What Do You Think Of What This Trainer Told Me?

[cleptogrey]

check out the book control unleashed/leslie mc devitt. there might just be a couple of good ideas that will click. i don't think that there is a solution in the book, but it does talk about dogs who need their own space at times.

 

be consitant and positive. for every good behavior- a sweet voice and a treat- but develop a new sweet voice. it also sounds like your fun and happy play which she responds to by getting out of control needs to be toned down a tad. - just for a while- until you get what you should be getting- a cooperative pup who pays attention.

 

when i am dealing w/ a sitation that i am trying to change, i focus on another skill and reward big time....it sounds like your pockets will be filled w/ dehydrated liver- it washes and dries very well!

[GreyPoopon]

GreyPoopon -- "settle" is a good idea; what's the command separate than one for sitting or downing? Beth will do either of those readily, but she's clearly waiting for me to move again and is still ramped up -- at least as long as I've been willing to wait before wanting to continue the walk if we're on leash.

 

With the puppies, people just say Settle (brief pause) Sit. You could use Settle (brief pause) Down if it works better. Then have her maintain the position until she relaxes. If moving sets her off, just repeat the Settle sequence.

 

But the idea is to practice it a lot so she understands before she goes ape. Then you have a lever--a sequence that she recognizes and can follow--when the time comes.

 

Just by-the-by, if you do it enough, eventually Settle will bring about the next action (Sit or Down) without saying the word. Just standing upright works with some (most?) dogs who do it often enough. If I play with Minnie, for example, by getting down low and being silly, all I have to do is stand up and she'll calm down and sit waiting for her treat.

[EllenEveBaz]

One interesting idea someone told me was to have commands that differentiate between "no" and "enough." The first is forbidden behavior, the other okay but it's time to stop.

Edited September 27, 2010 by EllenEveBaz

[Guest JudiK]

I have two mouthy greyhounds and three who wouldn't think of gnawing on Mom. I paid Lee Livingood to come to the house and help with Devon - she believes in stopping everything that you are doing and ignoring the mouthy dog until they stop. It works - but you have to be consistent and sometimes I just don't have time. What I wanted to share is that when I got my first mouthy dog, Pear - we decided that he just needed a young greyhound to play with (my pack at the time was 10 and above.) So we adopted Devon - Pear didn't need to chew on me anymore after that, because Devon was gnawing at me far more often and much harder than Pear ever did!! So the moral is - don't adopt another grey to cure your first mouthy gray.

[racindog]

I think what the trainer said is ridiculous.

 

Play-biting is something that comes natural to dogs. It's part of how they elicit play from and engage in play with other dogs. IMO, she does it because she sees you as part of her pack.

 

She's just trying to get you to play. I don't think it runs much deeper than that.

 

Now, how to handle it. Well, one school of thought is to never allow her to do it and extinguish the behavior by giving a correction every time she does it (or ignore the behavior, though in this case I prefer a correction to ignoring because it's (the correction) very clear to the dog). I think this is the best way to go if the dog is around kids and especially if the dog has a tendency to do this behavior with anyone but you (some will only do it with "their" person). The other way to handle it is to approach it as any other dog would. If you want to play with her AND play with her in this manner, then engage her when you want to. If you don't want to play with her OR she gets too rough, then you correct her. The correction has to be EXTREMELY crystal clear and consistent and no nonsense. Dogs can learn to have a soft mouth and they can learn how much is too much (I don't think everything has to be "all or nothing" in a dog's world).

 

Ditto on the utterly ridulous. Slim and I would play fight violently because WE ENJOYED it and he easily learned to stop immediately upon hearing "OUT!". He could sleep or eat anywhere at anytime. Never a problem.

[jenn8]

Sometimes it helps to say your dog's name right before the command, so she knows you are talking to her and not just wanting to hear your ears rattle.

 

I also believe that consistency is very important. If you get her to settle down when you say so, don't let her slide from there on in. While she may understand what you want (or don't want), she can also learn very quickly that it's up to her if she listens or not.

 

Jenn

Edited September 27, 2010 by jenn8

[Guest houndstooth4]

I didn't read through all of the replies really closely, so forgive me if I repeat some of the ideas you've been given.

 

First, I think that trainer is full of bunk! I think given her behavior in all other situations, she's not really ignoring you or disrespecting you. She's just trying to get you to respond to her in an inappropriate way.

 

I wouldn't try to get her amped up by direct physical interaction. I'd get a toy of some kind that she likes and either toss it around for her or play tug, but make it clear that she's not putting her mouth on you. If she does, that's it, game over. Make like a tree with your hands tucked under your armpits, turn your back and refuse to make eye contact until she settles down. I also use a loud voice and say "Uht" like the beginning of "uh uh." When she settles down, then you're friends again, but I would let the game sit for a while. I don't use my knee in their chests, but if they're really rowdy, I will turn and softly bump them away with my hip. (Lots of padding there! lol) I can't really hurt them, and they sort of bounce off me, too.

 

 

[Sighthounds4me]

I have not read all the replies, on purpose, so they don't color my thoughts.

 

I disagree with the trainer, even thought I believe in the alpha theory. The reason is, some dogs just don't need the alpha dog to "lead" them at all times. It sounds as though Beth is one - she knows her place in the pack, is comfortable with it, and does not challenge.

 

And I don't consider the play-biting to be a challenge to the human dominance, as some people (like this trainer) may.

