Martingale Collars Full Fabric V. Half Chain

[Guest aceyouknow]

Hey Folks
So many Black Friday sales on Etsy! I've noticed a lot of sellers that offer martingale collars only offer the kind with the chain in the back, rather than full fabric martingales. The internet is failing me on determining if there's a real difference between the full fabric and half chain collars. I don't hate the look of the half chain as long as the fabric is wide enough, but I'm disinclined to go with it because I worry about pinching the neck skin and maybe pulling too tight. And it seems like the half chain collars are most often used as corrective collars on dobermans, bully breeds, shepherds etc. I've never seen a greyhound with the half chain, but have actually seen several other sighthounds that wear the half chain style. Thoughts?

[robinw]

I would think that the chain would be very uncomfortable.

[cleptogrey]

It all depends upon the dog. There is a faster response in the correction. The chain is behind the ears/neck so it should not be uncomfortable. I have used every variety of training collars except pinch/prong. They all have their place. Just make sure it fits and closes properly.

[Guest aceyouknow]

I'm not looking to use them for correction purposes, my boy is fine on leash. I just want to know if there's a specific reason greyhound owners don't seem to use them at the same frequency as full fabric martingales since they appear to have the same use. Are they not considered safe for hounds? And to be clear I'm not talking about full chain collars, just the ones that replace the back fabric loop with a bit of chain.

[3greytjoys]

Martingales made with fabric only are safer for the health of the dog.

 

I understand you don't want to use the martingale made with fabric and chain for training purposes, but I'd like to share this for other readers too. We've had two Greyhounds arrive with laryngeal paralysis, likely from previous collar/neck handling damage. (Paralyzed throat/larynx prevents dogs from breathing and eating normally. Throat paralysis progresses until it can eventually suffocate the dog to death from lack of oxygen, or dog can collapse suddenly during heavy exercise if paralyzed throat swells from excessively heavy panting.) I would very, very, very strongly discourage any use of metal chain materials that squeeze/choke the neck. The first thing veterinarians warn LP dog owners is to eliminate neck collars completely. Instead, it's safer to use a body harness (to prevent further damage to the throat and slow progression of throat paralysis). Greyhounds have extremely delicate and sensitive necks that should not be jerked or pulled (e.g. old training methods). Internal neck damage is often not seen immediately but worsens as the dog ages.

 

We happen to have about 50 fabric martingale collars, and occasionally still use them (very gingerly) on our other healthy hounds (without LP), but prefer harnesses just to be safe.

[Guest HoundWorks]

I also only use and make fabric martingales. The martingales are not meant for correction, but for those situations where you may have a spooked or excited hound who wants to back out of a collar. Our dogs don't pull when we walk them. They walk nicely on the lead, but they have spooked if we come across an unknown (bicycle, new people, loud noises). In those situations it's the added safety of the martingale which doesn't allow them to back out and slip loose. If you do have a puller, as 3greytjoys pointed out a harness would be the way to go.

 

I do sell martingales. All my martingales are made from a heavy canvas, so they are very durable if you do a lot of walking, running, hiking, water activities, etc. No harnesses at my shop, but I know other vendors on here sell some great harnesses.

[a_daerr]

I make collars with both, it just depends on the dog's behavior on leash. The half check chains on martingales are very nice for heavy pullers. It makes the collar more durable. With a fabric control loop, the continued friction of the fabric against metal when a dog is pulling heavily causes the fabric to twist and tear. There's nothing uncomfortable about the chains, by the way. Truman wears them from time to time.

 

ETA, a regular choke chain and a martingale with a half check chain are different, if I didn't make that clear. Here's a side by side- the chain only closes up to a certain point.

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by a_daerr

[3greytjoys]

Dogs can choke themselves much more easily with chain, whether the chain catches on something (cabinet knobs, furniture, things in yard, car, etc.) or dog's own toenail gets caught in the choke chain while scratching his/her neck, ears, head, shoulders. Dogs have caught their own teeth in the chain, not to mention a playmate getting caught up in the chain by the second dog's nails or teeth during play.

 

It would behoove business owners to have hefty liability insurance for selling these collars.

