Food Allergy/ibd

[Guest greytsmom]

I have a grey who will be 10 in June. He has always had what I would call abnormal stools...ranging from soft formed to pudding texture. 10 weeks ago he developed diarrhea. Vet says it was from food allergy. He has been on three rounds of flagyl, amoxicillen, and continues prednisone. We have been trying to wean him off to no avail. He gets to day 3-4 off of pred and 2 weeks off of antibiotics and he relapses. I was so excited yesterday to see a normal stool and thought we had finally made a breakthrough. Today however, it is back to semi soft loosely formed. This was his third day off pred and 2 weeks since last round of antibiotics. My vet says he may need to be on pred and antibiotics indefinitely. We have been feeding him Z/D diet. I just can't believe this is as good as it is going to be.

 

I still work full time and on his pred day he drinks more and pees like a race horse. He is confined to kitchen, but he pees so much it is difficult to contain and I am getting so discouraged. Has anyone had similar experience? Does it ever get better? Is my vet on the right track. What about azulfidine for maintenance? Budesonide instead of prednisone? I am in need of some advice and encouragement. Thank you for any help.

[Guest mcsheltie]

If it weren't for the peeing episodes that low dose of Pred is no problem long term. I would try Budesonide. Most IBD dogs end up there anyway.

 

What antibiotic is he on? Metronidazole & Tylan are routinely given long term. No problems.

 

I have only had to deal with 2 IBD dogs & cats. A raw diet fixed them right up. In fact it was the reason I started researching raw. Nothing else the vet did was having any effect. But unfortunately that isn't the case for all.

[Sambuca]

My boy has a sensitive belly and some of the prescription foods still gave him diarrhea. Maybe try some different foods. Also, it may be worth getting a dog walker or even a neighbor come while you are at work until you get things under control. It may be a bit a costly, but at least you won't be cleaning pools of pee every day.

[CaliforniaGreys]

I have no experience at all with IBD, but the excessive drinking and peeing does subside after awhile on Pred

[greyhead]

Our IBD dog has been on Budesonide, metronidazole and tylosin for about 9 months and doing very well. He also gets one raw meal a day. He can only have venison; we use Natural Balance Venison and Sweet Potato kibble, and Evo 95% Venison canned. Three meals a day total.

 

Internist vet says expect to be on Budesonide for a year. Regular vet says metronidazole probably for life, though the dosage is now half what we started with. He has done fine with the meds! The only down side to Budesonide is loss of fur. I'm hoping the year gets over without him becoming bald.

 

He developed an inflammatory response to chicken, beef, and buffalo before we figured out that he had IBD, after a lengthy round of SIBO. Never tried Z/D because it has too many ingredients and, if I'm not mistaken, is chicken-based. So you might find a novel protein with minimal other ingredients and try that. I'm told that eventually IBD dogs may be able to again eat some of their old foods, but so far ours can't. That's okay. He's alive!

 

Best of luck! Let us know how it goes, okay?

 

Edited to add: Another GTer PM'd me to say that every time she tries to take her dog off Flagyl, he reverts to pudding poops or worse. But as long as he stays on it, he's okay.

Edited March 3, 2010 by greyhead

[Guest greytsmom]

Our IBD dog has been on Budesonide, metronidazole and tylosin for about 9 months and doing very well. He also gets one raw meal a day. He can only have venison; we use Natural Balance Venison and Sweet Potato kibble, and Evo 95% Venison canned. Three meals a day total.

 

Internist vet says expect to be on Budesonide for a year. Regular vet says metronidazole probably for life, though the dosage is now half what we started with. He has done fine with the meds! The only down side to Budesonide is loss of fur. I'm hoping the year gets over without him becoming bald.

 

He developed an inflammatory response to chicken, beef, and buffalo before we figured out that he had IBD, after a length round of SIBO. Never tried Z/D because it has too many ingredients and, if I'm not mistaken, is chicken-based. So you might find a novel protein with minimal other ingredients and try that. I'm told that eventually IBD dogs may be able to again eat some of their old foods, but so far ours can't. That's okay. He's alive!

