Kidney function and Propalin/Proin

[MattB]

Hi (me again)

Following Daisy's (12 1/2 yo girl) heart investigations which were very uneventful in the end (small leak in mitral valve) I mentioned the excessive drinking and they've done blood tests and urine tests to check out Daisy's kidney function. I'm not completely sure of all of the different tests but will try to pass on all of the info I've been given. 

The blood test was normal - my understanding is that this is good as otherwise Daisy would have lost more than 75% of function. 

Another test showed raised creatinine (which they said could be due to her breed)

Finally there was a raising of SDMA which is what I understand has indicated some loss of kidney function. 

While I waited for these tests I looked up side effects and contraindications of propalin as, after initially thinking it was doing great things, I feel this is having some side effects - panting immediately after administering it and I think it's interfering with Daisy knowing when she needs to urinate - she will lick and lick and I'll take her outside where she will stare blankly at me and I'll walk around the garden with her and suddenly she'll squat down and have the most enormous wee. I noted that the information about the medication says that it should be 'used with caution in dogs with kidney disease'. So I mentioned this to the vet and we agreed we should try without. Well this seems to have had a really profound effect, Daisy is still leaking a bit but she's now asking to go out much more - so she seems to have more idea when she needs to go out. 

So my question (finally) is whether the kidney tests have been influenced by the Propalin. The vet said that she didn't think the propalin has caused kidney problems but may have exacerbated them, with this in mind she said we could:

a) start a renal diet straight away

b) have a few weeks of 'washout' and then start the new diet - then test Daisy's kidney function again after 4-6 weeks.

She recommended a) which I'm inclined to agree with - I feel better about being proactive given Daisy's fairly advanced years and hope that we can preserve kidney function for as long as possible. My concerns about the renal diet are that I don't want to make Daisy miserable with food she's not into - we vary her meals a lot and she goes crazy for treats. 

I would be really interested in hearing others' thoughts on this. 

 

Matt

[greysmom]

Get her off the Proin.  It's usually contraindicated for greyhounds anyway as it can dangerously raise their blood pressure to the point of causing a stroke/death.  The high blood pressure can also cause kidney damage.  There are better drugs to use for the leaking.  We use a drug called D.E.S (because it's too hard to pronounce!  ).

Diethylstilbestrol (DES) is a synthetic estrogen that can be used in some female dogs to treat urinary incontinence (leaking).

Some dogs really like renal diets and some won't eat them at all, you'll just need to give it a try.  You might check around the internet for a home made renal diet that was published once upon a time.  You can use it as a topper or add in to the commercial diet if necessary.

[zimsmom]

DES user here for 13 1/2 year old; twice weekly works really well.  I declined the proin from all I read on here.  

[MattB]

3 hours ago, greysmom said:

Get her off the Proin.  It's usually contraindicated for greyhounds anyway as it can dangerously raise their blood pressure to the point of causing a stroke/death

Thanks for this. Daisy has been on for about 8 weeks. It's frustrating if it's so bad that a vet would prescribe it. She's so much more relaxed since we stopped that I feel awful I've been giving it to her 

 

1 hour ago, zimsmom said:

DES user here for 13 1/2 year old; twice weekly works really well.  I declined the proin from all I read on here.  

Thanks. I'll ask about this. The Propanol was instead of Incurin (daily) that didn't seem to be working although I've been told since that it can take a while to have an effect. In the meantime I'm just making sure to let Daisy out LOTS.

[greysmom]

It doesn't bother most dogs, and is the drug of choice for urinary incontinence.  Another greyhound medical quirk to put in the bucket.  

You can also use doggy diapers for overnight or when you need to be gone for extended periods.

[cleptogrey]

i vote for doggie diapers and cook white rice with an entire chicken in it. if you have an IINSTAPOTor pressure cooker use that.  debone the chicken and dice, mix in rice. i have kept 3 dogs alive for YEARS on the white rice diet and saved a fortune not purchasing speciality vet diets. your dog will love it and white bread toasted- cut into small bits and serve as dog biscuits. it's sweet and yummy- must be toasted or it gets stuck on the roof of their mouth.  also cereal is a good tasty carb that is well liked and low protein(that's what you want to avoid w/ kidney decline).

des is an excellent fix. some dogs do well on proin. from what i have read over the years GH tend not to. 

don't let your vet take you for a ride. if she is eating, quality of life is o.k. then let daisy enjoy her golden years.

[MattB]

13 hours ago, cleptogrey said:

don't let your vet take you for a ride. i

Hey thanks - There is a nice couple of vets at the practice who I can talk to openly (although one is a little flippant) - it's a couple of the younger ones, actually who one of the senior ones 'warned' me about anecdotally who seem to be very focussed on diagnosis and treatment . For example I spoke to one after Daisy's first result suggested reduced kidney function and asked what the next steps were, they said that we should do an x-ray to see the size and shape of the kidneys and that would help to make a more accurate diagnosis, I asked if this would impact treatment at all and they paused before saying 'no', I'm not knocking vets but I do feel I sometimes need to be careful about being steered down a path that's not right for Daisy.

I suppose it's about striking the right balance. I'm definitely up for chicken and rice as that's what I was giving her until recently after her (suspected) stomach ulcer made her very poorly.

[Remolacha]

Balance is the key! A young vet can make mistakes through lack of experience, or and older vet can be somewhat hidebound and not open to new treatments or input from owners. Sounds like you have the right attitude, question, question, question!

Hope Daisy is feeling well.