Update: They Are Inseparable. Try Separating?

[PatricksMom]

Geez, I'm talking about being able to take one to the vet or a walk (Xavi loves going for walks, Iker hates them) without worrying about my neighbour complaining about the other howling, not keeping them in separate houses

This, Leo wasn't traumatized (that we know) but he is extremely anxious and does not do well left without Henry, and sometimes you do have to take one dog to the vet. Imo, it's better to gently prepare them than to have to deal with one freaked out dog while you're also dealing with a medical emergency in the other.

[NeylasMom]

 

What is proposed here is to take away the buddy and in effect, bringing the fear situation back.

The whole point of Robin starting this thread was in effect to ask if it was possible to start working toward them being separated for short periods of time without causing either dog fear or trauma. She can do this by starting with very very short periods and taking steps to make those short periods very positive for both dogs (someone else home to give attention to one while Robin takes the other, she could use food toys, etc.) as discussed. If she can't have someone home with the second dog, she can easily set up a webcam with live streaming to watch the dog that is left behind so that she can end things immediately if it looks like either dog is getting stressed. She's not going to traumatize either dog or cause a major setback just by trying this.

 

Robin, my major gauge if you do try this is whether both dogs will continue to take food. If it were me, I would have an awesome stuffed kong prepared wtih the best foods and frozen for the dog being left home (assuming you use kongs already and the dogs are good at working on them). I would give him that and take the other out for a short walk just in the neighborhood, probably just on my own block to start, feeding really high value treats (think people food) with a high frequency while out. If either dog stopped taking food (I use ustream and my built in webcam on my laptop to watch my dogs when I leave - it's free) I would stop immediately and go home.

 

First time out, I might just go around the block and then back inside. Trade immediately (one of those high value treats) to get the kong back as the point is that the kong is associated with you leaving with the other dog and stick it back in the freezer until you try again. I would do that short of an outing multiple times before I increased at all.

Edited December 10, 2014 by NeylasMom

[turbotaina]

 

The situation with this dog is is sightly different - Iker is usually fearful and has only found some relief in having a buddy. With the horse, it appears that it is usually in a calm state but, was agitated with the transport. What is proposed here is to take away the buddy and in effect, bringing the fear situation back. While I think this could eventually be worked out in a few years, I think it is too soon and that is just my opinion.

 

Maybe using an example would better describe how I feel about this - (hypothetically) I have a dog that I rescued from a starvation situation and as a result, the dog is always ravenous. This is a concern because it could unintentionally attack while trying to get at food. So, do I limit food so that the dog gets used to not having food and therefore, will not be ravenous anymore. That really does not make sense to me -- maybe it does to others though. In a case like this, I would probably overfeed the dog to try and over compensate for it's need to have food. I see the situation with Iker as him building trust with a fellow pack animal and having achieved a state of relief and maybe calmness. This feeling of ease/safeness is not a feeling that he has had for a long time .. if I remember, it is less than 1 year (could be wrong though) that Xari has been in the picture. The trust he has built up is fragile ... it might not be able to be regained again easily if it is lost.

 

When you deal with a damaged dog ... it is not what you think they should be able to do (or what others think) ... it is what they are capable of ...

 

Maybe the best suggestion is to check with some of the shelters in Spain and get their opinions on what they would do in this case - they have so much experience with the trauma that galgos go through and what works and what doesn't.

No, my example was perfectly applicable here: you don't wait for an emergency to suddenly test the waters. It's much less stressful on both dogs if conditioning/training has been done ahead of time. Edited December 11, 2014 by turbotaina

[Guest jetska]

Let's try something new. Rather than thinking of my dogs as perpetual victims, why don't we try thinking of them as the tough survivors that they've proven themselves to be? If I didn't look at them that way, I would never have them leave the safety of my bed.

 

For what it's worth, it's not Iker that I'm worried about. He survived fine for the year between Treasure's death and Xavi's adoption. I'm more concerned about Xavi. On the surface it may appear that Iker is the more fearful one, but in some ways it's Xavi.

 

Yes, a very experienced greyhound rescuer once said to me 'the worst thing you can do for a dog is feel sorry for it'.

[duncan41]

We adopted a bonded pair of litter sisters. Our concerns were the same as yours because one was the benevolent alpha and the other her faithful follower. We ended up taking them to obedience together and when the follower showed some confidence, they were separated into different classes. I believe the class atmosphere provided enough distraction so that "alone" wasn't really alone.

[robinw]

Thanks for the webcam advice Jen. That is a good idea. I signed up for ustream last night. Linda, obedience is a good idea, too.

[XTRAWLD]

Take em for a walk! See how they do....why not?

 

I can tell you that my boys enjoy individual walks now and again. One doesn't have to pause for the other when they do their thing.....I can also jog a bit with them that way....more difficult with two. I walk them separate once a week, sometimes more often. I think they enjoy it now and again, and perhaps look forward to it! I wouldn't say my boys are inseparable though, however I think it can at least create a little brain activity - for better or worse, I'm unsure.

