Poop, Poop, And More Poop!

[Guest AngelPup]

PS, Brady gained almost two pounds over the last three weeks, so clearly I'm feeding him more than enough. I'm going to reduce his daily portion by 1/4 cup and do another weigh in next month. His racing weight was 76 lbs and he was 78 lbs when I adopted him. He's now 79.9 lbs.

[a_daerr]

PS, Brady gained almost two pounds over the last three weeks, so clearly I'm feeding him more than enough. I'm going to reduce his daily portion by 1/4 cup and do another weigh in next month. His racing weight was 76 lbs and he was 78 lbs when I adopted him. He's now 79.9 lbs.

 

This might be the root of the "poop output" problem. You'll probably see a difference once you scale the food back.

[Guest AngelPup]

I'm sure that was a contributing factor--what goes in, must come out!! LOL! He's CONSTANTLY hungry, so I couldn't tell if he was getting enough or not. I think 80 lbs is a good weight for him, so I'm going to try to adjust his food intake to maintain his current weight.

[WalterWallerson]

My main concerns is that if he needs to go THAT many times a day, how will we ever be able to leave him for more than a few hours at a time?! It's not an issue on most days, since there is typically someone always home, but there are the occasional days that the entire family likes to go out or will attend a family function for several hours.... He went three times yesterday and I was gone for an hour after dinner, and he pooped in my daughter's bedroom. He hasn't had an accident for over two weeks (I've had him for three weeks today).

 

Walter pooped 4x a day when I first brought him home. If we go on a walk, he poops as much as 5x but they are excited poops, not "emptying" poops. I think you need to give your houndie some time to adjust. I also think you not give your houndie as much space, maybe close doors off so he can't go in your daughters room.

[Guest AngelPup]

:::: POOP UPDATE :::: oh come on, what would a day on GT be without someone posting about their dog's poop!

 

The vet called me yesterday (on her day off--I'm beginning to really like her) to check on Brady. Gave her the scoop on his poop (they are even more frequent and looser--almost liquid). She explained that hookworms can do a ton of damage to the intestines and that damaged/inflamed intestines don't digest/absorb nutrients like they should, hense the pooding poop. Since we don't know how long Brady had hookworms, his intestines could REALLY be a mess (and it certainly looks that way).

 

So Brady is back on Flagyl for the next 14 days (started yesterday) and a bland diet (started this morning) to help his intestines heal. I think the Flagyl is working since he hasn't gone poop yet today and typically goes two or three times by now. I really hope his GI issues clear up soon.

 

Also, the vet agreed that we should up the hookworm treatment to every two weeks instead of three, so we'll be starting another round this coming Thursday (fourth, three day treatment). Keeping fingers and toes crossed that this round kills them for good!

 

She wants me to call her this week for another update, and I guess we'll take it from there. I'm really hoping it's nothing more serious.

[Guest AngelPup]

Flagyl did the trick again!! Brady went this afternoon and it was perfectly formed. Definitely sticking with this for a while.

 

And I'm a little more hopeful that the new food we've been feeding Brady isn't contributing to the diarrhea since he was still eating it when we put him on the Flagyl. Time will tell.

 

Now to be rid of those hookworms....

[Guest Zizi]

So happy he is doing better! Keep up the good work.

[Guest AngelPup]

Yeah, about that. I spoke too soon. Brady's poops are now worse than ever.

 

I called the vet today and she wants to check a few things (standard bloodwork, stool, etc.) to be sure everything is within normal range. He's still on Flagyl, the bland diet, FortiFlora, and started another round (fourth) of Panacur today. Brady has an appointment on Monday, so hopefully everything comes back normal.

 

Thanks for your well wishes!

[Guest OPointyDog]

Did the appointment today reveal anything?

 

We had a lot of the same issues you're mentioning - though Flagyl never really worked for us. Mika's intenstines were a mess! It really does take a lot of patience to find the right combination of food and possibly meds for each dog. Mika gets Purina DCO (high fiber) and tylan powder every day. He does poop a lot (typically 5 times) but the poop is well formed, so we're happy with that.

 

I will say that the instructions on the bag said to feed him about 5 cups a day!!! We went with 4.5 and he put on a lot of weight very quickly. Now he's down to 3.5 cups a day, and that works pretty well. We give him low calorie treats to fill him up.

 

Good luck!

[Guest Zizi]

Checking In on Brady?

[Guest AngelPup]

Checking In on Brady?

