MattB

Thanks so much everyone - and sorry for the lack of response, I had written a note of gratitude and for some reason I hadn't submitted properly. Feels like I want to sleep for a week now (which I can't do at the moment - small child) but I have started a list of memories. It's the day to day I want to remember the most, where Daisy lay, how she let me know when she wanted food (all the time) and how she always took a huge sigh (relief?) when I got home from work. xx

Daisy left us in August, she had been living with kidney disease for 18 months but well managed with diet. Her back legs had been getting weaker and our vet suggested Librela - I don't blame anyone or anything but the evening of her first injection she had a massive decline, her whole face changed and we wondered if it was a stroke. In the morning she was unsteady, uncomfortable and I knew it was time. She left very peacefully, held out her paw to the vet (and she hated HATED anyone touching her paws) and I swear I felt the fluttering of wings as she closed her eyes. I feel like there's something wrong with me emotionally - my dogs have been my world for the past 8 years and since Charlie left 18 months and Daisy in August, I've barely spoken their names. It's like they are in a part of my brain I can't access, I look at photos on the wall and they feel like strangers, I can't remember much about the 2 walks EVERY SINGLE DAY for the past 8 years, or sleeping on the floor with Daisy for the last year because her back was bad and I didn't want her trying to get to my bed upstairs, or cleaning their teeth every night. I sometimes cooked 4 times a day for Daisy during periods where she went off her food would only eat freshly cooked food and sometimes would only eat from my hand for weeks at a time. I can remember all the love and sometimes just cry spontaneously at the emptiness, but the day to day things feel like they've just gone and though it's only been 2 months it's like it was years ago. I don't know if this is a protective mechanism because it's just too painful. Do other people have this? I feel quite ashamed to even write this. I hear people talking about little details of life with their hounds and if feels like I'm forgetting everything.

Just an update. We went to the vet today who says she's fairly sure Daisy's problem is back-related and the swelling on her ankle is arthritic (Daisy was diagnosed with advanced arthritis in her front legs 7 years ago) We talked about my x-ray worries and she said she doesn't think we need one right now but if we do she will saute Daisy in the car and x-ray hey straight away and have her back on her sofa asap. So for the moment we're doing gabapentin + paracetamol and cuddles - Thanks everyone for your input.

Thanks so much everyone. I spoke to the vet and he was happy, based on my description to give a few days of gabapentin and I'll bring her straight in if that doesn't help. I may have explained badly, I wasn't meaning to imply that I was just going to wait for it to get worse but rather questioning if diagnostics would change the outcome. I don't think I explained very well. Of course if is a case of, well it could be X which is very treatable then it's absolutely worth it. But I still have the vet's words in my head from my lovely Charlie who we lost 8 months ago, when he put him to sleep while he was still under he said 'We all knew there was only a small chance there would be a good outcome but at least you tried everything', but I'm not sure I had known that so I sometimes wonder if the X-ray was the right thing to do. Anyway, it's time for our short bedtime walk now - thanks all.

Thanks - No I absolutely agree, I wasn't suggesting that I didn't do anything and I'm just waiting for a call back from the vet now. More questioning whether it is likely to be helpful at all. I.e. is there a situation where there is something treatable or will it always end in having to say goodbye, in which case would it be better to do so together without putting her through an x-ray given her age and other health problems. This may be an entirely unjustified positive and of course I don't want Daisy to go a day earlier than she needs to, it just comes from my experiences with the last 3 greyhounds we've had. Unfortunately I don't think there is any flexibility with this process (there wasn't last time with this vet anyway) - I think because they're such a busy practice - but of course I will try to go through all possible options with the vet. Thanks both.

I will write this as objectively as I can as I'm feeling quite tearful. Daisy, who I've posted about before, has been doing well in spite of her kidney disease but her back and in particular one of her rear legs seems to have been getting weaker which has been discussed with the vet a few times. Her rear right is a leg we think she has pulled a muscle in previously and recovered from, but today she is limping more on it. She has painkillers and she seems her happy self but I have a sense of dread. I would like to give Daisy a day or so to see if her leg is going to improve - she has had a couple of slips on the ice recently, although that was a few days ago so I don't think it's that. She is only taking paracetamol as she hasn't got on with Previcox (suspected ulcers) but I would imagine that we could use for something acute if necessary or look at other meds. My fear is that the vet will suggest an x-ray and, if there is bad news, not bringing her round. However, as I've probably mentioned a few times in other posts, Daisy is such a nervous dog, I know that leaving her at the vets while she waited for an x-ray would be unbelievable stressful for her and I can't bear for her to spend potentially her last day so unhappy. But what is the other option? Take her to the vet and see if she could have some stronger painkillers for a couple of days and then say goodbye if it doesn't help? I'm feel like with an elderly dog there are likely to be limited options even if not osteo. I would really value other perspectives on this and happy to be told that I'm wrong.

