Aggressive Incident Towards Other Dog

[Guest MuttonHoney]

Hi there,

We adopted our Daisy a little over a month ago. She is 6 years old, an ex-racer, and was in a family home until they moved rurally last year. She was returned to the shelter as she "reacts to stock". We were told to keep her muzzled anytime she is outside our home.

Last night, we stopped at an off-leash dog park with Daisy. This is only our third time doing so, and the first time she has encountered another dog off leash in our presence. As initially, she was the only dog in a fenced area, we had left her un-muzzled. Big mistake on our part. Another dog arrived, and before we could muzzle Daisy, the two ran up to each other. Initially, their body language seemed playful and friendly - the other dog was a medium-ish golden retriever. As soon as they started chasing each other though, I knew something was "off". Before we could intervene, she had the other dog pinned and was at its throat. The other dog was yelping and obviously unable to get away.

My husband and I were able to pull Daisy off the other dog. Miraculously, the other dog suffered only a cut to her tongue, although she did have several large tufts of fur that had been wrenched off. The owner of the other dog was shaken, but remarkably understanding, given what had just happened. I apologised profusely, offered our contact info, stayed with her while she attended to her dog and made sure there were no other injuries.

95% of the time, Daisy is the perfect companion. We take her for long, leashed walks and her behaviour towards other animals has never been of any concern on leash. However, if she gets aroused in the slightest - this can just be one of us running inside the house - she can get snappish. I know that air snaps are a common greyhound behaviour and was initially not worried, but she has closed her mouth on both myself and my husband - not broken the skin, but in my case, it was firm enough to cause some bruising. Since then, I have been making a conscious effort not to get her "wound up".

We have an 8 year old son, and the reality of our home situation is that we have several more years of small, unpredictable primary school aged children visiting regularly. The thought of Daisy getting over-excited and causing injury to a child in our home is my primary concern.

I've sent a request to the agency we adopted her through, to see if they have advice for us and if there is an animal behaviourist they recommend locally, but I thought perhaps you all might have some advice or more information for me take into account?

​Is this sort of behaviour something we can work through with her? It would seem that as long as we don't let her off-leash, or take her to dog parks, and don't start up any sort of chase games at home, her behaviour is fine - but is that suppressing an urge, and so not the best course of action?

​Thank you for any assistance you can offer. We are new to greyhounds, but have had dogs in the house for over 15 years now - a scruffy pointer of our own, and then fostering/providing respite care for anything from chihuahuas to rotties to bull terriers. So, not inexperienced with dogs, but this has my worried and a little flummoxed - the very different ways she behaves when she is on the leash, or at rest at home, versus when she gets excited.

[greysmom]

Everything you're describing is all relatively normal greyhound behavior, and things that you can work through. It *will* take work, however, and diligent supervision whenever she's around young kids.

 

You need to remember what these dogs have been bred and used for, and since I think I saw you're from New Zealand, there are differing attitudes and knowledge than from most of us here in the States. She's still a relatively young dog, and still in the prime of her life. She'll have less energy than your GSP, but will still need a good amount to become really tired. Getting her that exercise will be part of your challenge, as a tired dog will be easier to handle.

 

Many of us here won't take our greyhounds to dog parks for precisely the reasons you state. They often play very differently from other breeds, and can become aroused quite quickly depending on their innate level of prey drive (which is an individual trait). A more confident greyhound will quickly become a "chaser" and a dog park bully, while a less confident one will end up on the wrong end of another dog's teeth. With their thin skin, this often will mean an expensive vet trip. Most of us recommend to avoid dog parks unless you can arrange a time when they are alone or with a group of greyhounds/sighthounds so all the dogs will be muzzled. Unless every dog is muzzled, none of them should be, since you take away your muzzled dog's ability to defend itself against unmuzzled dogs.

 

Not getting her worked up at home is going to be a key. Your child (and visitors) should NOT be playing chase games or anything that you can identify that causes her to get too excited. If she does go over her threashold have toys and appropriate chewing items on hand and easily available so she can be re-directed to an activity that doesn't involve people. This behavior is very common when people return home, so having toys/chews near the door where you enter is a good idea.

