Beau

[AngelWhispers]

Your vet is correct that it can take a few months for Beau to heal, but it doesn't hurt to get a second opinion. When Fields was diagnosed with IBD he lost 12lbs in 2 weeks and it took about 3 months for him to start gaining it back. It was agonizing for me and it seemed like it took forever for his body to start absorbing nutrients. He's fat, dumb and happy now as long as he stays on his strict diet.

[RobinM]

Now I feel bad, Kayla is even more thin that.

 

Forgive me, I don't know much about IBD but can he have Ensure or is that a no-no? Our vet said to let Kayla drink her calories.

 

Best of luck to you and Beau. I can understand that you might feel like you are "cheating" but we need to do all we can to help our pups and if that means getting another consult, a second opinion - there's no harm in that.

 

Best of luck to you and Beau.

 

no, the ONLY thing he can have is white fish and sweet potato. When he is stable, if he got his paws on some crumbs of let's say a chicken tender which are a favorite of my pack, he could have a set back that brings him to where he was in the very beginning. Much like alcoholics. They can't have. PERIOD. Like alcoholism, it's a progressive disease.

 

 

[Guest TaraCoachCougar]

Praying for weight gain and comfort for mom...

[Batmom]

How much does a whole fish weigh? In lbs., he'd have to *average* @ 3 lbs. per day to maintain his old weight (assuming he was maintaining on 3 cups/day of a fairly high-cal kibble plus some treats prior to his illness). So, unless he's averaging significantly more than that, he isn't going to gain weight very fast. Might talk to your consulting vet about adding -- GRADUALLY -- a fat source (fish oil, corn oil, olive oil) to his regime to get some more calories into him.

[ahicks51]

There's only a couple of things I could pull out of my box of tricks right now, and both of them are pretty much "yeah, so what?" from a veterinary perspective.

 

1) Run a fecal culture for bacteria. Do a perianal swab, plate out on MacConkey agar, and see what grows in anaerobic conditions. Probably won't yield much of anything useful, but I'd be really suspicious if any one thing popped up right now. I mean, you're going to find bacteria (that's the "yeah, so what?" aspect), and even if you do find anything out of whack, there may be nothing specific to treat with... except:

 

2) Xifaxan (Rifaximin), which is a creepy, semi-synthetic antibiotic that is commonly used for a number of gastrointestinal disorders. In humans, almost none of it is absorbed, meaning the feces are laden with antibiotics; this in turn can wipe out *some* susceptible critters in the gut. In that sense, it's similar to Flagyl, but at about 25x the price ($5 a pill for human-sized doses). I don't know as it's even safe to use it in the canine. But once again, yeah- so what? If you don't know what you're shooting for, how do you know you're going to hit something? It's grasping at straws, same as the bacterial culture I suggested above.

 

The good news is, if your average tilapia comes in at about a pound, 3.5 pounds of tilapia works out to about 1500 grams. According to the USDA tables, 100 grams of tilapia comes in at about 96 calories (about 1 calorie per gram); at 1500 grams/day, that works out to about 1500 calories, or (according to what http://www.mycockerspaniel.com/mer.htm has to say for a "less active" dog of 75 pounds) an adequate number of calories. (Are you feeding cooked or raw? Beware the thiaminase, found in raw fish, which will break down vitamin B1.)

 

In short, if the damage has stopped and repair is in the works, eating that much food will certainly work in his favor.

 

The vet sounds pretty sharp. You might ask for a phone consult; although she's going to want to see Beau, if she gets copies of his records and gives her opinion, maybe you can save the stress (and energy "burn") of another trip to the vet's.

 

Do you happen to have copies of his blood values? Anything that's out of norms might be illuminating so long as I'm stabbing in the dark. Dumb looks are still free.

 

ETA: One more dumb free dumb look: menhaden (fish) oil, if it's allowed. Might add food appeal, in conjunction with nice calories.

