Poop, Poop, And More Poop!

[Guest Zizi]

Hmmmm. I've been giving him boiled ground beef and white rice for his bland diet. If he has a beef intolorance, than that could be the reason we're not seeing an improvement. I can't remember whether I had started him out on chicken and rice the first time and then switched to beef or vise versa--DANG, I really should journal these things! What the heck, I think I'll try chicken or turkey and rice and cut out the Forti-Flora to see if there's an improvement.

 

Thanks for mentioning this! Sometimes it takes a newbie to see something that others overlook. I'm a newbie too, but apparently too dense to figure that out! LOL! Gee, I hope it's only a beef intolorance!

With my other pups I have always given chicken and rice when they needed to be on a bland diet. To much fat in beef for them and lord knows I could not afford the real good hamburg with less fat. So chicken and rice it is here! As of now are the worms gone? I know it can be a false neg.

[a_daerr]

AngelPup, just wanted to point out that JJng is a vet. I consider her the 'Great and Powerful Oz' of this board.

[Guest AngelPup]

I'm not understanding the resistance to try Drontal Plus either, and I also don't believe it's any less safe than Panacur. Most of the standard dewormers are very safe medications. I'm also wondering if your vet is addressing the finding of whipworms? Are they discounting what they saw on the in-house fecal because the lab didn't find any eggs in the sample that was sent out? Whipworms eggs are very distinct, and if they saw them on the fecal, they were there. The only worm egg that is occasionally confused with whipworms is Capillaria, which is a lungworm, but they're different enough that it's not hard to tell them apart if you know what you're looking for.

 

And yes, Giardia testing can be done on a fecal sample, so there should be no need to sedate him for a rectal exam. I hope Brady continues to improve and that you get things figured out soon. I'd be thinking about getting a 2nd opinion from a different vet....

 

Yeah, I'm definitely going to insist on trying Drontal Plus. I can't imagine it would make things worse and might very well help get rid of these things! I just want to give it a week (and try switching the beef to chicken or turkey in his bland diet) to see if there is any improvement first.

 

As for the whipworm-type eggs they found in his stool, I asked about that and was told that what they saw was similar to whipworm, but much smaller. They couldn't identify what it was, since it didn't look like anything they compared it to (I think she said she has a book or chart they use to identify the different type of eggs). So she wasn't sure whether it was a specific type of whipworm or not. Since we've been giving Brady Panacur every two to three weeks since the middle of May, and that's the standard treatment for whipworms, she was hoping the lab would find some and be able to identify it for her. Since she's not sure what it is, she's not sure what to use to treat it.

 

I don't know much at all about lungworm... they shed eggs through the intestines as well? Would they cause diarrhea? Good grief. I've never hated parasites more than I do now!! How are lungworms treated?! I'll put lungworms on my list of things to discuss with the vet.

 

Thanks for your feedback! I really want to be sure I'm covering all basis there.

[Guest AngelPup]

With my other pups I have always given chicken and rice when they needed to be on a bland diet. To much fat in beef for them and lord knows I could not afford the real good hamburg with less fat. So chicken and rice it is here! As of now are the worms gone? I know it can be a false neg.

 

I've been boiling ground chuck, which is less expensive than ground turkey and chicken--at least around here--and then draining it so most of the fat is drained out of it. I'm definitely curious as to whether the beef is irritating his gut, so I'll be trying chicken or turkey.

 

I have no idea whether the worms are gone or not. When we were first treating him, it would appear that the diarrhea would improve a bit, but then a week or two later get worse. So I could tell he was reinfested. But lately it's just been consistently gross. The last time I saw a perfect poop was when he was almost completely on the 4Health salmon and potato and started another round of Flagyl. It was around the same time that the vet wanted me to continue with the bland diet... then his poops got much worse. I'm hoping it's just the beef.

[Guest Zizi]

I've been boiling ground chuck, which is less expensive than ground turkey and chicken--at least around here--and then draining it so most of the fat is drained out of it. I'm definitely curious as to whether the beef is irritating his gut, so I'll be trying chicken or turkey.

 

I have no idea whether the worms are gone or not. When we were first treating him, it would appear that the diarrhea would improve a bit, but then a week or two later get worse. So I could tell he was reinfested. But lately it's just been consistently gross. The last time I saw a perfect poop was when he was almost completely on the 4Health salmon and potato and started another round of Flagyl. It was around the same time that the vet wanted me to continue with the bland diet... then his poops got much worse. I'm hoping it's just the beef.

