious and nervous dogs, most of them are too scared to take treats, or the treats don't hold their attention through scary experiences, like you discovered. So we usually just distract with the scratching/rubbing (tapping works too), and get the shots done as quickly as possible.

 

To her credit didn't at all tried to bite (not saying she couldn't so we will be muzzling her at all times at the vet from now on), but her #1 priority was obviously to get away.

Is your GH a retired racer who is accustomed to wearing a kennel muzzle? If so, I'd suggest using her kennel muzzle rather than a muzzle from the vet.

 

Good suggestions. Medical question, is it possible to "gas" a dog out first, before giving her any injections at all? The dog is enormously strong, I can't imagine getting her to lay down somehow (which she will not do at the vets) would make it possible for her to keep her leg still. I'll talk to whichever vet I go to about this as well.

Trying to use anesthesia gas to "mask down" a dog is much more stressful than a quick injection to lightly (or more heavily) sedate her first. It can take 5-10 min or more of holding the mask to their face, and in addition to fighting the mask and the smell of the gas, even animals that are not nervous typically go through a period of struggling before they are knocked out.

 

Pre-anesthetic sedatives often include drugs that are also anti-anxiety meds, so most dogs relax after the injection and it becomes fairly easy to get them to lay down and place the IV catheter.

 

Actually I would like a recommendation if you have one.

I sent my friend an email and will let you know when I hear back from her.

[Hawthorn]

I just wanted to convey my sympathy because I have one who is very similar at the vets. Sophie is terrified from the moment we arrive in the waiting room (actually her anxiety starts in the car park) until the moment we leave. She shakes violently and pants and is constantly looking for an escape route. She hasn't ever screamed or reared up during an examination but does try to get away. Over the years we've tried every remedy anyone has ever suggested (rescue remedy, DAP etc) but nothing has helped. I think she is just one of those dogs, as jjng says, whose temperament doesn't allow for a low-stress experience.

 

We've changed vets twice (for other reasons) since we've owned Sophie but this hasn't made any difference at all to her fear. She is somewhat better with vets/nurses who are quiet and gentle and move slowly, but not a great deal. I try to do as much of the handling/restraint as possible myself during the exam, and scratching/rubbing and talking to her to distract her definitely helps. The best experiences I've had are the ones where the vet listens to me and asks my opinion on how to handle her rather than just going ahead and doing it their way. For example, we were just at the vet yesterday for a blood draw (a potential nightmare!) and the vet I saw (who I haven't seen before) was very good with both of us. She totally respected the fact that Sophie was terrified and continually asked my opinion: did I think it was best to use the leg or the neck (definitely leg), is it best not to clip her (yes), does she need a muzzle (no) etc etc. Sophie was still terrified, but there was no struggling and it could have been a lot worse. I totally share your fear about IVs being inserted etc and absolutely dread Sophie needing an anaesthetic in the future. If she does, I think I will do as jjng suggests, and ask if I can perhaps be there while she has a sedative/IV insertion, although I have to say I would feel pretty uncomfortable about making such a request.

 

One thing I've been wondering about recently is if there is any reason not to give, say, 10mg valium to a nervous dog prior to a routine vet visit? It's not something I've ever done, although I always have valium in the house, and haven't got around to asking my own vet yet. I expect there are some instances where it might not be a good idea (?), but for routine visits would there be any harm?

 

jjng - just wanted to say that I found your posts very helpful and informative .

[cleptogrey]

i have gone thru the same thing w/ felix at my vet's office.he was fine and then just spooked one day. i have used the same vet for 30+years and discussed felix's anxiety with him and asked him personally if he though i should use someone else for felix.to fix things my vet came out to the parking lot(the weather was good), we sat down and chatted and ignored him totally.then he let felix approach and then proceeded w/ scraping- numerous checking for mange. then in the office i started having his muzzle oh , i always handeled him and fed him tasty morsels of treats during the exam. we also started having the office manager come in and well all chatted, keeping the focus off of felix. he has undergone emergency cleanup and staples as well as staple removal, shots and lots of bandage changes as my handiwork fixing up cuts and rips was examined. i have had my shoes pissed on, but what ever. he has finally calmed down. i bring the muzzle every time, but often it's on the exam table and i just hold his head.