Edited January 29, 2009 by ahicks51

[fsugrad]

Oh, handsome Beau, please feel better soon, sweetie.

[VinnieAndRexsMom]

The consult is a good idea. How under weight is he?

 

My expereince is that when they start to eat, the weight comes on slowly. Chase came to me worse than Beau. He took about three months to put it all back on, but it started when he began to eat. He was emaciated for different reasons though, so getting him to at was not a problem. I thought he would stay boney forever. It is very worrisome.

 

He is very, very underweight. He is getting a decent amount of protein, calories and omega 3s BUT he is not absorbing which is par for the course.

 

On the yahoo IBD boards there is a greyhound who should weigh 71. He weighs 56 and gets 8 cups a food a day. Can you imagine? IBD is a nasty nasty disease. One that I wish to G-D, my poor Beau Bead did not have. NO ONE should have to have it.

Yes, I know about IBD and ulcerative colitis; both have affected people close to me. They can be very ugly. And I'm sorry for the other grey. Recovery is a long, slow process.

 

So, from the pic you posted, Beau does look really thin. What I was wondering is how below weight is he, so we have a better idea what we are seeing in the picture and how far he has to go for his recovery.

 

I'm really glad he likes his fish. He will get better.

 

Remember, right now, any calories he is eating is going towards healing, not putting on weight.

Good point.

 

 

[Guest PiagetsMom]

Oh, Robin.......that just makes my heart break, for Beau and for you. If seeing this Internist will give you even a little peace of mind, then you're doing the right thing.

[Guest taylorsmom]

Robin, I am so so sorry to see poor Beau looking so thin. You are doing so much to help him, and I totally agree that it is important to get as many extra consults that you need to pursue all avenues. I know I would just be beside myself to see one of my babies get so thin before my eyes.

 

I know also that you have had many many many suggestions to try to help sweet handsome Beau. I wanted to offer one more little suggestion, you can take it or leave it. When my dogs have had some milder bouts of irritable bowel (both Taylor and Lucy did when they first came to live here) I used this holistic product called Phytomucil. It is made by Animal Apawthecary (made for canines), and you can look at it on their website. It is a liquid and is made of slippery elm, licorice root and other natural herbs that are supposed to soothe, coat and help heal the mucous membranes of the GI tract. I know that you are trying not to add anything with a taste that would turn him off his food, but perhaps this is something that you can squirt into his water and see if he will drink it that way. It doesn't take much, and it is very mild, almost sweet tasting (I did taste it before I gave it to my pups, I admit it!!). It is now the only thing I keep on hand for bouts of diarrhea, which are pretty rare here.

 

I am praying for Beau, and for you, to keep healing (his gut and your heart!!).

[queenwinniesmom]

It's understandable that your are so worried and frustrated, especially since you are trying everything in your power to help him. Four years old is really young to be so sick.

Precious Beau, please get better!

 

[RobinM]

 

Yes, I know about IBD and ulcerative colitis; both have affected people close to me. They can be very ugly. And I'm sorry for the other grey. Recovery is a long, slow process.

 

So, from the pic you posted, Beau does look really thin. What I was wondering is how below weight is he, so we have a better idea what we are seeing in the picture and how far he has to go for his recovery.

 

 

 

Beau raced at 63 and was never more than 64 or 65 with me. He always looked svelte, really good, not too thin. he just didn't gain like the others. I belive the IBD was lying dormant. Looking back, now I see how breakfast was not eaten the way the others did and his poop was always very soft. Enough so that I would have it tested once in a while.

 

At the weigh in at the time of surgery, he was 60 pounds, his face was sunken in and he looked thin. The vet had the tech recheck it three times since she was convinced he had lost more than 4 pounds.

Since the day I brought him in for surgery, he has lost considerably. NOW, he looks like a sick dog.

 

I will find out on Friday how much. he weighs. It will be a different scale, but it should be close.