Edited December 11, 2014 by XTRAWLD

[cleptogrey]

dogs live in the moment,so i've been told. so, try it....if the response is negative then don't try it again.

 

i take both in the car up to the vet if no one is home, take one in and listen to the other dog sing. they survive, when dh is home he keeps the other dog w/ him in the studio. it's one unhappy camper, but it's just for the time being. i do know that annie really needs to have another dog around- but felix can easily be replaced. as long as it's another greyhound. felix- if the other dog is gone- give him a human, he was bottle fed as a wee pup. both of mine feed off of each other- can't live with or without each other. if something happens, i'll figure it out.

 

obedience training does build a better bond between you and the pup, try it, the two of you just might like it. some dogs are just more independent & leaders, it's the same pecking order as a wolf pac.

[NeylasMom]

Thanks for the webcam advice Jen. That is a good idea. I signed up for ustream last night. Linda, obedience is a good idea, too.

Cool, glad I could help. The mobile app isn't perfect, but works well enough for me to keep an eye out and at work I can stream it live on my computer.

 

Re: class - I think it's a good idea, but unless you already have a place you're very comfortable with, really do your research, including going and observing a class ahead of time. I would look for a place that has a small class size and provides a quiet, calm environment. I've taken my share of classes and while almost all have been with good instructors, the suitability of the class for a very nervous dog varied a lot. And of course make sure the instructor is more focused on providing a safe environment for your dog over just getting behavior. The very first class I went to with Neyla had touted their use of positive reinforcement (I had called ahead to ask about their methods). We got there, Neyla was overwhelmed and froze up during the loose leash walking exercise and the instructor told me to leash pop her. We walked out, got our money back and never looked back. That's how I found Coventry, the school I work at now. Anyway, point being, as much as I get on my high horse about training methods, it's really critical to find a good instructor with dogs like yours who have been traumatized in the past and remember that it's really not so much about teaching the behaviors, but just getting them the exposure in a controlled environment and building the bond between you and each of them.

[robinw]

Actually, I tried taking Iker to series of classes once but he was really scared. I think it's too soon and he may never be able to go. I took Xavi separately; it was great socialization for him but he was also scared. When I mentioned that I might try it, that would be only if I could find somebody else to come so they could be in the same class. The trainer that Xavi had was great and Iker loves her (they met over the weekend). Early in the year she is going to start drop in fun sessions, with and without owners. Maybe in the future I could try something like that, but probably not yet, if ever.

[Batmom]

Wish you had a nosework class like ours nearby. Awesome for dogs who are easily overwhelmed.

[JJNg]

Coming in a bit late to this, and have just scanned through the other replies, but why start with a walk around the block? That may be too much. How do they do in separate rooms of the house? Are they so inseparable that they are *always* together, or do they voluntarily hang out in separate rooms sometimes? Can you feed one in one room with the door closed or baby-gated, while you do some obedience exercises with the other, and then swap out?

 

If they're already fine separated within the home, you could start with just walking one out the door, maybe around the yard, and come right back. But if they aren't comfortable even being separated inside the house, that's where you need to start. I'm assuming you live alone since you mentioned a webcam to monitor the one left behind. So no one to stay and watch and distract the other dog?

[robinw]

Yes, I do live alone. Just this past week Iker has been sleeping alone downstairs while Xavi continues to sleep upstairs. This seems like a big step to me. I like the idea of taking separate walks in tiny steps, like across the street to start, etc.

[JJNg]

It's just like "alone training", but I suspect a lot of people probably start too fast. The goal of desensitization is to never go faster than what the dog can handle, so the dog should never be stressed during the process. So the initial step may simply to step out the door and immediately return. The early steps may involve building up the time increments in seconds, not minutes. If no one will be home with the dog left behind, I'd try to find something that will keep him busy, like a stuffed kong or some other treat that takes time to consume.

[DofSweetPotatos]

Robin, I applaud you for starting this. Iker will do great, as you've gotten him so far in just a short time.

Does Iker get upset when you leash up Xavi for a walk without leasing Iker? I think I'd start there if it doesn't confuse Xavi. Leash unleash rinse repeat and move forward.

good luck!

[robinw]

thanks all for your suggestions. We started with baby steps and are now taking short, separate walks. I am so proud of them, especially Xavi, who was my main concern.

Edited January 11, 2015 by robinw

[inugrey]

I had no suggestions so I stayed quiet. Glad you're having success.

[NeylasMom]

thanks all for your suggestions. We started with baby steps and are now taking short, separate walks. I am so proud of them, especially Xavi, who was my main concern.

That is awesome!

[Batmom]

Good job, Robin & boys!

[turbotaina]

Well done, Robin!