 

treats are a must and a good long pee after we leave.

[heartdogs]

I had a very nervous, shy Rat Terrier That would freak at the vets, I went to a new vet & talked to them about Ty before his first appointmet & when we went in of course Ty knew where we were but the vet came in the exam room & I had put Ty on the table, Dr Reese turned off the over head lights, sat next to Ty & gently stroked his neck until Ty settled. When the exam was done & Dr Reese looked in his mouth he found 3 abcessed teeth & said it was no wonder Ty didn't feel safe. After that time when ever I took Ty there, even if it wasn't a visit for him, Dr Reese & the techs would come & talk quietly with him. I've never had a vet give regular shots in the rear, would figure that would hurt more than in the neck, shoulder area.

[Guest jaws4evr]

 

When I had a shy girl my then vet had me hold her collar and tap firmly on her head with my kuckles while he did what he needed to do. He said they concentrate on the tapping and forget the back half -- by golly, at least for her, it worked like a charm. Good luck.

 

that's hillarious, and worth a shot!

[Hubcitypam]

I've never had a vet give regular shots in the rear, would figure that would hurt more than in the neck, shoulder area.

One of the vets where I go told me to give Poodles shots in his rear and we have not had any screams or peeps since I started following his advice. At least in Poodle's case there is a lot of loose skin around his haunches. He screamed bloody murder on the nape of his neck, less on his shoulder and not at all on his rear. I am almost sure the shot clinic gives them in the rear.

[Batmom]

Sounds to me like vet and vet tech don't know how to restrain a nervous dog. Easiest way, which requires a larger/stronger vet tech, is sit down in a chair and pick up dog -- all 4 feet off the ground.

 

My angel Zema was another one who didn't like being grabbed/poked around the tuck or ribs. Bend over her to do that and you'd have some screaming for sure. She was always fine for shots, cystocentesis, etc. I'd just hold her head against my leg and rub her ears, and vet would work fast. When we had to do her corns, vet and I would corral her between us and the wall so she couldn't jerk away. (Yes, we were a little mean, but Zema's veterinary terror was irremediable and best managed by simply moving fast and getting the job done as quickly as possible. Trying to butter her up usually made matters worse in her case.)

[Guest jaws4evr]

Great observations of your dog's behavior! Were you touching or holding her at all during this exam? If not, that may help. Some shy dogs will hide their head in their owner's lap or arms while I'm doing the majority of the exam, and that seems to give them a sense of security. While not ideal, I may skip certain parts of the exam that make the dog too stressed. I'd rather the dog go away with a fairly good experience so that they'll hopefully be a little more comfortable and let me do more the next time I see them. If you force the issue, they'll get worse, the next exam will be even harder.

 

I was not touching or holding Nina at all during the exam. However I am very open to doing so if it would be helpful. I do try to watch closely, dogs teach me to be a better dog handler!

 

 

Ok, I'm a little confused...was the initial screaming/thrashing episode associated with restraint or not? It sounds like they were just trying to distract her with the treat, and weren't holding her at all? Do you remember what exactly the vet was doing when she panicked? Was it when she felt the needle, or did she get upset even before it got to that point?

 

 

Forgive me but it happened pretty quickly and was a long appointment *sigh*. From what I recall, the assistant was doing the treat/bait in front, holding the dogs leash/collar. The vet was using little if any restraint, she was down on the ground right up close to Nina's backside though. She might have had an arm around Nina's tuck but at this point I can't be sure. I'm don't think the vet got the needle in, if she did it was for a brief instant, Nina has very "taught" (lucky girl ) skin on her hindquarters so it could have been the pinching of the skin that triggered her? Whatever it was she responded with great violence, with rearing, flailing and horrible screaming. The vet immediately called to "let her go!", while they regrouped. She was absolutely uncomfortable well before the injection was even attempted, however it was then that she turned to a full panic.

 

They tried again at various angles, and various levels of restraint, but Nina was on high alert at this point and wanted absolutely no part of them touching her. Eventually Nina'd cowered down in a lay-down type crouch, at which position she didn't have her explosive power capabilities, so the vet/assistant team were able to keep her down on that position while she got the injection, but there was no break in the panic screams. As you can imagine I'm pretty sure she didn't even notice the needle, she was so amped up in panic it just wouldn't have mattered. They immediately released and de-muzzled her once they got the vaccine in, and Nina did take treats from both of them within a couple of minutes, so she did recover.