 

Best of luck! Let us know how it goes, okay?

 

Edited to add: Another GTer PM'd me to say that every time she tries to take her dog of Flagyl, he reverts to pudding poops or worse. But as long as he stays on it, he's okay.

It is good to reply before posting

 

I'm ok with the flagyl. It is the pred that is driving me nuts. And after 10 weeks, we still have pudding poops if he goes 4 days off pred! My vet has not suggested anything different to try and I am reluctant to try any new food without her blessing. I have wondered if there isn't anything in the Z/D that he is sensitive to? He was on a chicken protein before he started this problem. I am told this is a hydrolyzed chicken protein (Z/D) which makes it more easily digestible, but to me he isn't responding to this food well if he still needs the pred to have a firm stool. Does that make sense?? She is suppose to call me back today. I just had a long conversation with her Friday and here I am again with more questions than answers. I do not wish to become a nuisance to her, but he doesn't seem to be responding like I think he should.

Edited March 2, 2010 by greytsmom

[Guest greytsmom]

I have no experience at all with IBD, but the excessive drinking and peeing does subside after awhile on Pred

How long on pred before the excessive drinking and peeing subside? He has been on it for 10 weeks.

[RobinM]

SHORT VERSION:

My Beau was diagnosed with IBD via open exploratory surgery 1/09 after thousands of dollars of every test out there- repeated- x-rays of abdomen, worming, flagyl, tylon power, probiotics this food, that food - we tried every single food out there.

He poops were gross and he stopped eating. He was down to 52.4 pounds and I was so afraid of losing him.

The only thing that got his IBD under control was: 50 mg of pred and 50 mg of imuran to start. We had to let him out EVERY 3 hours and feed him EVERY 3 hours ( he was so hungry and he needed to gain) We had someone come into the house to let him out and feed him while we were at work. When he started to gain, we lowered the pred.

He ate ONLY Z/D as it is a hypoallergenic food. It comes in wet and dry. He did well on it.

We got the pred down to 7.5 mg but every time we get down to under 10mg, he stasts to not eat and feel crappy again.

So... we just changed him to 3mg of budesonide. He seems to be doing OK on that. But, I feel you need to get your pup under control before the switch to budesonide.

 

Hope this helps. Any questions, please feel free to email me at rlm410@optonline.net

Edited March 2, 2010 by RobinM

[JAJ2010]

*cough* go raw *cough* this sounds exactly like what we went through with Rainy! Only the science diet stuff caused explosive D. That was so much fun. Day 1 of raw diet she was 90% better.

[CaliforniaGreys]

I have no experience at all with IBD, but the excessive drinking and peeing does subside after awhile on Pred

How long on pred before the excessive drinking and peeing subside? He has been on it for 10 weeks.

 

It differs, and honestly, I've seen it in 2 months, I've seen it less, and there may be people who have seen it take longer

[Guest jskelton]

What do the blood tests show? Low albumin? What about folate and cobalamin? Pancreas okay? I would think these will help guide you to possible causes. Or at least eliminate some.

 

My IBD dog started out with Metronidazole (antibiotic), Prednisone, and Azathioprine (immunosupressor). We are down to the latter two every 3 days. Eventually, she'll only get the Azathioprine, probably for life.

[4My2Greys]

I'm not going to comment re the food, but thought I would make a helpful suggestion as far as his peeing and cleanup. When Nadir was having incontinence issues, he too would pee a lot. I started putting down the flat waterproof mattress pads on the floor in the spots he tended to pee. It was so much easier to hose them off outside and then throw them into the washing machine then to have to clean and mop my floor with every accident.