 

Thanks for checking in Zizi! Took Brady to the vet's again yesterday afternoon. While his fecal exam turned up NO hookworm eggs (a very cautious YAY!) they found what they think are whipworm eggs (oh joy). Because they have never seen these type of eggs up here in the NE, they sent the rest of Brady's fecal sample to a lab for further testing. They also mentioned that they saw other weird things in his stool and are hoping the lab can pinpoint what exactly these eggs are from and then we can treat accordingly. The vet seemed concerned that the standard treatment for whipworms is Panacur, and we've been giving Brady a round of that every two to three weeks since May 13. I should be hearing back from them sometime today or tomorrow morning at the latest. We just finished his fourth round of Panacur on Friday, so I was very surprised that ANY eggs showed up. Makes me wonder if whatever worm(s) Brady has is resistant to Panacur--although I don't know much about whipworms. The vet did say that it's another parasite that typically needs several rounds of treatment to get rid of (great).

 

Because Brady's diarrhea issues have not only NOT improved, but have gotten worse, the vet also did standard blood work. The only things that came back a bit high was his sodium levels and kidney function, but she thought that might be attributed to him being dehydrated. He hasn't been drinking very much, so that makes sense. Guess I need to add Gatorade or broth to his water to encourage him to drink more.

 

She also tried (twice) to do an in-house Giardia & bacterial/white blood cell test (by getting a sample from her gloved hand in his anus), but she couldn't get anywhere NEAR his rear end without him completely freaking out (I'm very surprised that the vet tech and Brady didn't get hurt the way he jumped straight up with legs going every which way). She had never had a dog do that before and wondered if he had experienced something traumatic in his past ....

 

He's still on the bland diet and will continue to be for the time being. He's also still taking Flagyl at night and FortiFlora in the morning.

 

I had done some research on the treatment of hookworms in greyhounds and found info from vets who specialize in greyhounds and reviewed my findings with my vet. Some of the meds were similar to what we're already giving Brady, but used in livestock. She was hesitant to use that since it's hard to get the dosing right in dogs. She did agree to a round of Droncit as recommended for all newly adopted greyhounds in the 'Dummies' book in case we're also dealing with tapeworms--mainly because she thought it couldn't do any harm and we would only need one round. She didn't think it would do much to help though, and I think she was just trying to appease me.

 

I'm looking forward to hearing back from them and finally finding out what will WORK to get rid of these stinkin' parasites!

[a_daerr]

Geez Louise. Poor boy.

My only question is, did you try Drontal Plus at any point? Panacur doesn't work on certain parasites, so you'd need Drontal.

[Guest AngelPup]

Did the appointment today reveal anything?

 

We had a lot of the same issues you're mentioning - though Flagyl never really worked for us. Mika's intenstines were a mess! It really does take a lot of patience to find the right combination of food and possibly meds for each dog. Mika gets Purina DCO (high fiber) and tylan powder every day. He does poop a lot (typically 5 times) but the poop is well formed, so we're happy with that.

 

I will say that the instructions on the bag said to feed him about 5 cups a day!!! We went with 4.5 and he put on a lot of weight very quickly. Now he's down to 3.5 cups a day, and that works pretty well. We give him low calorie treats to fill him up.

 

Good luck!

 

Thanks OPD. I'm sure you read my earlier update post, so we know we're dealing with another type of worm now.... UGH! So that at least explains the chronic diarrhea. We'll cross the food intolerance issue once we get these darn buggers dead and buried! I actually think, once he's rid of these things, that he'll do fine on the food I was going to switch him to. There was at least once while we were in the midst of treatment that he had a beautifully firm poop on the 4Health salmon and potato (something I never saw on the first food we were feeding him). It's not completely grain free, but it is designed for dogs with digestive and allergy issues.

 

I'm still waiting to hear back from the vet's office. Hopefully, I'll know something soon! Meanwhile, I'm going to research whipworms...

[Guest AngelPup]

Geez Louise. Poor boy.

My only question is, did you try Drontal Plus at any point? Panacur doesn't work on certain parasites, so you'd need Drontal.

 

At this point, I'll seriously try anything! I've brought up Drontal Plus to the vet twice (including yesterday). She reiterated that it's the same type of wormer as Panacur, but has a med in it that is no longer effective (worms have built a resistance--I did confirm this on a greyhound site--maybe Greyhound-Data health board?), it's not as safe as the Panacur, and it's more expensive... She is VERY hesitant to use it.

 

I'm really looking forward to hearing back from them with the lab results! Maybe they will recommend we use something else. If she recommends that we try more Panacur, I'm going to insist that we try Drontel Plus, and I have the following rebuttals to her issues with it: The medicine in Drontel Plus isn't the exact same medicine that's in Panacur, there are worms that have been found to be resistant to Panacur too, it can't be good for him to constantly be carrying worms and have chronic diarrhea, and finally, I've already spent well over $1,500 on treatment for worms, so I'd rather spend a little more on something that may work, than more on something that may not be working.... :::sigh::: can you tell how very frustrated I am....