Gosh it would be great if it was just the beef, keep me posted on how he does if you do change to chicken or turkey.

All paws crossed here.

[Guest AngelPup]

AngelPup, just wanted to point out that JJng is a vet. I consider her the 'Great and Powerful Oz' of this board.

 

Oh, good to know! Thanks for pointing that out. She did sound very knowledgeable to me!

[JJNg]

I don't know much at all about lungworm... they shed eggs through the intestines as well? Would they cause diarrhea? Good grief. I've never hated parasites more than I do now!! How are lungworms treated?! I'll put lungworms on my list of things to discuss with the vet.

 

Lungworms don't cause diarrhea, but the worms are shed in the stool. They usually cause coughing and other respiratory signs. Lungworms are very uncommon, so it's unlikely he has them. Hopefully, it's just the beef, and you get things under control quickly.

[Guest AngelPup]

Gosh it would be great if it was just the beef, keep me posted on how he does if you do change to chicken or turkey.

All paws crossed here.

 

You ain't KIDDIN!! I'm really hoping it's just the beef. I made another batch of the bland diet tonight using ground turkey (cheaper than chicken), and I'll start feeding him that tomorrow morning with what's left over from the last batch (only about a cup). Oh please oh please oh please let it just be the beef!!!!!!

 

Lungworms don't cause diarrhea, but the worms are shed in the stool. They usually cause coughing and other respiratory signs. Lungworms are very uncommon, so it's unlikely he has them. Hopefully, it's just the beef, and you get things under control quickly.

 

Thanks! I did do some research on lungworms after you mentioned it and he doesn't have the symptoms--thankfully! I don't think I could handle another worm diagnosis!

[Guest AngelPup]

I'm SO very frustrated. Brady had a couple decent, not great, but better stools a couple days ago (mostly formed, darker, but still slimy looking). Unfortunately, they are now getting mushy and gross again. Last night and especially tonight, they were very runny, lighter, and I noticed that there are many tiny, white specks in his poop. Some look like grains of rice (uncooked), but they are not moving. I've seen that in his stool before, but am not sure what the heck it is. I've seen tapeworm in a stool before and it doesn't look like them. Besides, the vet gave him Droncit on Monday, so I doubt he has tapeworms. I guess it could be the rice in his bland diet, but I cooked the heck out of it and put a ton of water in it, so if anything, the rice is overly MUSHY.

 

The only things I changed was to discontinue using the FortiFlora, swapped ground beef for turkey, and have been adding a ton of water to his meal because he's not drinking as much as he should and the vet though he was dehydrated (definitely not anymore!). Oh, yeah, I forgot that I added another cup of the bland diet at breakfast and dinner because he lost four pounds the last time I took him to the vet.

 

I'm not sure whether I should take another stool sample (if the white specks are still showing up) in the morning or wait to speak with the vet next week... I'm guessing the reason she wanted to take a swab from an anal exam was to get as fresh a sample as possible to test for Giardia, but I could potentially bring a fresh sample tomorrow morning if Brady cooperates... UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I guess I'll call first thing tomorrow to see what they can do and if they think it would be worth bringing in yet another stool sample...

 

Oh, and I found this very informative (TOO informative) website--everything you never wanted to know about parasites. http://www.capcvet.org/

[Batmom]

The specks are probably uncooked or at least undigested rice. Since you added extra water (good person! ) , it could be the rice just doesn't agree with him and moved through his system too fast. Some dogs don't do well on rice and will never have firm stools while eating it.

 

I usually don't do the bland diet unless dog is having frequent/uncontrollable/bloody stool. I just stick with the dog's normal diet.

 

To maintain weight for a greyhound-sized dog, you'll need to feed @ 1.5+ cups cooked rice and @ 1+ cup cooked meat twice a day. Rice is pretty low in calories, and so is most poultry.

[tbhounds]

Please consider feeding w/d or at least use canned w/d as an add in to what you are feeding-I promise it WILL firm up,his stools immediately.

[Guest Zizi]

Please consider feeding w/d or at least use canned w/d as an add in to what you are feeding-I promise it WILL firm up,his stools immediately.

What is w/d?