Edited November 28, 2016 by 3greytjoys

[GreyTzu]

There is nothing wrong with either collar, depending on the dog and the situation. A half-chain is fine in training or on leash.

 

Personally, I would NEVER leave a half-chain martingale or a full chain collar on any dog full time.

[a_daerr]

Personally, I would NEVER leave a half-chain martingale or a full chain collar on any dog full time.

 

Agreed. The same can be said for regular martingales too. One of my friend's greyhounds pulled the jump ring from her tags through a toe because she got it stuck while scratching her neck. Flukey things can happen at anytime with any type of collar.

[3greytjoys]

Chain collars, and other metal choke punishment-based collars are specifically against the adoption terms of our Greyhound groups' contracts.

[a_daerr]

I'm not gonna belabor the point, but a martingale with a half-check chain isn't a punishment collar. Maybe I didn't explain that correctly. They do not tighten up any more than a regular martingale. I've actually sold martingale-chain collars to greyhound adoption groups on wholesale (that's what they like to use for hounds right off the track who don't have leash manners yet). Maybe CollarTown or Dog Collars by Design or Dogs By the Bay can back me up if they see this.

[3greytjoys]

I understand the differences between full chain choke collars vs. martingales with part webbing and part chain. I can appreciate your point about the half chain tightening to the same measurement as a regular martingale. However, any length of steel chain plus extra D-rings increase risks to dogs. Steel chain is painful when tightened and can damage a Greyhound's delicate neck and/or throat, etc. (Even gentle thumb pressure on a human's throat can be very painful and surprisingly long-lasting. Greyhounds' sensitive necks are similar to humans.)

 

Per American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior:

“Choke chains can damage the trachea, especially in the many dogs with collapsing tracheas or hypoplastic tracheas.

They can also occasionally cause Horner’s syndrome (damage to the nerve to the eye).

Some dogs, especially brachycephalic breeds, have developed sudden life-threatening pulmonary edema,

possibly due to the sudden upper airway obstruction leading to a rapid swing in intrathoracic pressure.

And dogs prone to glaucoma may be more susceptible to the disorder since pressure by collars around the neck can increase intraocular pressure.”

Source: https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Punishment_Position_Statement-download_-_10-6-14.pdf

 

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Per Positively.com, Victoria Stillwell:

"Are choke collars safe?
Even if used without corrections, choke collars can still cause pain, discomfort, and injury to a dog’s neck, head and spinal cord.

• If you feel your dog’s neck with your hands followed by your own neck, you will see how similar they are.
• The trachea, esophagus, thyroid gland, lymph nodes, jugular vein, muscles and spinal column are all located in similar places.
• The only difference between a dog and a human neck is that under the fur, a dog’s skin layer is only 3-5 cells thick, while the top layer of human skin is denser, 10-15 cells thick.

What kind of injuries do choke collars cause?
The thyroid gland lies at the base of the neck just below the larynx close to where any collar sits. Just one yank can cause injury to a gland that controls many of the body’s vital functions.

• Studies show that the gland gets severely traumatized whenever a dog pulls on the leash and becomes inflamed.
• When this happens it is 'destroyed' by the body’s own immune system which tries to remove the inflamed thyroid cells.
• The destruction of these cells leads to hypothyroidism, which causes loss of energy, weight gain, skin problems, hair loss, ear infections and organ failure.

Choke collars also affect other areas of the body including the eyes.

• Another study reveals that when force is applied to the neck via a leash and a choke collar, pressure in the eyes is significantly increased.
• This type of pressure can cause serious injury to dogs already suffering thin corneas, glaucoma, or eye injuries.
• The same study was done with dogs that were wearing harnesses, which had no impact on eye pressure when force was applied."

Source: https://positively.com/dog-training/methods-equipment/training-equipment/choke-and-prong-collars/

 

I understand the importance of gentle use of fully soft-webbed martingale collars for sighthound breeds (whose head is smaller than their neck). When I work with new fosters from the track, I use a harness as primary guidance; plus a soft, fully-webbed martingale collar secondarily to prevent escape. It's worked well for hounds who acted like wild stallions to frightened spooks.