[a_daerr]

Wow, that's really shocking. Changing the type of dewormer may or may not make a difference... but here's my $0.02. The hallmark of a good vet is to give you options and listen to your input. The fact that she won't even try is something that would piss me off. For you to keep repeating this same process and shelling out tons of money with little results is extremely frustrating. At this point, I would expect the vet to be doing something else, whether that means more aggressive testing, different meds, whatever.

 

Also, I'm not sure why she'd say Drontal isn't as safe as Panacur. Really, I don't even know what that means? Not as safe in what way? Hopefully this vet doesn't come across any patients with tapeworms, as Panacur doesn't treat those. I'm not an expert on the evolution of parasites, but something's not working here. If this turns out to be whipworms, I would insist on a different wormer. You have nothing to lose. By the way, I've always used Drontal Plus with my dogs, just because it's one pill (around $40) and it's easier than having to do the three-day rounds of Panacur. Other than the possibility of diarrhea (which you're already dealing with), I don't know what other safety concerns there could be. Compared to what you've already paid, the price difference is negligible.

 

P.S. Do you know if she's ruled out coccidia? I had a cat once who had persistent diarrhea for about the first six months of her life. Tested and retested, but her stool samples kept coming up clean. Turns out, she had coccidia, and it was easily treated with Albon.

[Guest AngelPup]

Yeah, I am not very happy with the whole resistance to using Drontal Plus. If I could get it without a script, I'd just get it elsewhere (and I'm not one to go against doctor's orders). After my initial bad first impression, I was really beginning to like her. She does seem to care and is very knowledgeable in general. I'm just not so sure she has enough experience with retired racers (although her husband, who is also a vet and co-owner of the practice, has worked with greyhounds in the past) and she does have other greyhounds in her practice. They are both graduates of Tufts University.

 

Anyway, this is mute at the moment, since the vet called a little while ago to report that the lab didn't find ANY eggs in the stool. She did say that it doesn't mean he doesn't still have worms, it just means that we're still not sure what we're dealing with and why there hasn't been any lasting improvement with all the things we've tried.

 

She has been trying other things to figure out what's going on, but nothing seems to be sticking. For now, since we did just finish a round of Panacur on Friday AND I gave him Droncit last night in the off-chance that he is also dealing with tapeworm, she wants to wait a week to see if things improve. We're going to stay the course (continue bland diet, Flagyl, and Forti-Flora) and I'll call her in a week with an update. Her recommendation for the next steps if there are no improvements are sending out an anal smear for Giardia and something else (maybe what you mentioned earlier, Coccidia?). Unfortunately, because Brady has such an issue with someone doing an anal exam on him, they are going to have to sedate him, which I'm REALLY not liking the thought of that. I will insist on Drontel Plus before that happens!! And if there is no improvement and those test results come back negative, than she wants to test for an enzyme deficiency (forgot what that test is called, but it's VERY expensive). So we DO have a plan--the only difference is that MY next step is using Drontel Plus (and maybe doing another fecal exam, although I hate the fact that there are so many false negatives!).

[Guest RMarie]

Wow, what a disaster! (Btw we need a poop emoticon, don't you agree?) I really hope you figure out what's going on soon. It's an awful long time for Brady to be dealing with the big D.

 

Since he hasn't been having firm poops, should you end up having to sedate him for an anal exam, you might also consider having his glands expressed. With no firm poops to help empty them, they're probably pretty full right now.

[a_daerr]

Her recommendation for the next steps if there are no improvements are sending out an anal smear for Giardia and something else (maybe what you mentioned earlier, Coccidia?).

 

Panacur would cover Giardia... we literally just dealt with that with Truman. He was shedding Giardia cysts and they came up in his routine stool check... Maybe someone else can jump in, but couldn't they just test his stool sample for Giardia? Why the need to take a manual anal smear?

[Guest AngelPup]

Wow, what a disaster! (Btw we need a poop emoticon, don't you agree?) I really hope you figure out what's going on soon. It's an awful long time for Brady to be dealing with the big D.

 

Since he hasn't been having firm poops, should you end up having to sedate him for an anal exam, you might also consider having his glands expressed. With no firm poops to help empty them, they're probably pretty full right now.

 

WAY too long to be dealing with diarrhea--I feel so bad for him!

 

Funny you mention his anal glands...I don't think we need to worry about them needing to be emptied. When the vet was trying to do an anal exam on him (for the the second time) he ended up squirting out their contents all over the floor. Eew.