Thank you so much everyone. As many of you know, caring for an elderly hound can be emotionally draining. Your support means an awful lot. Mx

Thanks for this Both. Dr Couto is a good idea - I will hang fire until Daisy's next bloods as this will no doubt be helpful. I really like my vet but sometimes feel they are too enthusiastic about tests - a recent example a vet (different from normal but same practice) suggested a kidney scan, I asked if the outcome would impact anything at all and they said 'No', I've also been sent for a horrendously expensive cardiology appointment who said there was nothing to report (very very tiny aortic valve leak) but said she was so nervous she was very difficult to deal with and she'd had a traumatic few hours. Daisy has had a great life but things that would seem minor to other dogs I've had, such as a quick visit to the vet, really take a toll on her. Part of me wants to just keep her at home on as good a renal diet as she will eat and forget about the vet unless she has symptoms - I'm aware this may be burying my head in the sand and that blood tests give me a heads up on how I can help her with a modified diet, but the balance needs to be right. Thank you for your perspectives :)

Daisy is nearly 13. She has kidney disease, initially diagnosed nearly 6 months and my understanding was it was stage 3, but given greyhounds' higher creatinine levels more like stage 2. She did well on renal food and her tests 4 months later showed creatinine back to normal. However eating has become a struggle, I don't think this is new, she's always been very picky. I think this is sometimes linked to how nervous she is; she would always literally run away from a bowl of unfamiliar food e.g. scrambled eggs. We've been through all of the big brands and she eats them for a while then goes off then. I've been homecooking but again she's gone off anything I make. Anyway, this wasn't about eating difficulties, while Daisy's blood was generally normal, she had high lipase levels indicating pancreas inflammation so I reduced fat by going to exclusively home cooked meals with grilled meats and low fat versions of recipes to hopefully reduce the pancreatitis - which it did. We repeated the bloods 2 weeks later after 12 hrs of fasting which was difficult for Daisy as she eats most of her food quite late (this could be morning nausea which hopefully is being managed now). Her lipase was now normal but her cholesterol and triglycerides were still high. The vet then wanted an 18hr fast to retest but I've heard from other owners that after pancreatitis it can take these levels weeks to return to normal so I felt like these levels were probably to be expected. The vet wondered if it could be a thyroid issue but I said, rather than another test could we hang on a few weeks to tag it on to her routine bloods but she still suggested an 18hr fast. I've gone along with everything the vet has suggested but I really feel strongly about the fasting, partly because I don't want to put her through the discomfort but mainly because I don't think there's anything wrong. She has some intermittent incontinence but other than that she is really really well. We went on 3 walks yesterday and she could have continued. She's sleepy when she's not walking but I've found some new food brands and she's really enjoying her food at the moment. I don't want to be ignorant and if she was 7 years old and/or poorly I wouldn't hesitate, but the bloods seem to fit with the pancreatitis which we can look at again in the next routine bloods, just with no fasting. Or am I am idiot?

Thanks greysmom - I'm sorry you've lost dogs through kidney failure. Thanks for that info - yes so it's a balance between the 'ideal' food and getting her to eat. At the moment I don't think we're doing too bad, she's currently eyeballing me waiting for our night walk. But I do know that at her age we never know how long we have left together - kidney disease or not!

Thanks. You're right - it's not as simple as rice and chicken and veg. I've been reading a webpage by someone who did a lot of research and has a recipe for a homecooked meal his dog food well on. Thanks for the FB pages, I've joined one but it is, sadly, mainly much more poorly dogs than Daisy and I felt uncomfortable posting when Daisy is so well at the moment.