I'm SO very frustrated. Brady had a couple decent, not great, but better stools a couple days ago (mostly formed, darker, but still slimy looking). Unfortunately, they are now getting mushy and gross again. Last night and especially tonight, they were very runny, lighter, and I noticed that there are many tiny, white specks in his poop. Some look like grains of rice (uncooked), but they are not moving. I've seen that in his stool before, but am not sure what the heck it is. I've seen tapeworm in a stool before and it doesn't look like them. Besides, the vet gave him Droncit on Monday, so I doubt he has tapeworms. I guess it could be the rice in his bland diet, but I cooked the heck out of it and put a ton of water in it, so if anything, the rice is overly MUSHY.

 

The only things I changed was to discontinue using the FortiFlora, swapped ground beef for turkey, and have been adding a ton of water to his meal because he's not drinking as much as he should and the vet though he was dehydrated (definitely not anymore!). Oh, yeah, I forgot that I added another cup of the bland diet at breakfast and dinner because he lost four pounds the last time I took him to

 

the vet.

 

I'm not sure whether I should take another stool sample (if the white specks are still showing up) in the morning or wait to speak with the vet next week... I'm guessing the reason she wanted to take a swab from an anal exam was to get as fresh a sample as possible to test for Giardia, but I could potentially bring a fresh sample tomorrow morning if Brady cooperates... UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Gosh this poor boy!

 

I guess I'll call first thing tomorrow to see what they can do and if they think it would be worth bringing in yet another stool sample...

 

Oh, and I found this very informative (TOO informative) website--everything you never wanted to know about parasites. http://www.capcvet.org/

[Guest chardae]

Zizi,

 

W/D is prescription dog food made by Hill's....specifically for GI upsets, diabetes, etc. It's low fat and high in fiber. When my 14 year old Italian Greyhound had a liver crisis, he was put on it long term and did well.....lived another 4 years with no liver/GI problems. Personally, I probably wouldn't keep an otherwise healthy dog on it long term, but it can be helpful with bouts of diarrhea/upset tummies.

[Guest Zizi]

Zizi,W/D is prescription dog food made by Hill's....specifically for GI upsets, diabetes, etc. It's low fat and high in fiber. When my 14 year old Italian Greyhound had a liver crisis, he was put on it long term and did well.....lived another 4 years with no liver/GI problems. Personally, I probably wouldn't keep an otherwise healthy dog on it long term, but it can be helpful with bouts of diarrhea/upset tummies.

Thank you!

[Guest FreeholdHound]

Good Lord you two have been thru so much! In past when I've done a bland diet I use Elbow Macaroni in lieu of rice. For Harry it works better. I also have added Non flavored Pedialyte (usually found in baby formula aisle) in w/ the broth. Turns out Harry has intolerance to chicken & turkey which took a while for me to figure out.

[Guest AngelPup]

The specks are probably uncooked or at least undigested rice. Since you added extra water (good person! ) , it could be the rice just doesn't agree with him and moved through his system too fast. Some dogs don't do well on rice and will never have firm stools while eating it.

 

I usually don't do the bland diet unless dog is having frequent/uncontrollable/bloody stool. I just stick with the dog's normal diet.

 

To maintain weight for a greyhound-sized dog, you'll need to feed @ 1.5+ cups cooked rice and @ 1+ cup cooked meat twice a day. Rice is pretty low in calories, and so is most poultry.

 

Thanks for the info. I'm thinking it's undigested rice and he's again having a hard time digesting his food properly. There really does seem to be a cycle going on here... Every time I treat w/Panacur he improves a bit (stools improve--not great, but improve; he's more active/playful, and doesn't eat grass or throw up. In the beginning his 'feeling better period" was longer--maybe lasted a week, but recently and especially this last time, it's very brief (two to three days). It seems as though the cycle is speeding up for some reason. The Flagyl improved things dramatically two out of three times, but that doesn't last more than a day or two. The only thing the bland diet did was to minimize the number and size of his poops (he's been going two to three times a day instead of four to six times a day). Never saw any improvement with FortiFlora.

 

The next time I make a batch of bland diet, I'll try something else instead rice. Apparently switching from beef to turkey didn't make any difference. When I was feeding him the Diamond Naturals Chicken and Rice he was having a TON of large stools per day, and there IS a lot of rice in that food. I guess the rice could be exacerbating things. ?!

 

Any suggestions on what to swap the rice with?

 

He seems to be gaining weight, so I think I'm feeding him enough now.