 

Panacur would cover Giardia... we literally just dealt with that with Truman. He was shedding Giardia cysts and they came up in his routine stool check... Maybe someone else can jump in, but couldn't they just test his stool sample for Giardia? Why the need to take a manual anal smear?

 

Yeah, she did say that Panacur treats Giardia and so does the Flagyl. I think she was wondering whether it could be a very resistant strain. She also wants to treat for that other thingy (forgot what she called it) and apparently that test is only done for BOTH bugs. You mentioned your cat had Coccidia. How do you test for that?

[Guest Zizi]

Poor Brady and poor you, what a nightmare this has become for you both. I feel so bad he is having to go through all of this with no improvements.

 

I am a newbie and do not no much, but is there any way that maybe the fortiflora or the flagal just does not agree with him or his system? Smells like there is some beef in the fortiflora maybe he can't tolerate beef! Like I said I really have no clue but he has been on these same meds for some time and nothing is changing. I would be talking to my vet about trying something different for sure.

 

Keeping all paws crossed here for you and Brady!

[a_daerr]

Fecal test under a microscope, although some strains need confirmed by a blood test. I don't ever think the vet saw coccidia cysts in my cat's stool sample (since it was usually just water and very hard to get a real sample). But after she was treated with Albon, she was better.

[Guest RMarie]

Poor Brady and poor you, what a nightmare this has become for you both. I feel so bad he is having to go through all of this with no improvements.

 

I am a newbie and do not no much, but is there any way that maybe the fortiflora or the flagal just does not agree with him or his system? Smells like there is some beef in the fortiflora maybe he can't tolerate beef! Like I said I really have no clue but he has been on these same meds for some time and nothing is changing. I would be talking to my vet about trying something different for sure.

 

Keeping all paws crossed here for you and Brady!

You're new, but also correct. It is possible that one or either are causing further irritation. From our own experience with Flagyl, it doesn't work for James. But, he's fine with Fortiflora. In this situation, though, there seems to be a lot going on. It would be tough to figure out until the worms/parasites are gone.

[Guest AngelPup]

Poor Brady and poor you, what a nightmare this has become for you both. I feel so bad he is having to go through all of this with no improvements.

 

I am a newbie and do not no much, but is there any way that maybe the fortiflora or the flagal just does not agree with him or his system? Smells like there is some beef in the fortiflora maybe he can't tolerate beef! Like I said I really have no clue but he has been on these same meds for some time and nothing is changing. I would be talking to my vet about trying something different for sure.

 

Keeping all paws crossed here for you and Brady!

 

Hmmmm. I've been giving him boiled ground beef and white rice for his bland diet. If he has a beef intolorance, than that could be the reason we're not seeing an improvement. I can't remember whether I had started him out on chicken and rice the first time and then switched to beef or vise versa--DANG, I really should journal these things! What the heck, I think I'll try chicken or turkey and rice and cut out the Forti-Flora to see if there's an improvement.

 

Thanks for mentioning this! Sometimes it takes a newbie to see something that others overlook. I'm a newbie too, but apparently too dense to figure that out! LOL! Gee, I hope it's only a beef intolorance!

Edited July 3, 2013 by AngelPup

[Guest AngelPup]

On a brighter note, we did notice that Brady seems to be feeling better today. He's been more active, goofy, and playful and getting in the way more (in that cute but dangerous, I want to be as near to you as possible way).

 

Could it be the Droncit I gave him last night? Or maybe he's finally rid of the hookworms? Or could be just a good day... Only God knows.

Fecal test under a microscope, although some strains need confirmed by a blood test. I don't ever think the vet saw coccidia cysts in my cat's stool sample (since it was usually just water and very hard to get a real sample). But after she was treated with Albon, she was better.

 

I'm going to mention this to the vet the next time I speak with her. And also ask why she can't just check his stool for Giardia--why send it out or do an anal smear that would require sedation?! I'm not understanding this.

[JJNg]

I'm not understanding the resistance to try Drontal Plus either, and I also don't believe it's any less safe than Panacur. Most of the standard dewormers are very safe medications. I'm also wondering if your vet is addressing the finding of whipworms? Are they discounting what they saw on the in-house fecal because the lab didn't find any eggs in the sample that was sent out? Whipworms eggs are very distinct, and if they saw them on the fecal, they were there. The only worm egg that is occasionally confused with whipworms is Capillaria, which is a lungworm, but they're different enough that it's not hard to tell them apart if you know what you're looking for.

 

And yes, Giardia testing can be done on a fecal sample, so there should be no need to sedate him for a rectal exam. I hope Brady continues to improve and that you get things figured out soon. I'd be thinking about getting a 2nd opinion from a different vet....