[Guest greytsmom]

I'm not going to comment re the food, but thought I would make a helpful suggestion as far as his peeing and cleanup. When Nadir was having incontinence issues, he too would pee a lot. I started putting down the flat waterproof mattress pads on the floor in the spots he tended to pee. It was so much easier to hose them off outside and then throw them into the washing machine then to have to clean and mop my floor with every accident.

 

Wow what an absolutely greyt idea....that alone alleviates some of my duress! Thank you and I will be trying that. Waiting for vet to call back...

[Guest greytsmom]

What do the blood tests show? Low albumin? What about folate and cobalamin? Pancreas okay? I would think these will help guide you to possible causes. Or at least eliminate some.

 

My IBD dog started out with Metronidazole (antibiotic), Prednisone, and Azathioprine (immunosupressor). We are down to the latter two every 3 days. Eventually, she'll only get the Azathioprine, probably for life.

Not sure of what all she ran (and wouldn't know what they meant if I did). She said initially, his protein level was abnormal . He was losing weight rapidly during this time. His labs are all now normal and he has been gradually gaining weight. In that respect he is much improved. We just can't get the poops right and and get him off the prednisone.

[tbhounds]

Personally, I would seek out a second opinion with an internist. Your vet may be very well meaning but, true IBD can be a very hard dsease to manage/control. There are so many ways to approach the care of an IBD dog. There are other tests that your vet may or may have not run. TLI, spec cpl, folate, fecal cultures, endoscopy...think you see my point. Your vet should not hestitate to refer you out if he/she truly cares about the health of your pet.

[RobinM]

I meant to ask but forgot in the above post. How exactly was your dog diagnosed with IBD?

[GreyPoopon]

Not all dogs do well on z/d. It might be worth trying something else.

 

Another option, although a lot of vets don't like it: food allergy blood tests. The information from them has helped me a lot.

[RobinM]

Not all dogs do well on z/d. It might be worth trying something else.

 

Another option, although a lot of vets don't like it: food allergy blood tests. The information from them has helped me a lot.

 

Yes, z/d although a hypo allergenic food can cause loose stools. There is also HP by Purina and HP by Royalo, the most palatable of them all. BUT Z/D is the only one with wet food too.

[Guest greytsmom]

It was our decision not to scope PJay... He was dx by history, symptoms and blood tests. I know there are other diseases that mimic similar symptoms. Our vet just returned 2 weeks ago from the Western Conference (largest annual vet event)where this problem was featured. After starting his fourth round of antibiotics and only three doses into it, his stool is alresdy improved. She said the vet who spoke at the conference said some dogs may need to be on ATB daily indefinitely or a schedule such as a week on and a week off. Basically, whatever works for that dog..."no apologies". She also said because the chicken is processed (in Z/D) in such a way that it becomes "mush" and the body does not recognize it as a protein..hence no antigen-antibody respones.

 

The bottom line is, he is better; blood tests normal and regaining lost weight. I am just frustrated (for many reasons) at the length of time it is taking to get this all right. We are going to stop the prednisone, and continue the antibiotics since for now it seems his stool improves when he is on it. If we find he also needs a steroid we will try budenoside. In the end, we may have to scope if our efforts are unsuccessful.

Edited March 3, 2010 by greytsmom

[greyhead]

Sounds like a plan! Glad to hear PJay is gaining weight too.

 

We didn't scope either. Ultrasound showed that the problem area wasn't accessible by scope. We didn't want to do a surgical biopsy either, on a then 8-year-old dog who had already lost 20 pounds. It seems that even when the vets discover by biopsy the exact inflammatory cell type, it's still a matter of trial and error as to what treatment works on what individual dog.

 

So hang in there. It does take a while. And don't discount the novel protein approach if further change seems needed. I gather not every IBD dog does well on Z/D even if it is unrecognizable mush.

[Guest kydie]

IBD here, we scoped and sent biospies, many vets take the dog of flagyl and steriods, too soon, and the dog goes up and down, glad it is going better

[Guest greytsmom]

Sounds like a plan! Glad to hear PJay is gaining weight too.