Oh I'm sorry to hear about Hada - I hope she continues to do well on her new food. Thanks for this. Royal Canin is one of the ones we use - the dry and the wet. Unfortunately as far as I can tell they only do one flavour in the UK. Hills do a couple of types of tinned food - the chicken stew is the one we have the most success with. At the start I cooked a lot of food for her - chicken with rice and vegetables - but she wouldn't eat it once reheated so it meant cooking 3-4 times per day which I struggled with. Maybe a compromise where she gets a mixture of cooked and wet/dry is the way to go for a bit.

I have posted about Daisy (12 1/2) who was diagnosed with reduced kidney function about 4 months ago. There was discussion about whether it was possible that the propalin had led to her kidney function dropping but the vet suggested that although it (propalin) had potentially had a negative effect on her kidneys she thought they were likely struggling already. The good news is that they think it is early stage and we immediately switched to a renal diet which initially Daisy enjoyed. Although very sleepy, Daisy is generally doing well, glossy coat, enjoys her 2x walks and has a lot of cuddles. Our problem now is that we've cycled through ALL of the different renal foods we can find and Daisy is going off them. We are using baked tinned food as a treat which she is most enthusiastic about but this seems to be getting less exciting by the day. I have been mixing a small amount of 'normal' tinned food in with her renal food which she goes nuts for - sometimes just a little bit and sometimes a bit more if she hasn't eaten much that day. Last night she took a slice of our toddler's pizza off the dinner table and I have never seen her look so happy and that's made me worry that her diet is reducing her quality of life. I've read some resources and I still find kidney function quite confusing - I want to do the best by Daisy and part of me feels like stopping her having her usual foods, and treats in particular, isn't fair on her. But on the other hand I don't want her kidney disease to progress unnecessarily quickly - when she was on her previous diet she seemed to be drinking more water so presumably this was her kidneys struggling to cope. Maybe I've answered my own question - try to keep her to the renal diet but put in other bits where this will help her to eat enough food. Do others have experience of this?

I hope this is the right thread to post on - I lost my beautiful Charlie a few months ago (I still struggle to talk, write or even look at photos of him at the moment but would love to write a tribute to him soon on this thread). I have his rope collar on my desk in front of me and I wonder if anyone has had anything made from a collar before - something like a bracelet or other keepsake that I could keep close by or wear myself. I also have his leather fishtail collar if anyone has ever had anything made from leather. Would love to hear from anyone who's done anything like this. Matt

Hey thanks - There is a nice couple of vets at the practice who I can talk to openly (although one is a little flippant) - it's a couple of the younger ones, actually who one of the senior ones 'warned' me about anecdotally who seem to be very focussed on diagnosis and treatment . For example I spoke to one after Daisy's first result suggested reduced kidney function and asked what the next steps were, they said that we should do an x-ray to see the size and shape of the kidneys and that would help to make a more accurate diagnosis, I asked if this would impact treatment at all and they paused before saying 'no', I'm not knocking vets but I do feel I sometimes need to be careful about being steered down a path that's not right for Daisy. I suppose it's about striking the right balance. I'm definitely up for chicken and rice as that's what I was giving her until recently after her (suspected) stomach ulcer made her very poorly.

Re: gunk our boy Charlie often had gunk in his left eye. Trial and error made us conclude that it was the side he lay down on and it got worse if his bed needed washed (as I write this aware we sound like slobs!).

Thanks for this. Daisy has been on for about 8 weeks. It's frustrating if it's so bad that a vet would prescribe it. She's so much more relaxed since we stopped that I feel awful I've been giving it to her Thanks. I'll ask about this. The Propanol was instead of Incurin (daily) that didn't seem to be working although I've been told since that it can take a while to have an effect. In the meantime I'm just making sure to let Daisy out LOTS.