 

Nina has much more loose skin on her shoulders, it might be worth a try for an easier injection site?

 

 

I find that treats works best for easily distracted puppies or very food motivated dogs that are just hyper and won't hold still. However, for the very anxious and nervous dogs, most of them are too scared to take treats, or the treats don't hold their attention through scary experiences, like you discovered. So we usually just distract with the scratching/rubbing (tapping works too), and get the shots done as quickly as possible.

Vigorous scratching/tapping/rubbing sounds like the way to go... I don't think Nina would buy "calming" type petting, although we will try that too.

 

 

Is your GH a retired racer who is accustomed to wearing a kennel muzzle? If so, I'd suggest using her kennel muzzle rather than a muzzle from the vet.

She is a retired racer and has a kennel muzzle, she doesn't enjoy wearing it but does tolerate it. The kennel from the vet was NOT a kennel muzzle, although it did fit her quite well for what it was. I'm certain having her mouth shut made her panic worse

 

 

Trying to use anesthesia gas to "mask down" a dog is much more stressful than a quick injection to lightly (or more heavily) sedate her first. It can take 5-10 min or more of holding the mask to their face, and in addition to fighting the mask and the smell of the gas, even animals that are not nervous typically go through a period of struggling before they are knocked out.

 

Pre-anesthetic sedatives often include drugs that are also anti-anxiety meds, so most dogs relax after the injection and it becomes fairly easy to get them to lay down and place the IV catheter.

 

That's good to know.

 

 

I sent my friend an email and will let you know when I hear back from her.

 

Perfect! Thanks so much for your insight.

Edited February 2, 2011 by jaws4evr

[racindog]

Rescue Remedy would probably help.

[JJNg]

I'm don't think the vet got the needle in, if she did it was for a brief instant, Nina has very "taught" (lucky girl ) skin on her hindquarters so it could have been the pinching of the skin that triggered her? Whatever it was she responded with great violence, with rearing, flailing and horrible screaming.

Most dogs have a specific trigger prior to such a violent reaction, and it helps if we know what set it off so we can approach it differently next time. However, in some dogs, there may be no obvious trigger, and it may be that she finally had enough and the build-up of stress from the whole experience just got to be too much.

 

They immediately released and de-muzzled her once they got the vaccine in, and Nina did take treats from both of them within a couple of minutes, so she did recover.

This is a good sign.

 

Nina has much more loose skin on her shoulders, it might be worth a try for an easier injection site?

A lot of vets have specific places they like to do each shot so that if there's a local reaction, we'll know which vaccine caused it. It wouldn't hurt to discuss this with your vet, but changing location may not make a difference. I do like to use smaller needles (25 gauge works fine for vaccines), and switching to a fresh needle after the shot is drawn up also helps (sharper needle that hasn't gone through the bottle stopper hurts less).

 

Vigorous scratching/tapping/rubbing sounds like the way to go... I don't think Nina would buy "calming" type petting, although we will try that too.

Calming type petting may help during the physical exam. But for anything painful (shots, drawing blood) you really need the vigorous scratching/tapping/rubbing to take her mind off the sting of the needle.

 

I heard back from my friend in Calgary, and she gave me a couple names. Not sure how far these vets are from you.

 

Dr. Miranda Bourque is located in a small town (Okotoks) SW of Calgary. She has a special interest in behavior and is also a dog trainer who used positive reinforcement and clicker training. I went to her website and saw that she has a whippet. Here's the site:

http://www.foothillsanimalhospital.ca/

 

She also recommended Dr. Wanda Vockeroth as a vet who has excellent 'bedside manner' with nervous dogs and uses calming signals. However, she mostly does alternative therapy, and my friend wasn't sure if she still does any conventional medicine (there are other vets at the practice, but my friend specifically recommended Dr. Vockeroth). She is right in the city of Calgary, but may be difficult to get an appointment because she is so busy with her alternative med patients. Here's the practice's website:

http://www.mardaloopvet.com/

 

Best of luck, and I hope her next vet visit goes much smoother. I'd definitely recommend continuing to take her in for fun visits, regardless of which vet you decide to go with.