[Feisty49]

Question: I assume that the chain part of the half-chain collar is supposed to be centered in the middle of the back of the neck. Am I correct? Maybe even Martingale collars are supposed to be centered. Thing is, when I walk Annie - and she walks well - the D ring onto which I attach the leash doesn't stay in the back of the neck. It drops down to the side of her neck, so using a half-chain collar would mean the chain hangs in a tender place on her. Am I not reading this correctly or missing something entirely?

[Hubcitypam]

 

Agreed. The same can be said for regular martingales too. One of my friend's greyhounds pulled the jump ring from her tags through a toe because she got it stuck while scratching her neck. Flukey things can happen at anytime with any type of collar.

dogs have hung themselves on fences with fabric martingales and buckle collars. Remember the one that took a rest on the heat vent and his tags caught in i? He pulled the entire grate out of the floor.

[RedHead]

My dogs have gotten their tags in the heat vent too and ripped it right out of the floor (on a buckle collar)!

 

Honestly, I really don't think there is a big difference in chain vs. fabric in a martingale. Both do the exact same thing, and assuming you aren't leaving it on in the house unsupervised, you can go with either. I prefer fabric myself just for the look, but I have used chain martingales in the past with no problem. I wouldn't use a choke chain, but a little chain loop on a martingale is no different than fabric imho.

[Guest HoundWorks]

I'm not gonna belabor the point, but a martingale with a half-check chain isn't a punishment collar. Maybe I didn't explain that correctly. They do not tighten up any more than a regular martingale. I've actually sold martingale-chain collars to greyhound adoption groups on wholesale (that's what they like to use for hounds right off the track who don't have leash manners yet). Maybe CollarTown or Dog Collars by Design or Dogs By the Bay can back me up if they see this.

 

I definitely agree the functionality is the same. It's preference for me. I don't like the sound of the chain

 

As you said both are not meant for correction. The chains do hold up better than fabric loops is the best benefit. I don't see any issue with them as long as you take the same precautions you use with a fabric martingale which is never leaving it on the dog unattended. Your martingales are safest attached to a leash and a human holding the leash. I've mentioned before I let my whippet loose at my in-laws and I was there watching when he snagged his martingale collar (fabric) on the couch and he nearly choked himself panicking. I think if the same precautions are taken and you don't have a dog that's a real puller either style martingale is fine to use.

[3greytjoys]

Question: Thing is, when I walk Annie - and she walks well - the D ring onto which I attach the leash doesn't stay in the back of the neck. It drops down to the side of her neck, so using a half-chain collar would mean the chain hangs in a tender place on her. Am I not reading this correctly or missing something entirely?

 

Yes, you are correct. This is a primary reason having steel chain on martingales is not desirable. It's impossible to control how the collar rotates on the dog's neck at all times. The weight of the leash pulls the chain section downward towards the most delicate underside of the neck and throat. There is enough steel chain on the half chain/half fabric martingale to do permanent medical damage to the dog.

 

 

Although not mentioned previously, the other issue with the half/half pink martingale collar (pictured above): The two extra D-rings (attached to the chain link) inadvertently invites owners to accidentally latch the leash to the wrong ring (i.e., attach leash to a stationary ring vs, the collar's control D-ring). This greatly increases risks of hounds escaping by slipping out of the collar.

 

Agree with others that all martingales are meant for outings only. They should never be left on an unsupervised dog. That's why we recommend a separate flat I.D. collar to be worn 24/7 (without any built-in tag ring, and without any tags hanging off of the flat I.D. collar). Only exception is dog should not wear any collar while locked inside a dog crate.

Martingale (with tags attached to the side hardware only, not the control D-ring) can be "parked" while still attached to the leash after outings.

 

[Guest aceyouknow]

Thank you everyone! I had almost given up on getting a clear answer on the subject of functionality. For what it's worth, I also checked with my adoption coordinator, who said there's no requirement against them in our group and he knows a few people that use them. My boy never wears martingales indoors and walks extremely well on leash. I'm well aware of the problems with choke chains but imo, the full fabric martingale at the end of the day does the same thing. I really just wanted to be able to buy collars in fabrics that I like from sellers that didn't make the full fabric style and wanted to know if any other owners had any experience. Just yesterday we ran into a man walking his greyhounds with harnesses and the belt style tag collar rather than quick release. Accidents can happen to any dog under any number of circumstances and I think working within your own comfort level is best.