 

A good positive reinforcement only trainer can help you work through her issues, but I can't stress the "positive reinforcement" aspect enough. Greyhounds don't respond well to correction-based training regimens. They are bred to be independent and to work by themselves so they aren't as naturally inclined to accept training as other dogs you may have had. Finding the right motivator is key. This can be a significant, yummy treat like chicken breast or cheese. Even a toy can be used if it's of sufficient value to your dog.

 

These two books by Patricia McConnell may also help you work through these issues:

"Feisty Fido - Help for the leash reactive dog"

"Play Together Stay Together"

[Guest MuttonHoney]

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I'll definitely check out the book recommendations.

No problems here avoiding dog parks. Our pointer hated dog parks, would just circle us and drool with anxiety, so it never became a habit for us or a social outlet for the humans or dogs in our family. We live near an extensive network of lovely wooded trails and are happy with our leashed walks - if the fenced park nearby is empty, I might muzzle her and let her have a run - probably post myself near the gate, so if anyone shows, I can ask them to wait a moment until I leash her up and leave.

Will definitely be vigilant with the kiddie playdates - no separation anxiety, so doubt it will be an issue to pop her in a bedroom for a nap while we have guests. My son is quite gentle with animals and seems quite aware of the excitability issue on his own. We were all at the park together, and it was he who suggested, on the ride home, that we don't play chase with Daisy anymore.

Still waiting on the rescue agency to call with a behaviourist recommendation, but completely agree on the positive reinforcement angle. Daisy shows no interest in toys of any sort, but she is still getting used to us - only been here 6 weeks - she is *very* food motivated though. Will keep treats on hand - good idea to have them by the door - thanks! Hopefully we can connect with someone locally, who really knows the breed and can provide some hands on guidance.

[greysmom]

When she does get excited, you can immediately turn away from her - pull your arms in and turn your back on her, and ignore her until she calms down enough to be re-directed. If she doesn't like toys, try a Nylabone, or other long-lasting chew she likes. You can also toss a few small treats on the floor. This is something your boy can learn to do too. he sounds like a wonderful, compassionate boy.

 

I also meant to say Congrats and Welcome to Greytalk!

[countrypaws]

I started to write a long response but something happened and I lost it. Suffice it to say that while we are not dog trainers, we take in hounds which bite people and which would otherwise be euthanized. We work with a lot of dogs. We test them and muzzle them and take nothing for granted. We have only failed to help one of the many biting dogs we took in.

 

Daisy is dangerous to you and your son and all his friends. He has bitten you and your husband ("closing her teeth" on you is a bite, especially if it causes bruising, though the effects are irrelevant. The bites will get worse.) She has attacked another dog (completely your fault for putting her in this situation in a dog park with a strange dog).

 

She is dangerous because 1) she is a bounce and you don't know her history; (they never tell you the full history, even if they know it); 2) she bites and attacks both people and dogs; 3) You have not yet trained yourself to become an astute dog observer and watch for patterns in this dog's behaviors. Many people just adopt perfect dogs and never have to acquire this skill. 4) you are relatively uninformed as an owner and have no idea as to how to handle this dog or what triggers these behaviors or how to stop them.

 

Eight year olds tend to be loud and energetic, so if these are triggers for a dog in your home, that's a big concern. You must muzzle this dog when she's around your son or other children. If she bites you because you don't know about her triggers, that's on you. But please protect your son and his friends while you're going through your learning curve.

 

The jury is out on whether this dog can fit into your household but I'd say right now the odds are against it. You need a lot of help to move forward while risking the safety of your child. Please be open to the fact that this girl may not be a good match for your family. And be totally honest with your adoption agency, should they contact you back. (They may know more than they are saying.) But please muzzle this dog when she's around kids. Biting dogs only get worse until something changes in their people, their behaviors and/or the dog's environment.

 

You don't want one of your son's friends to lose an eye because you ignored all these warning signs.

Larry

Edited February 7, 2017 by countrypaws

[Guest MuttonHoney]

Thank you, Larry.

Absolutely, we're at fault for putting her and the other dog in the situation by not just proactively having the muzzle on, even though she was the only dog when we arrived at the park. Definitely learned my lesson there. I doubt that we will ever let her off leash around other dogs again.

As unfortunate as it might be, to disrupt the adoption, I won't hesitate to do so if I feel my son, or any other children in Daisy's presence are in danger. My solution at the moment is to not leave them unattended together, and confining Daisy when we have young guests. At some point - after working with a skilled behaviourist - I hope we can have young friends over and perhaps Daisy will just need to be muzzled and not kept away. And while my son is quite gentle with animals, and has never known a house without a dog, I know I'd be fooling myself, if I expected him to always remember not to do anything that might get Daisy into"chase mode". His safety is paramount.