[Guest AngelPup]

What is w/d?

 

 

I was going to ask the same thing.

Zizi,

 

W/D is prescription dog food made by Hill's....specifically for GI upsets, diabetes, etc. It's low fat and high in fiber. When my 14 year old Italian Greyhound had a liver crisis, he was put on it long term and did well.....lived another 4 years with no liver/GI problems. Personally, I probably wouldn't keep an otherwise healthy dog on it long term, but it can be helpful with bouts of diarrhea/upset tummies.

 

Thanks for the suggestion! Is that something I need to get from the vet?

Good Lord you two have been thru so much! In past when I've done a bland diet I use Elbow Macaroni in lieu of rice. For Harry it works better. I also have added Non flavored Pedialyte (usually found in baby formula aisle) in w/ the broth. Turns out Harry has intolerance to chicken & turkey which took a while for me to figure out.

 

Elbow macaroni works for me--we have a TON of it on hand! It's certainly worth a shot--I've tried everything else.

[Guest AngelPup]

OK, here's an update. Brady had a very large and very soft (looked like someone spilled a butterscotch milkshake) stool this morning with more white flecks scattered here and there. When my daughter took him out for the first time this morning, she said he ate a ton of grass (which he does when his stomach is bothering him). I called the vet's office to see if I could speak with the vet (she wasn't in) about having the stool tested in-house for Giardia, worms, and that other parasite she wants to check for. It's Chrypto/Krypto somethingorother BTW, which they can't detect in-house. She said I could bring a stool sample in for them to send to a lab, but it would cost almost $200. :::sigh:::

 

She said it was probably too soon for eggs to show up in the stool, since we just treated w/Panacur and the fecal came back negative on Monday. The vet wants to check that in another week. I also discussed getting a second opinion and she was very nice about it--said that was perfectly fine and a new vet would either find something they missed or confirm everything.

 

I called and made an appointment with a vet that was recommended by a local greyhound owner. Unfortunately, she's apparently VERY busy and I couldn't get Brady in until the 18th. They put us on the cancelation list, so hopefully we can get in earlier.

 

So I guess I'll just keep doing what I'm doing (bland diet & Flagyl) and call the vet Monday to fill her in. Maybe I'll be able to convince her to let us try the Drontal Plus before moving on to the expensive testing she is recommending (3rd time is a charm, right?!). Otherwise, I'll just have to wait to discuss this with the 2nd vet.

 

Oh, and BTW, my daughter and I noticed that Brady was licking his butt a lot after our appointment with the vet on Monday. He had beend doing this all week. I guess it could have been irritation from his anal glands, but I have noticed that behavior before in dogs with worms. He doesn't seem to be doing this as much today though. UGH!

[Guest chardae]

Angel pup,

 

Yes, you would need to get the W/D from a vet.

 

I've had to pay my vet over $200 for fecal tests through Texas A & M University. They are the gold standard for advanced testing.....been there, done that for three of my greys!

 

Wishing the best for Brady....

[Guest OPointyDog]

Potatoes are a good substitute for rice. I know some people also use oatmeal. Pasta is also something else to try. We also used pureed baby food that was all meat sometimes.

 

Sorry you're going through this but I know your pain! We had almost 3 months of bright yellow runny poop trying to find something that would work and getting blood samples and stool samples run, then deworming and not seeing much improvement. Our poor guy lost 10 lbs. What finally worked for us was boiled hamburger and mushy rice for 2 weeks, and then a slow switch (over a month) to Purina DCO and tylan powder. Purina DCO sounds a lot like Hills W/D - low fat and high fiber. Now he's doing great and has put the weight back on. I think after diarrhea for so long, you have to get the gut calmed down, and then find a food they can handle. I was afraid for awhile I was going to have to make him boiled hamburger and rice for the rest of his life!

 

Our guy also had a B12 deficiency and had to have shots. Has he been tested for that?

 

Every dog is different - good luck and keep asking questions! Best wishes for Brady!

Edited July 7, 2013 by OPointyDog

[Guest AngelPup]

Angel pup,

 

Yes, you would need to get the W/D from a vet.

 

I've had to pay my vet over $200 for fecal tests through Texas A & M University. They are the gold standard for advanced testing.....been there, done that for three of my greys!

 

Wishing the best for Brady....