 

Instead, she is PLAYING. Dogs do that from time to time! My thoughts on how to extinguish it: stop the game. She jumps and bites, yelp very high-pitched like a puppy would, and freeze. You may turn your back to Beth, but whatever you do, stop the game. Before long, she'll learn that if she jumps and bites, it gets her the opposite of what she wants. If she wants the game to continue, she'll learn to do so based on your rules. After she calms down, continue the game, but if she jumps and bites again, repeat the above.

 

The best part is, this is not a negative training program. It's actually positive, because you are encouraging the dog to work things out on his/her own, and rewarding the behavior you want.

 

Good luck!

[Sighthounds4me]

Beth is in most ways an utterly perfect greyhound ... confident, easy-going, well-mannered in the house, zero sleep/space aggression, does great in training classes, of which we've done a lot. She's generally well-mannered on leash as well, but her one behavioral issue (on and off leash) is that when she wants to play she'll jump and play-bite me quite assertively, and once she gets going it's quite difficult to turn off the behavior until she's ready to settle down (rattling a penny can knocks it out for a few days or more).

 

Today we were doing an outdoor class with a trainer/behaviorist (positive reinforcement based) I've worked with some, and at one point to give Beth a break I tried to jog with her a bit on the grass, and she started the play-biting. The trainer told me that Beth does this because she doesn't see me as the pack leader. She asked me if Beth eats before or after me (varies) and does she get on the furniture/beds (yup, the beds are the softest place so of course she spends a lot of time on them!). She said that to stop Beth play-biting I have to not let her on the beds -- the height makes her think she's equal to me. I do understand NILIF and the whole theory, but the connection between where she sleeps and how she behaves outdoors, when she is obedient to other commands and non-pushy in every other way, seems sort of tenuous to me ... and frankly I can't imagine how I'd forbid the beds now after two years, or enforce it while I'm asleep (I'd have to block off my guest room virtually all the time). Waking up to Beth snuggled next to me is one of my great pleasures.

 

 

I tend to take some ideas from the different schools of thought - i.e. "dominance" theory, positive training, etc. - because I don't feel that any particular method works perfectly for every dog. My opinion of the matter is that you should be only as firm as you need to be to get the point across. For me there are some rules that are iron-clad (i.e. leash, bed, and food manners) and some that aren't (i.e. play-biting), but in all cases, Tumnus knows to stop when I ask him to. It all depends on what is important to you. You can allow play-biting, but I think it's important to let Beth know how hard she can bite and for her to respect you when you want her to stop. I agree with the other posters that Beth's behavior sounds like play (obviously I can't see it ), but I also think that you should be very clear to her when and at what intensity she is allowed to play. It's not necessarily that she doesn't see you as the pack leader - Tumnus still jumps when he gets excited, but he is still respectful of me when I ask him to tone it down - it's just that you've been inconsistent in allowing her to play bite in some instances and not in others. Personally, I don't think she understands what the rules are when it comes to how hard she can play.

 

As for what the trainer told you about letting the dog go out of the door first or getting on the bed...I think people are too keen on throwing this out without explaining why they're doing it. It's useless advice if you don't understand the reasoning behind it, and it's the trainer's job to make sure you do. For me, I don't let my dog go out the door quickly because if he runs, he isn't paying any attention to me. I ask him to wait only so I can make sure he's paying attention to me, which is important because we live in a high traffic area.

 

It doesn't sound like you really have a problem - only a happy puppy. I'd ask the trainer to explain his/her reasoning behind the "no dogs on furniture, etc." stuff. It's easy to say "don't do it" but very difficult to explain the "why". Good luck!

 

I AGREE 100%!!!!

 

Another thing this post brings up is consistency. Maybe when training a new behavior, consistency among all members of the household is very important. But generally, dogs know what is expected from each family member, and can adjust their behavior accordingly.

 

For example, in my home, DH and I each do things a little differently. But each dog knows who expects what, and what they can get away with. Only if it becomes a problem, do we need to adjust things, and be a little more consistent.

[PrairieProf]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We're going to work on it ... lots of suggestions here. The toy thing is tricky since she's not interested in toys except when she decides she is, which is pretty infrequent -- you can throw a toy, squeak it, try to put it in her mouth, and she's utterly indifferent.

 

On our walk this evening, I tried to keep an eye out for when she was getting a little excited, and to walk more slowly or stop and turn away or ask her for a sit until she seemed calm. There was one point at which she bit my arm but I corrected her (I've decided "cut it out" in a serious but not loud voice will be the designated command, since yelling "No!" has gotten me nowhere) and turned her in a tight circle (with both hands on the leash near her collar as someone above suggested), which seems to help. Had to do it twice, but then she stayed calm for the rest of the way home. I also carried good training treats to reward her when she was calm or to keep her focused with "watch me" exercises. This wasn't a challenging walk (we weren't on grass), but it was a start ... maybe. Some days she's bitier than others. Maybe tomorrow evening we'll try it off leash.

 

I'm the only human who works with her, but consistency for me will be the challenge ... in the past if she doesn't jump at all during a walk I start wondering if she's feeling all right!

 

I'm really glad you all think I don't need to keep her off the bed! I really can't imagine that anymore than I can imagine not letting my cat on the bed. Greyhound princesses should sleep in whatever comfy spot suits them best -- and when I get into bed and want more room for my legs, she does hop right off.

Edited September 28, 2010 by PrairieProf

[FiveRoooooers]

You've gotten some really good advice here. Forgive me if I missed this but to be absolutely sure there isn't something else going on, has Beth's mouth been thoroughly examined? If she has a problem tooth, gum, or growth it could cause some mouthiness. A good check-up is one of the first things I do when a horse is "not right."

 

Ditto on keeping her in bed with you! As long as she leaves when you ask her to, enjoy that snuggle time