I agree that a biting dog will likely continue this behaviour unless something changes - and that is why I am on this forum seeking advice, also looking for an animal behaviourist in our area, as well as reaching out to the rescue organisation for their recommendations. While I am new to greyhounds, and this dog in particular, we cared for dogs for years and made every effort to understand their behaviours, cues, triggers, etc. I recognise that this is a dog who has poor bite inhibition when aroused. This is something I can control, to a point, by ensuring she gets adequate exercise on a leash, and doesn't have excessive energy to burn around the house. She gets two longer exercise walks daily, with a 20 minute jaunt around the block at mid-day and another before bed. My intention is to determine what we need to do, in order to work with her on this issue.

[countrypaws]

The exercise is a key component. Tired dogs are good dogs. That said, there are other underlying issues here, none of which a distant stranger like me could even speculate on. Just please muzzle her around children, even if you are present. These dogs are quicker than a rattlesnake when triggered and there's nothing you can do to intervene when there's close contact and an incipient bite. There's nothing wrong with seeking input but the dog is in your house now and people need to be kept safe. Just be judicious about protecting people in your home while you explore your options. I hope things can work out but please stay realistic while you limit the dangers.

Edited February 7, 2017 by countrypaws

[greysmom]

While "countrypaws" and I have many points of agreement, we are disagreeing about whether or not this dog is actually "aggressive." From your description of the events you are questioning, *I* would say Daisy isn't truly aggressive. None of what you described seems to be uncommon greyhound behavior, especially one who is hyped up and super aroused. Some dogs just have a lower trigger threshold than others.

 

Many dogs of all breeds simply can't deal with the stimulus of a dog park. And on GT you will routinely see people recommend that greyhound owners keep their dogs away from them. Many greyhounds get over excited in times of high stress and during play and they jump, bark, growl, use their chest to bump and knock you over, and air snap. It doesn't mean they're aggressive. Yes, reasonable precautions should be taken when she's around a young child - but in *my* opinion, those precautions should be taken around EVERY dog in a new home situation. She's only been with you a month, and that's not really a very long time for a dog to become accustomed to a new living situation. She's still learning and so are you and your family, so you have fun - cautiously.

 

We have a dog now who is very much like Daisy. She can't be trusted to play nicely with other dogs (of any breed) because she can trip over the edge in a heartbeat. And she's one who uses her teeth to express herself. In her first week with us she drew blood on both my husband and I (completely our fault) during sleep startling incidents. In addition, she has extremely poor bite inhibition, and what would be an air snap on a more controlled dog, connects with her. We have learned to deal with her personality and keep play times short, she and our other greyhounds are always (always) muzzled outside, and we actively work to calm her when we can see her getting excited by redirecting and using calming signals. When we acknowledge her shortcomings and manage her appropriately she is completely fine, and we haven't had any biting incidents with her since a few months after she came to live here. She now a feisty, spunky almost-twelve-year-old greyhound who we've had for 8 years.

 

BUT - Like Larry said, we are literally half a world away from you and not able to see her in person. A skilled behaviorist who can observe Daisy in your home will be much more able to advise you about how to move forward with her. We also have some really good people who are professional trainers on the Board, so hopefully they will chime in with their opinions. Please keep us informed!

 

Good luck!

[Guest MuttonHoney]

Greysmom,

I am inclined to agree. She has closed her mouth on me and my husband, but in what I would describe as a happy, exuberant moment.

I hate to give up on a dog. As I said in my initial post, 95% of the time she is just the sweetest, most chill dog I've ever spent time with. She also seems okay with my setting the tone when it comes to bouncing around the house. After that first snap that connected, I have turned away from her at times, withdrawn from play and she settles immediately. It seems easier to keep things in the house chill. I am here with her all day, and while we enjoy each other's company, I don't feel like I'm setting unnecessary limitations on her by not having the more active sort of play I have enjoyed with other dogs.

[Charlies_Dad]

I agree with Chris that I don't see her as "aggressive". The point about dog parks has already been discussed as they often lead to bad situations so avoidance is best. As for her excitement at home, the key is to de-escalate it so she does not become overly snappy. Dogs communicate via very few means unlike us humans and we need to take note of these. Greys are very unique as they were not raised like other dogs and that means some quirks. I hope your group is able to provide you with some guidance.