[Guest Leah]

Get better soon Beau

[greyhndz]

Robin, remember, too, that a lot of what you're seeing is muscle wasting from malnutrition, and, to a lesser extent, can be a side effect of prednisone over the long term. Also remember that the endoscopy was a diagnostic procedure, not a corrective one, so although you now come away with a lot more information, you wouldn't expect to see any change in his condition as a result of the scope.

 

Good for you for seeking an IM consultation. Autoimmune inflammatory diseases such as IBD require a vet well-versed in the use of immunosuppressant/immunomodulating agents -- prednisone works well for acute flares or to initially treat severe disease, but ideally you'd like to get him off steroids ASAP (though it can take many months). Budesonide (Encort) may be a good alternative, as it's an enteric coated steroid designed to have an effect on bowel but minimal systemic side effects (panting, incr. drinking/urination, muscle wasting, etc.). And most IM specialists would be getting him started on an immunomodulator such as azathioprine or cyclosporine while slowly tapering down the steroids. This would probably be a lifetime medication for him.

 

The inflammation in the bowel takes a long time to resolve, and until it does, Beau will not be properly absorbing nutrients, thus probably not gaining significant weight. But in the weeks and months ahead, as his immune system is suppressed and the inflammation subsides, he will improve. No quick cures for IBD, just lots of trial and error, and waiting to see if the treatment plan is working.

 

It just seems that it's a perpetual roller coaster with the IBD pups, especially where diet is concerned. You might ask the IM vet to recommend a veterinary nutritionist who can guide you through this maze.

 

Always wishing Beau and you the very best...

Jordan

[ahicks51]

It is a liquid and is made of slippery elm, licorice root and other natural herbs that are supposed to soothe, coat and help heal the mucous membranes of the GI tract.

 

Come to think of it, slippery elm has proven to be quite useful for humans. Can't speak to its utility in dogs.

[Guest SoulsMom]

It is a liquid and is made of slippery elm, licorice root and other natural herbs that are supposed to soothe, coat and help heal the mucous membranes of the GI tract.

 

Come to think of it, slippery elm has proven to be quite useful for humans. Can't speak to its utility in dogs.

 

Deb (greytbookert) had some luck with slippery elm when Booker was going through IBD. Hopefully she'll chime in, I know she has suggested it before . . .

 

Robin, I know just how you feel. The weight seems to melt off and take forever to come back on. Soul looked just like Beau after his bout of HGE that required hospitialization. It took a good month to get the weight back on him. Then with his mini-bout on New Years day he went from looking good to bony in ONE day. Hang in there . . . .

Edited January 29, 2009 by SoulsMom

[RobinM]

Robin, remember, too, that a lot of what you're seeing is muscle wasting from malnutrition, and, to a lesser extent, can be a side effect of prednisone over the long term. Also remember that the endoscopy was a diagnostic procedure, not a corrective one, so although you now come away with a lot more information, you wouldn't expect to see any change in his condition as a result of the scope.

 

Beau did not have a scope. he had open abdominal exploratory surgery so we would know once and for all what the real cause of this was.

 

Now, we know.

[Guest greytbookert]

It is a liquid and is made of slippery elm, licorice root and other natural herbs that are supposed to soothe, coat and help heal the mucous membranes of the GI tract.

 

Come to think of it, slippery elm has proven to be quite useful for humans. Can't speak to its utility in dogs.

 

Deb (greytbookert) had some luck with slippery elm when Booker was going through IBD. Hopefully she'll chime in, I know she has suggested it before . . .

 

Robin, I know just how you feel. The weight seems to melt off and take forever to come back on. Soul looked just like Beau after his bout of HGE that required hospitialization. It took a good month to get the weight back on him. Then with his mini-bout on New Years day he went from looking good to bony in ONE day. Hang in there . . . .

 

 

Yes, we used the slippery elm bark powder with Booker, we also used bovine colostrum. Booker was also wasting away in front of our eyes but with a healing diet that was developed for him, and the addition of those two supplements, he was on his way to recovery. It did take about a month though. I think the colostrum is what stimulated his appetite. We were going crazy trying to get him to eat. Ensure helped him as did those yogurt smoothies. We poured it on his food and would gobble it up.