 

Thank you very much! Yeah, I think she said something about sending the fecal sample to Texas, but that was to test for some enzyme deficiency. Could be the same lab though. If I have to do this, I will. I would just feel better with a second opinion and/or trying Drontal Plus first.

[Guest AngelPup]

Potatoes are a good substitute for rice. I know some people also use oatmeal. Pasta is also something else to try. We also used pureed baby food that was all meat sometimes.

 

Sorry you're going through this but I know your pain! We had almost 3 months of bright yellow runny poop trying to find something that would work and getting blood samples and stool samples run, then deworming and not seeing much improvement. Our poor guy lost 10 lbs. What finally worked for us was boiled hamburger and mushy rice for 2 weeks, and then a slow switch (over a month) to Purina DCO and tylan powder. Purina DCO sounds a lot like Hills W/D - low fat and high fiber. Now he's doing great and has put the weight back on. I think after diarrhea for so long, you have to get the gut calmed down, and then find a food they can handle. I was afraid for awhile I was going to have to make him boiled hamburger and rice for the rest of his life!

 

Our guy also had a B12 deficiency and had to have shots. Has he been tested for that?

 

Every dog is different - good luck and keep asking questions! Best wishes for Brady!

 

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll see what I have most of on hand and try that first. I think I have a ton of elbow mac, so most likely that will be first. Then take it from there. He hasn't been tested for a B12 deficiency, but I'm guessing he's deficient in a lot of things since he's been on a pland diet for so long! I think it's really taking a toll on him since his hair is falling out (I realize it's shedding season, but it really does seem extreme).

 

The strange thing is he hasn't gone at all yet today and he typically goes in the am and again in the pm, at least. I wonder if things got worse because of the sudden change from ground beef to turkey?! I don't know. I guess I'll find out when he goes again if things have improved.

 

And yes, I AM feeling as though he will be on a bland diet F O R E V E R.... ~ : /

[Guest Zizi]

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll see what I have most of on hand and try that first. I think I have a ton of elbow mac, so most likely that will be first. Then take it from there. He hasn't been tested for a B12 deficiency, but I'm guessing he's deficient in a lot of things since he's been on a pland diet for so long! I think it's really taking a toll on him since his hair is falling out (I realize it's shedding season, but it really does seem extreme).

 

The strange thing is he hasn't gone at all yet today and he typically goes in the am and again in the pm, at least. I wonder if things got worse because of the sudden change from ground beef to turkey?! I don't know. I guess I'll find out when he goes again if things have improved.

 

 

Are you still doing the turkey? It may take a couple days for his guts to settle down if he was having issues with the beef. Maybe it is a good thing that he hasn't gone yet. I think you had said he was going a lot! Maybe things are working and firming up in there! Lol

And yes, I AM feeling as though he will be on a bland diet F O R E V E R.... ~ : /

[Guest AngelPup]

 

Are you still doing the turkey? It may take a couple days for his guts to settle down if he was having issues with the beef. Maybe it is a good thing that he hasn't gone yet. I think you had said he was going a lot! Maybe things are working and firming up in there! Lol

 

 

Yes. I'm going to stick with the turkey for now and see if things get better. He's been on the beef for a while with no improvement. I made another large batch of bland diet tonight, but used macaroni instead of the rice. I want to see if those white flecks go away and whether his stools improve. I'll start feeding him that for breakfast tomorrow. I hope he's not allergic to wheat!

 

He went twice this afternoon. The first time I thought he was finally going to produce a normal stool because the first half was beautiful, then it quickly turned to liquid. His second was liquid. I should have picked up some paper plates to place under him when he goes ...it is very hard to pick these things up!

Edited July 8, 2013 by AngelPup

[DofSweetPotatos]

Brady has been through so much! Have you considered fasting him for 24 hours to let his gut rest? After having a dog with IBD. Sometimes this was the begining to a solution. If his bowels or intestines are inflamed, sometimes having them do a little less work will help calm things down.

Oatmeal is a good grain to put with your bland diet as it will absorb extra water in the colon and bulk up. Don't get instant. Use the old fashioned and cook a big pot. Also, are you using turkey, ground turkey or ground turkey breast? Ground turkey is pretty high in fat as they grind the skin in too. Tukey breast or ground turkey breat would be best, and if that's not am option, boneless skinless chikcen is usually lower in price this time of year. Good luck and wishing Brady and you better days ahead