[BatterseaBrindl]

Like Chris (Greysmom) has said...we can't see Daisy and are only going by what you have told us.

Chris has given excellent advice. She usualy does!

I also agree with Chris and Kyle (CharliesDad) and do not think she is 'aggressive'.

Two of my hounds are air snappers and I have gotten in the way of their teeth more than once in the excitement of the moment. They are not agressive dogs...they are all certified Therapy Dogs. My two males have both been certified with children.

You sound like an experienced and caring family.

[GeorgeofNE]

No one should be taking a dog they've only had for a month to an off leash park.

 

I find it very hard to believe your adoption group didn't tell you that.

 

In any case, the simple solution is keep her gated in a room that children are NOT in if they are there.

[MaryJane]

I didn't see any indication of where she got you and your husband - was it by chance on the arm ? The reason that I ask that is that I have seen this behavior in greys where they will get excited and then they "grab" your arm. It is not usually done in aggression, rather more like playful fun. I inherited a dog like this that had made contact with their previous owner's arm. In my house, I refer to this boy as my gentle giraffe - it took time to work down his excitement and overabundant happiness and, I'm still careful in certain situations that would cause excitement. As others have said, just as long as you either muzzle or put the dog in a separate room when your child wants to run around or to have friends over, you may be able to control the behaviors - only time will tell.

 

The other situation is similar to the "prey" mode where they go from having fun and being playful to competitive and aggressive. This is one reason that when many greyhounds get together in a fenced in area to run around - they are ALL muzzled. It seems that you understood what was happening and moved to counter the aggression however, you also seemed to realize that it was too late to intervene as the incident unfolded. It's scary however, it is also a good lesson that you are unlikely to forget and thankfully, the other dog was not hurt so you can take that as a warning and adjust behaviors as you are already doing. I like that you are not making excuses and simply stating what happened and your part of it and because of that, I think that you might be able to handle any potential situations with your dog.

 

You didn't mention whether you have started training with your dog - I mean regular obedience classes. This helps with bonding and also you will be able to get a better idea of any other potential issues when you are in a class with other dogs and have more uncontrolled situations come up. I do want to warn you that if you do this, make sure that you do not off-leash your dog in class as most trainers will tell you to do that for the recall portion. I would probably suggest doing classes before bringing in a behaviorist as you really do not know the dog yet. In the interim, identify situations where you want to muzzle the dog or put in another room.

 

Good luck..

[ramonaghan]

I had the same thought as MaryJane when I first read your post re: playful vs. defensive biting. Read here under "Nitting" and see if that sounds like Daisy. Regardless, I would argue that she actually has decent bite inhibition in the sense that she's not drawing blood. That indicates that she is exercising some measure of control so as not to inflict real damage.

 

I would also agree that she doesn't sound truly aggressive. My own hound is the sweetest, most affectionate creature 95% of the time, but she can turn into Cujo with non-greyhound dogs or when startled from sleep. We work around her "quirks" and do what we can to set her up for success. We don't have children, so the risks are lower here, but I still think that with time and diligence (and perhaps some professional help) you can make it work with Daisy. Kudos for approaching this so rationally and being willing to put in the work!

[krissy]

Sounds like some playful nipping behaviour to me, though can't know for sure without seeing video of it.

 

I have been accidentally bitten by my dogs on numerous occasions. Re-gripping on tug toys and getting my hand instead, and over arousal mouthing/nipping. These are not hard bites, but they do still hurt and usually do bruise. I generally don't get the dogs over aroused without a tug toy ready. I don't mind if they gently mouth me, but if they nip they get a gentle reminder that that's not appropriate by stopping the game and being asked for a control behaviour (usually a down) for a few seconds before I restart the game. If you have children you may not wish to allow any mouthing behaviour since children are more delicate and also you don't want another parent misinterpreting your dog's behaviour and accusing her of biting. My dogs only exhibit mouthing behaviour with me so I allow it if it's gentle. Since this is a happy, playful behaviour just use ignoring and stopping play to reduce the behaviour. She'll learn that if she nips the fun stops. If you yell, or admonish her you'll simply take the joy out of playing with your family which isn't what you want. In the mean time, don't allow children to run around with her loose. Either have her on leash and with you, or put her away while the kids are being hooligans.