[Guest Becki]

Robin, Max looked like that (and worse) before he began his turnaround.

 

I am glad you have found a protein he can handle. Good luck with your appointment tomorrow

[MP_the4pack]

Don't feel like you're cheating on your vet. I take my girls to specialists all the time and my "GP's" know this. They still get a chunk of my money and I believe are actually relieved not to have to worry about the tough stuff. (one of my vets did misdiagnose as abscessed tooth as myocytis.)

 

Besides, Beau's health is more important that vet's feelings.

 

 

[carronstar]

You are absolutely not cheating on your vet. I can only imagine that she will be thrilled to have a fresh set of eyes look at the problem and help Beau.

 

Keeping Beau, you, and your whole crew in my thoughts and prayers.

 

How is DH's back doing?

[RobinM]

You are absolutely not cheating on your vet. I can only imagine that she will be thrilled to have a fresh set of eyes look at the problem and help Beau.

 

Keeping Beau, you, and your whole crew in my thoughts and prayers.

 

How is DH's back doing?

 

DH back is getting better after 2 chiro appointments. Still not able to pick up Polli so i have been doing that without any help. but hopefully he will be all better soon. problem is that once it's been acting up and he continues to lift her, it could happen again. but we have no options for this one.

[CaliforniaGreys]

Keeping Beau in my prayers

[Guest Javagirl]

It is a liquid and is made of slippery elm, licorice root and other natural herbs that are supposed to soothe, coat and help heal the mucous membranes of the GI tract.

 

Come to think of it, slippery elm has proven to be quite useful for humans. Can't speak to its utility in dogs.

 

Deb (greytbookert) had some luck with slippery elm when Booker was going through IBD. Hopefully she'll chime in, I know she has suggested it before . . .

 

Robin, I know just how you feel. The weight seems to melt off and take forever to come back on. Soul looked just like Beau after his bout of HGE that required hospitialization. It took a good month to get the weight back on him. Then with his mini-bout on New Years day he went from looking good to bony in ONE day. Hang in there . . . .

 

 

Yes, we used the slippery elm bark powder with Booker, we also used bovine colostrum. Booker was also wasting away in front of our eyes but with a healing diet that was developed for him, and the addition of those two supplements, he was on his way to recovery. It did take about a month though. I think the colostrum is what stimulated his appetite. We were going crazy trying to get him to eat. Ensure helped him as did those yogurt smoothies. We poured it on his food and would gobble it up.

 

We used slippery elm with great results when we were not sure if Ladd had IBD when we adopted him. It was recommended to us by a very well known holistic Vet who works in Kingston, NY and NYC. http://holvet.net/slippery_soup.html

However, this is truly a dire situation and wouldn't want it to somehow react with a med in his system which is already fragile. Dr. Yasson offers 1 free consult for potential clients. It might be worth calling her.

Kristyn

 

[Guest koolaidnconner]

I don;t think your vet is thinking that you are "cheating" on her. Our vet made the appointments for us for 2nd and 3rd opinions. She was greyt.

 

I know I have said this before but if the food your on is not helping after awhile. I would ask your vet about z/d ultra allergen free.

 

Is that fish and sweet potatoe human food? With our experiance with Conner he is completly forbidden to eat any type of people food. The vet even asked us to put some pumpkin in his food for some type of protein before we got a diagnosis and he was still sick.

 

I have to say that Conner just being on Z/D we saw improvement within days, and although it's boring stuff for him, it is keeping him alive, and somewhat well. We still have a few problems here and there when he gets a hold of something he does not like but overall he is living a much, much better life than before the Z/D.

[duncan41]

Have you looked into consulting a canine nutritionist? Maybe the specialist can recommend someone and they can work together. Still sending buckets of prayers and healing thoughts for Beau!