[GreyTzu]

Question: I assume that the chain part of the half-chain collar is supposed to be centered in the middle of the back of the neck. Am I correct? Maybe even Martingale collars are supposed to be centered. Thing is, when I walk Annie - and she walks well - the D ring onto which I attach the leash doesn't stay in the back of the neck. It drops down to the side of her neck, so using a half-chain collar would mean the chain hangs in a tender place on her. Am I not reading this correctly or missing something entirely?

 

All my full fabric martingale do the same thing when the leash is attached and the dog is walking nicely at my side. Not a big deal, in my opinion.

[3greytjoys]

Thought some folks might find the following 3 diagrams interesting:

This basic nerve diagram illustrates nerves in the neck and throughout the body.

(Head shown on second diagram; arteries on third diagram.)

To enlarge: press ctrl and + key

To reduce: ctrl and - key

 

Nervous System of Dog

Source: http://www.merckvetmanual.com/pethealth/dog_disorders_and_diseases/brain_spinal_cord_and_nerve_disorders_of_dogs/parts_of_the_nervous_system_in_dogs.html

 

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Superficial Nerves of Head

 

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Arteries

Source: http://vanat.cvm.umn.edu/carnLabs/Lab25/Lab25.html

 

 

As we can imagine, squeezing (or jerking) any length of metal chain on a dog’s neck risks internal damage.

More risky for our thin skinned Greyhound breed who lacks fat, thick fur or undercoat.

 

My understanding is the vagus nerve is the longest nerve in the body, and connects the brain with all internal organs.

Neck/throat nerve damage can eventually extend through the body through the vagus nerve, spinal cord, etc.

 

One of our hounds died from complications stemmed from prior collar injuries that caused laryngeal paralysis, which later extended into nerve body paralysis. Sadly, another one of our hounds who arrived into retirement with LP will likely follow a similar path. Having lived with the daily struggles of our hounds’ diagnosis, in addition to five decades of personal multi-faceted canine experience, I agree with veterinarians, and other professionals who consider metal chain collars dangerous. I agree that full choke chains are much worse, but limited choke chains are risky too. (BTW, unfortunately, laryngeal paralysis and other chain-related neck injuries are very common in AKC show dogs.) Thankfully, fully webbed nylon martingales were invented as an improved soft collar option for gentle use on sighthounds.

[Yamaha_gurl]

Chain D-ring loop: Ultra-strong, ultra durable, more suited for bully breeds. OR for greyhound owners who know to only use a martingale for walks, and know how to adjust. Also, a 1" chain loop will cinch up must faster than a 2" fabric collar. Think about it, more surface area to go through the tri-glide.

Fabric D-ring loop: More suited for dainty dogs, like whippets and greyhounds.

 

All in all, I prefer the fabric loops for sight hounds and chain loop martingales for bully breeds.

 

A note: When doing your shopping, PLEASE look at how long/amount of sales vs reviews the shop has. There are some very frightening new collar shops on etsy, with extremely inadequate thread and stitching technique.

[Guest rferguson]

Are we over-thinking this issue?

 

I use a half chain Martingale 24/7. Walks with the all fabric Martingale were a tug-athon. The chain gives my boy the audible hint to back down**, and karma resumes. The all fabric didn't do that.

 

Also, with the half-chain, I can give my boy the quick left or right turn tickle, he turns in that direction and all is well.

 

Can we all agree that the collar choice is dependent on the dog personality.. as well as the walker?

 

 

** unless there was a small furry creature sighting, in which case hang on!

[GreyTzu]

Yup, overthinking it.

 

If the half-chain works well for you and you ARE NOT leaving it on when the dog is unattended, go for it.

[Batmom]

For a martingale, there isn't any significant difference to the dog between a fabric loop and a chain loop. When the martingale tightens, what's against the dog's neck is a couple of D-rings, O-rings, or slides and ... the other (fabric) part of the collar.

 

Don't leave either on the dog unattended. They are both (limited) choke collars.