[countrypaws]

I see a few responses which talk about this dog not being "aggressive," in their opinion.

 

I usually tell people that if there's no blood or body parts, it's not aggression. The application of the term aggression is not my term or my concern here.

 

I focus on the danger that a biting dog presents to children or other animals. The owner does not talk at all about air snaps. The owner does not describe nitting behaviors. This is not "regripping on tug toys." Let's not minimize what's going on here. Let's not pretend that all greyhounds do these behaviors. They don't.

 

Instead the owner has talked about bites ("closing her teeth' on you) and "pinning" a dog on her back and being "at her throat." These are dangerous behaviors. The owner has also said that the dog is "aroused' by activity or excitement, even someone running in the house.

 

I have seen my own normally calm dogs be triggered by a squeal from another dog (with whom they have lived in harmony for years) and go after them ferociously in a clear attempt to kill that dog. Only our intervention stopped that attack. We saw years of calm behavior be triggered by primitive pack behavior to attack the weakest. I know of situations where two males have gone after each other at a Meet & Greet and had grown men punching the dogs in the head again and again but could not separate them. (Better technique is to slide your palm under the collar and twist, choking the offender.)

 

I love to see every dog adoption be successful. I root for new dogs to assimilate to their new homes. But we need to remember if a dog is sweet as pie 99% of the time, and bites people 1% of the time, you have a potentially dangerous dog and a liability nightmare. You need to protect those who can't protect themselves. I say this as a person who personally takes greyhounds into his home who bite people in the face and are scheduled for euthanasia. We work with the worst of the worst in terms of greyhound behavior, and so we just need to operate very careful as we help to make these dogs into success stories.

 

Because children are loud and active creatures, and completely unaware of dog training or dogs who are triggered to bite by activity, or the dangers of strepping on a tail or hugging aggressively, I strongly suggested in a previous post that this dog needs to be muzzled to prevent a potential tragedy. I would do this with a new dog even without this clear history of biting or going after another dog. I do it with all my new dogs.

 

I am glad that MuttonHoney is willing to take some responsibility here in seeking dog training and monitoring her dog's behavior, but it's critical to use a muzzle in any situation where a child or another animal could be at risk with an easily-aroused dog. These dogs have big teeth which can kill or injure in a heartbeat, and a muzzle will go a long way to protect everyone while you work through the issues.

 

I don't care if folks think this dog is aggressive or not; just please protect everyone in the meantime.

 

Larry

[Guest MuttonHoney]

Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions.

Our rescue org is putting their "greyhound expert" in touch with me. We are exercising as much caution as we deem necessary, especially until we get to meet with someone here who can observe us and our dog and discuss our situation in detail.

The "bites" to myself and my husband were on our forearms - they were not issued with a snarl, or from a startled dog, or a dog in pain. We were playing, the way we have played with countless other dogs, sort of a game of "chase". Daisy does air snap and chatter, and in both "human bite" instances, this was an exuberant dog and her new owners getting a bit carried away and not quite having set up boundaries. She snapped several times, and the last one closed on my arm. My response was to yelp and immediately turn away, and this was enough to alert *her* that something wasn't right. She knew immediately that I was no longer playing her game and she promptly stopped as well. If it had been aggressive bite, I don't think she would have just stopped the way she did. We now know that the sort of "chase" type games we may have enjoyed with other dogs are a no-go with Daisy - that is fine. There are so many other ways we can enjoy her company.

I do not feel like she is an aggressive dog. I feel like I have failed her, not to mention the other dog she attacked, and am willing to put in a great deal of work to make it right. I'm likely to always err on the side of caution when it comes to her and other dogs. And of course, in the meantime, we are being so, so careful with her and the kids.

[Guest Cilla]

Also my Max bites me when he's excited but I never thought he was aggressive to me. When I adopted him the adoption group explained me that this is a quite common behaviour in greyhounds; sometimes I got some bruises but if I don't want to get bitten I can ask him to calm down and avoid to play games that excite him.

 

I understand that having small children around her is not comforting but I believe that you can teach the kids how to play with her without bringing her to that point.

 

With Max for example I can play fetch, or do some nose work in the garden; sometimes I build some obstacoles and make an home made agility path, that he enjoys a lot.