Hi (me again) Following Daisy's (12 1/2 yo girl) heart investigations which were very uneventful in the end (small leak in mitral valve) I mentioned the excessive drinking and they've done blood tests and urine tests to check out Daisy's kidney function. I'm not completely sure of all of the different tests but will try to pass on all of the info I've been given. The blood test was normal - my understanding is that this is good as otherwise Daisy would have lost more than 75% of function. Another test showed raised creatinine (which they said could be due to her breed) Finally there was a raising of SDMA which is what I understand has indicated some loss of kidney function. While I waited for these tests I looked up side effects and contraindications of propalin as, after initially thinking it was doing great things, I feel this is having some side effects - panting immediately after administering it and I think it's interfering with Daisy knowing when she needs to urinate - she will lick and lick and I'll take her outside where she will stare blankly at me and I'll walk around the garden with her and suddenly she'll squat down and have the most enormous wee. I noted that the information about the medication says that it should be 'used with caution in dogs with kidney disease'. So I mentioned this to the vet and we agreed we should try without. Well this seems to have had a really profound effect, Daisy is still leaking a bit but she's now asking to go out much more - so she seems to have more idea when she needs to go out. So my question (finally) is whether the kidney tests have been influenced by the Propalin. The vet said that she didn't think the propalin has caused kidney problems but may have exacerbated them, with this in mind she said we could: a) start a renal diet straight away b) have a few weeks of 'washout' and then start the new diet - then test Daisy's kidney function again after 4-6 weeks. She recommended a) which I'm inclined to agree with - I feel better about being proactive given Daisy's fairly advanced years and hope that we can preserve kidney function for as long as possible. My concerns about the renal diet are that I don't want to make Daisy miserable with food she's not into - we vary her meals a lot and she goes crazy for treats. I would be really interested in hearing others' thoughts on this. Matt

Thanks - that's helpful to know. What has puzzled me is that she has had 3 lots of urine tests recently (last 2 months) all with normal results - and the last vet I spoke to said that the urine tests will provide some more info about kidney function - although she said that they would take cultures and send the sample away - so this must be a different test to the instant one they did in-house. I hope Val is ok.

Just an update: Daisy is home! Just got off the phone with the cardiologist. Daisy has a very loud heart murmur but surprisingly little showing up on the imaging - a small mitral valve leak or 'boring' as he put it. He said he doesn't need to see her again - this is good. The less good part: I mentioned that Daisy drinks a lot of water - they have done full-bloodwork and another test for kidney function - blood is ok - other test shows raised levels of creatinine - but not urea.... (is this possible). So the suggestion is likely early stage kidney disease, she's having urine tests to check this out further and then we will take it from there and think about how we manage it. The excessive thirst seemed to coincide with using the propalin and I've been reading about propalin needing to be 'used with caution' with kidney disease - I'm going to scour the greytalk archives for previous discussion about this. Thanks for your support everyone. Oh - the PS. I was quoted £200 for today's appointment ($276) and it came to £1150 ($1500) I don't resent the price at all - just refer back to my comment about practice admin and information!

Sorry I went off on a tangent but it's paracetamol. Daisy was very ill with a suspected stomach ulcer so previcox is contraindicated but she has arthritis in her front legs (since she was 5) and recently a very stuff back. She is on propalin but they are happy to give me a huge bottle of that.

Hey thanks for the support and the info re: ecg. I'm not sure if it's a UK thing but I've never known anyone do x-rays without sedation. Don't get me started on vets being jerks. I'm not sure where you are but it always sounds to me like there's a different culture in the USA in terms of being a lot more customer focused and the acknowledgement that, however long they have trained or how much knowledge they have, they are providing a service for paying customers. Honestly the amount of times I've been spoken to by rude receptionists and nurses too! Perhaps I shouldn't generalise too much - the practice I'm with is the best I've experienced, just seems that the admin isn't great - at the moment I'm in some odd groundhog loop with them only giving me 2 week's worth of meds at a time and every time I point out that it's long term and the vet said I could have 3 month's worth then they say they'll sort for next time and then I arrive to pick up another... 2 week's worth. I digress! Daisy's appt is on Thursday - I'm so scared.

Thanks so much everyone, really appreciate your thoughts. Very interesting re diet; I feel really ignorant having never heard of this. Re: the need for sedation, this isn't definite but a possibility if Daisy won't cooperate I think (my understanding). So fingers crossed she won't need it. But I think like everyone has agreed, if there is no advantage to the tests then I will suggest we leave it. It would be horrific to lose her from complications from a test that wasn't necessary.

Just checked and her current food is a 'sensitive' food which has added taurine - I'm assuming that's because taurine seems to be the missing nutrient of concern?

Is there a link between grain free and heart issues? I have never heard this? Although Daisy isn't grain free we have tried grain free off and on as she's struggled a lot with itching - so she'll have had some grain-free phases over the past 2-3 years.