[JJNg]

I just wanted to convey my sympathy because I have one who is very similar at the vets. Sophie is terrified from the moment we arrive in the waiting room (actually her anxiety starts in the car park) until the moment we leave. .... Over the years we've tried every remedy anyone has ever suggested (rescue remedy, DAP etc) but nothing has helped.

Have you tried any desensitization work? Taking her to the clinic for 'fun visits' to very gradually get her used to the experience? Here's an article which details the type of training I'm referring to:

http://www.k9aggression.com/articles/ATM_Desensitization.pdf

 

If you've figured out a routine that works for you and Sophie, this may not be necessary, but it may also be possible to help her out more and make vet visits less stressful.

 

I totally share your fear about IVs being inserted etc and absolutely dread Sophie needing an anaesthetic in the future. If she does, I think I will do as jjng suggests, and ask if I can perhaps be there while she has a sedative/IV insertion, although I have to say I would feel pretty uncomfortable about making such a request.

I've found that a lot of people seem to be uncomfortable, and almost feel guilty, about approaching medical professionals with questions or special requests. I don't think that people should feel this way, and I encourage my clients to talk to me and share their concerns. The more open the communication is, the better I can meet both their and their dogs' needs. If your vet isn't willing to listen or to discuss things with you, I think you need to find another vet (general comment - not directed toward you or anyone else in this discussion). That's not to say that your vet should do whatever you ask, but if they can't/won't comply with your request, they should still be willing to give you a good explanation of why it's not a good idea.

 

A friend suggested a book that might be a good resource for this type of communication. I haven't had a chance to read much of it, so can't comment personally, but it's gotten good reviews. The book is _Speaking for Spot: Be the Advocate Your Dog Needs to Live a Happy, Healthy, Longer Life_ and is written by a vet, Dr. Nancy Kay. Here's a site with more info:

http://www.speakingforspot.com/

 

One thing I've been wondering about recently is if there is any reason not to give, say, 10mg valium to a nervous dog prior to a routine vet visit?

I certainly feel there are cases that benefit from anti-anxiety medication like Valium or Xanax for vet visits. Of course, you should discuss this with your vet, and ask your vet about appropriate dosing for your dog. I used the generic Xanax for my own fear aggressive IG when I had to take him in to the clinic for anything. He's the dog who started my interest in behavior and taught me a lot in the almost 13 years I had him.

 

There are some who are concerned that anti-anxiety medications like this will 'disinhibit' a dog's self control and make the dog more likely to become aggressive. The theory is that some level of fear keeps the dog from lashing out. However, I haven't encountered this problem, and personally, I feel that if a dog is less scared, it will probably be less likely to be aggressive.

 

Forgot to mention that for people who don't want to jump right to using medication, other products like Rescue Remedy, like racindog suggested, may help. There are a number of other calming supplements available too, like Anxitane, Harmonease, and NutriCalm, just to mention a few. I don't have a lot of personal experience with these, but from feedback I've gotten from others, they work better for some dogs than others, and it may take some trial and error to find one that helps your dog.

Edited February 4, 2011 by jjng

[Guest d0ggiem0mma]

Proper and low-stress handling, including restraint, are important. I don't know many vets that would be willing to give injections of any kind to a dog without some light restraint. Even very docile dogs often bite when pricked with a needle!

 

I'm with jjng- see if you can find a vet willing to work with you on "happy visits." The vet hospital I work at started offering this service last year and we have had a TON of success with it. Basically the dogs come in for low stress appointments to make them more comfortable with the vet. They start out really easy- you bring your dog in, they put you in an exam room, the vet (or a tech) comes in and gives your dog lots of pets and treats, then you leave. The next visit they might look at your dog's teeth, lots of treats etc, then you leave. Each visit they get a little more invasive while paying close attention to body language to make sure they don't overwhelm the dog.

[Guest OMGiluvgreys]

 

When I had a shy girl my then vet had me hold her collar and tap firmly on her head with my kuckles while he did what he needed to do. He said they concentrate on the tapping and forget the back half --

 

We do this to cut Misty's nails