 

If I begin to run in the garden I'll be surely bitten and I can bet I'll receive a nip in my arm or in my leg while I'm getting ready for our walk, but I've always considered it normal in having a greyhound. So if children are running around I'd keep her muzzled or separate her from kids.

 

Regarding aggression towards other dogs I understood that most Greyhounds are like that, I usually introduce mine to other dogs muzzled and then take it off when I'm pretty sure he's safe for the other dog. He gets on well with very calm and balanced dogs but I'm not an huge fan of dog parks because he would be very nasty with 90% of the others.

[Guest Amber]

Sounds like she gets over-aroused when playing ; with you and grabbing your arms, sounds more like 'mouthing' (ie no actual pressure, just holding your arm in her mouth). But this is not really typical of most ex racing greyhounds, I have seen this more with lurchers - greyhounds crossed with working breeds like collies and bullbreeds. Anyway, mouthing like that , even in play, is not desirable around children, especially if she does have a tendency to get over excited and lose self control.

 

Personally, I would be keeping her away from any visiting kids, at least until you know her better . Is there a crate , pen or outdoor kennel she can go in when kids visit? Once you trust her more and she has settled down, it may all change.

 

With the dog in the park - well it seems she switched from play drive to prey drive. I would think she has done this before, since you were warned to always muzzle her out on walks. I would stick to leash walks for now and not allow her to start running/chasing any other dogs, greyhounds or not, as letting her practice this behaviour will only reinforce it.

[krissy]

I see a few responses which talk about this dog not being "aggressive," in their opinion.

 

I usually tell people that if there's no blood or body parts, it's not aggression. The application of the term aggression is not my term or my concern here.

 

I focus on the danger that a biting dog presents to children or other animals. The owner does not talk at all about air snaps. The owner does not describe nitting behaviors. This is not "regripping on tug toys." Let's not minimize what's going on here. Let's not pretend that all greyhounds do these behaviors. They don't.

 

Instead the owner has talked about bites ("closing her teeth' on you) and "pinning" a dog on her back and being "at her throat." These are dangerous behaviors. The owner has also said that the dog is "aroused' by activity or excitement, even someone running in the house.

 

This is a very narrow, black and white view. By this definition, I have 2 dogs that bite in my household, which is a very skewed perception of reality. I said up front that without video no one knows what is truly happening, but there are lots of dogs out there that do put their mouths on people and it is not aggressive and they are not dangerous dogs. As I said, the behaviours I allow in my dogs would probably not be behaviours to allow with children in the household, but it still doesn't make my dogs aggressive or biters.

 

In my opinion, a dog isn't biting just because they put their mouths on someone or something. Mouthing is a very normal, play behaviour for the dog. And while this is not always appropriate for play between our two species, it does not mean that the dog is a danger or a problem. It is simply either a behaviour that you are, or are not, okay with. It's not the same thing as a defensive (or offensive) bite.

 

Also, pinning other dogs and grabbing them by the throat isn't normal play behaviour? Are you kidding me? Again, without video, we have no idea about this specific incident, but to suggest that it is an outright inappropriate behaviour is being just as naive as you are suggesting other people in this thread are being.

 

Kenna has been aggressively going for the throat since she was 10 weeks old:

 

Kili and her bestest buddy:

 

Summit demonstrating the aggressive "pin and go for the throat/head" move:

 

All of these photos are in the midst of happy play sessions in which both parties enjoyed themselves immensely and gave as good as they got. Can pinning a dog and biting at the throat be aggressive? Yes, of course. But it can also be a play behaviour. It's sometimes too rough for a smaller, timid dog so it's not always appropriate play but even if one side is intimidated by it that doesn't make it aggressive. It just means the bolder dog needs to be managed and controlled if they aren't getting the message. We don't have a video of the interaction so there's no way to know for sure which it is.

 

I'm not disagreeing that nipping behaviour is potentially inappropriate, but I definitely fault the idea that a playfully nipping dog is a danger. Or that just because a dog puts its teeth on a human that it is "biting". In this case if there are children around, then of course they need to work on the behaviour with a good, positive trainer, but nothing in this description would make me immediately concerned the dog is truly a biter without seeing video of the body language first. I think that's ultimately up to the trainer to determine if they elect to hire one.