 

We didn't scope either. Ultrasound showed that the problem area wasn't accessible by scope. We didn't want to do a surgical biopsy either, on a then 8-year-old dog who had already lost 20 pounds. It seems that even when the vets discover by biopsy the exact inflammatory cell type, it's still a matter of trial and error as to what treatment works on what individual dog.

 

So hang in there. It does take a while. And don't discount the novel protein approach if further change seems needed. I gather not every IBD dog does well on Z/D even if it is unrecognizable mush.

Thank you greyhead for you words of encouragement. I do appreciate them. Stool today was not as good as yesterday, but still formed. And this is what my life has become...poop watcher/evaluater

 

I will re-visit trying a different dog food if things don't improve long term. My vet seems to think that will not work. "Z/D is the only hypoallergenic food." She said even venison is not a novel protein around here. I know there is kangaroo meat and fish. One of the hardest things is to be patient.

 

I am glad you grey is doing well. It is scary how much weight they can lose and so quickly. Our PJay lost 14#. He looked like a survivor from Auschwitz. It was awful to watch and I just couldn't imagine how he could be comfortable despite our efforts to provide extra padding.

 

Thank you and everyone here for your words of wisdom and kindness.

Edited March 4, 2010 by greytsmom

[greyhead]

I will re-visit trying a different dog food if things don't improve long term. My vet seems to think that will not work. "Z/D is the only hypoallergenic food." She said even venison is not a novel protein around here.

 

What matters is not that the protein be novel to the geographic area but that it be novel to the individual animal!

I hope I'm misunderstanding your vet's point; if I'm not, I'd hazard to say she's not at the top of her game on nutrition and IBD.

 

Don't hesitate to get a second opinion. We had to look around a bit but found an excellent internist for IBD who was willing to work with us and our regular vet despite the lack of biopsy. (I'm not interested in textbook approaches that cover the vet's a$$ but put my dog at unnecessary risk.)

 

You might also inquire on the Food & Nutrition forum here to get a full range of opinions/experiences on prescription diets, other limited-ingredient commercial foods, and raw feeding, all of those in dogs whose health is compromised. But please also update this thread as things progress since we're all paying attention and caring how this goes!

 

Largest of hugs,

Mary

[Batmom]

I will re-visit trying a different dog food if things don't improve long term. My vet seems to think that will not work. "Z/D is the only hypoallergenic food." She said even venison is not a novel protein around here.

 

What matters is not that the protein be novel to the geographic area but that it be novel to the individual animal!

I hope I'm misunderstanding your vet's point; if I'm not, I'd hazard to say she's not at the top of her game on nutrition and IBD.

 

 

Actually, in that respect, she *is* at the top of her game. Z/D (and one or two other prescrip foods) use hydrolyzed proteins. So, the label says chicken, but to the dog's system, that chicken is not recognizable as such. Hydrolyzing breaks it down -- sorta predigests it -- so that in most cases it isn't recognized as an allergen. There's no way to replicate that in a homeprepped diet. Which is not to say that the dog can't eat a non-hydrolyzed protein that is truly novel; it's just that with the proliferation of fancier commercial dog foods, very few proteins are truly novel any more, and one has no way of knowing which protein might be novel to which dog. I'd agree with her about venison -- it's in a lot of commercial dog foods and treats these days. In any case, that's why Z/D (and those few others) are the first "go to" foods for severe allergies/IBD.

[greyhead]

Did I take the phrase "around here" too literally? Sounded geographic to me.

 

I'm aware of the theory of hydrolyzed protein. And that it's the standard answer from vets about IBD diets. Even that it's *considered* the gold-standard answer. But I stand on my assertion that not all IBD dogs do well on those diets. And that my definition of a great vet is one who can think outside the box to find alternatives for individuals who aren't thriving under any given protocol. Just my opinion.