Edited February 12, 2017 by krissy

[Guest Amber]

The incident with the golden sounds more like an attack of sorts since clumps of fur were pulled out and tbe victim was yelping and even bit its own tongue. Best case scenario it was bullying rough play; worse case if it had been a short haired breed there may have been injuries.

 

Rough play between dogs that know each other and both consent is fine but going after dogs in the dogpark is trouble.

[krissy]

The problem is there are two issues here. One is with humans and one with another dog, and they're unrelated. I originally was speaking mostly to the human nipping behaviour, I didn't really read much about the incident with the other dog. I'm just taking issue with the fact that the two were being lumped together when discussing the fact that this dog is "a biter", and the descriptor of "being at another dog's throat". Without a video we have no idea what the intention was of this dog. An over exuberant dog is completely different than a dog aggressive dog. Both problems need to be managed, yes, but in completely different ways. I have seen plenty of interactions which resulted in screaming that was not warranted (Kili has done this on more than one occasion when all the other dog did was try to sniff her politely but for whatever reason Kili felt cornered or threatened), and hair pulled out or even cuts/gashes between dogs that were playing happily. Kenna has already suffered one rip from playing with Kili, and there has been more than the odd yelp/scream when they interact. I have had more than one client tell me their dog or puppy is "aggressive" and then it turns out the two are happily playing rough and the owners think it is a full out dog fight and are trying to break them up. I've also seen perfectly friendly dogs that just don't really know how to play. Summit is very dog friendly, but I often had to stop him from actually playing with other dogs because he doesn't seem to have a clue how to do it properly, and he often scares other dogs which in turn scares the owners. There are lots of ways a dog can be read incorrectly by owners.

 

My point is the OP should be getting a good trainer to evaluate and help them decide what behaviours are problems to them, and how to work on them. They may or may not have any true problems, but "problem" is ultimately determined by each household. I don't mind mouthing behaviours, I don't mind if my dogs jump up on me. I hate leash pulling, I must be able to brush teeth and cut nails without a fuss. Must be crate trained. I hate pointless barking. I don't care for dog parks but I do care that my dogs are dog tolerant. So on and so forth.

[countrypaws]

Maybe this dog just accidentally bit its owner, causing a bruise. That's not nipping. And if it were nipping, if the dog is excited into these behaviors by activities like running in the house, and the house has young children, do you really want to risk a bite to a child whose face is just about mouth level to this dog?

 

Really?

 

It is water over the bridge to categorize a dog as aggressive or not aggressive or sweet. or inquisitive or happy. Who cares about what terms someone wants to apply to a dog, once a child loses an eye because the owner misjudges a situation, as is easy to do. MuttonHoney allowed her greyhound to go nose to nose with a strange dog at a dog park. No experienced greyhound owner would recommend that. Lawsuits result from that sort of unintended interaction every day.

 

My point is that one can get a trainer or not, or call the dog aggressive or call the dog normal, just doesn't matter. Arbitrary judgements are of no interest to me or to most trainers. Good safety practices are important.

 

I would not put a new greyhound unmuzzled with no biting history with small children. Most adoption groups won't even adopt to families with small children. This does not mean the specific dog is vicious or aggressive or sweet or mean. It means the adoption groups are smart enough to know that there's significant liability when you place a new greyhound with small children. Greyhound are used to hours alone in their crates, not the antics of loud, running little humans.

 

Get twelve dog trainers or fifteen opinions GT that this dog represents no danger at all to small children, that danger does not change. Compound that with any owner who takes chances with the potential situations in which their dog is placed unmuzzled, the risk of an issue or injury grows greater.

 

I have a couple well-behaved gentle greyhounds (and two who came to us due to a face bite) and I see no need to allow any of them unmuzzled with children. There are times I will not put my face near their mouth. Why would I even think of risking a bite or injury to a child? Why would I do that?

 

Arguments for trusting a greyhound like this without a muzzle with small children are what I would label as an inductive fallacy: a hundred successful interactions cannot prove a proponent correct, one nasty bite can prove him or her horribly wrong.

 

There is no upside to risking a relatively new greyhound -- even with no negative history -- with small children without a muzzle

 

No upside. No positive outcome. None. Zero. If the dog nips or bites an owner he knows well or gets a child-sized dog on it's back, even to play, the risk from that unmuzzled dog with a small, active child is even worse.

 

Please keep this greyhound muzzled around children, please. Stay safe.

Edited February 12, 2017 by countrypaws