Puppy Fear Phases!

[krissy]

I heard from several good greyhound sources that greyhounds do not go through the typical puppy fear phases. This is a lie. At least it's a lie for Kili.

 

While I only noticed minor worries and insecurities throughout most of puppyhood, we are going through one whopping fear phase right now. I just got in from a walk and decided to write this blog because the alternative was to sit down and cry.

 

When we hit 7 months I was so happy. The last fear phase is typically around 6 months. I thought we were home free. I had noticed more interest in the environment when we were out on walks starting at about 6.5 months but it just seemed like curiosity. You normally become less interesting to an adolescent dog as they develop other interests, so I wasn't concerned. Then she started to refuse food on walks, drop food that she did accept, and constantly seemed unsure about things going on (benevolent things like birds chirping, as well as a resurgence in her anxiety about dogs barking at her). I started taking her out more often and for longer walks (it helps that the weather is FINALLY starting to cooperate). I had a week off work last week and I took her to all sorts of stores to meet people, dogs and see new places. In general I found her environmental distraction/fear was much lower indoors, even in new buildings, than outside. I walked her downtown more often so she could see more hustle and bustle. I took her to the dog park as often as possible (it's 45 minutes away) so she could meet new dogs, people, and just enjoy being outside. Instead of pulling her along when she wanted to stop I allowed her to just look around (even when it looked like there was nothing to look at). She seemed to be doing a little bit better.

 

Then a few days ago I noticed that she wasn't pulling head on to meet new people. She still wanted to go over to them, but she sweeps in from the side or from behind. She doesn't try to jump or get at their faces. People try to pet her and she ducks away. She won't accept food from anyone on walks. I just had her out for an hour and I probably asked over 10 people to stop and say hello to her. I gave every person a couple of high value treats. In most cases she would accept the treat and then drop it. If I then picked it up and offered it she would eat it. In a few cases she ate the treats she was offered. In a few cases she refused to even take the treat.

 

I want to cry. I want my friendly, waggly, jumping puppy back. My greatest fear is that this lukewarm personality is here to stay. My only option is to get her out to socialize as much as possible and make all associations with the world, people, and other dogs as positive as possible. I have to just keep telling myself this is a fear phase and it will pass. I will have my friendly, waggly, jumping puppy back. Hopefully sooner than later. I have to keep telling myself that to try to make myself believe it. It's the only thing keeping me from breaking down.

 

It is just a fear phase. I hope.

 

(Copy and pasted from my blog. Seriously though, anyone who has raised a puppy before want to reassure me? My logical brain tells me this is normal. I KNOW it's normal. But my heart is having a hard time with it. Patience has never been a particularly strong point of mine. Did your puppy go through a really bad fear phase? Did their end personality end up being similar to what it was as a puppy prior to the fear phase?)

[OwnedBySummer]

This is going to be an interesting thread to follow. I've never heard of "fear phases". I have raised one puppy, the dog before Summer, and she was a pointer/pit cross. Never once did I see a personality change or a fear phase or anything. Maturing out of puppy behaviors, yes, but not anything unexpected.

[GeorgeofNE]

I've lived with a string of puppies since I was an infant, and none of them have ever had a "fear phase."

 

Healthy well adjusted puppies do not as a matter of course go through fear phases. Oh, sure, a pup now an again will be afraid of something--usually irrationally. But there are no normal fear phases.

[krissy]

There are definitely normal fear phases. My pup has come up through several training classes and we still see many of the oth pups from puppy classes in her new classes. Most of them have gone through some form of fear phase. The ages, severity and what they are afraid of have varied but most of them did have one or more phases. The Aussie is currently in a fear phase as well? It's normal enough that the trainer always talks about fear phases in the puppy classes. I'm just surprised because I had the breeder and a few other people mention that greyhounds don't have fear phases like most other breeds do so I wasn't really expecting one, particularly with how much socialization Kili gets on a regular basis compared to other puppies.

 

ETA: Certainly there are pups who don't have majorly noticeable fear phases. There is one pup from classes who hasn't really had a major fear period. That doesn't mean fear phases are abnormal.

Edited March 31, 2013 by krissy

[Yamaha_gurl]

Is it that you are worried that the fear phase will stay with her forever?

[krissy]

Is it that you are worried that the fear phase will stay with her forever?

Yeah, I guess even though I know this is a normal phase in her life and have been reassured by multiple people (our trainer, another greyhound agility acquaintance, friends who have raised puppies) that she will get through this, it's hard for me not to worry about it. I want to help her through it, hence the extra socialization, but I don't want to overwhelm her and make it worse.

 

It's hard to see your previously very social, gregarious puppy very suddenly nervous of things. And people tell you it'll pass, but if you've never been there before it's kind of hard to believe even when you trust those people and have read about it in numerous books. There's always that worry in the back of your mind that it won't go away.

[galgomum]

Having raised Lehto from 12 weeks on and Paquita from just 5 weeks I definitely believe there are fear phases.
And they aren't gone after 8 or 9 months.
Heck, the agility class I am taking Lehto too with dogs his age (he will be 2 next month) we still have some issues at times because they still can decide that that one piece of equipment that they have done for months without trouble, suddenly has become this fearful monster.

If greyhounds are like most big dogs and sighthounds, they mature somewhat later than the smaller dogs is my understanding.

[krissy]

Having raised Lehto from 12 weeks on and Paquita from just 5 weeks I definitely believe there are fear phases.

And they aren't gone after 8 or 9 months.

Heck, the agility class I am taking Lehto too with dogs his age (he will be 2 next month) we still have some issues at times because they still can decide that that one piece of equipment that they have done for months without trouble, suddenly has become this fearful monster.

 

If greyhounds are like most big dogs and sighthounds, they mature somewhat later than the smaller dogs is my understanding.

 

I've been doing more reading on this today since I definitely couldn't make excuses after her performance on her walk today. And yes, I agree. From my research it seems that the second fear phase is anywhere from 6-14 months, and there is often another one around 2 years that tends to be milder.

 

How long did your puppies' fear phases usually last? Did you do anything to help them work through it? I've basically been letting her do things at her own pace and asking strangers to try to give her a treat. I don't want to push her so hard that I overwhelm her and possibly cause permanent damage, but I do want to help her.

[galgomum]

I think you are doing the right thing, in class we give them gentle encouragement until they have had success one or two times, by than, they are usually over it.
Avoiding the situation isn't going to work, just realizing they need some extra time and are not trying to be a pain.

[a_daerr]

Oh my goodness, Kristie!! This sounds like deja vu. I think I posted about this somewhere a few months ago. Truman went through a VERY exaggerated fear phase. His happened a little bit later, sometime after he was neutered which was right at 12 months. Around Christmas, I took him to a greyhound holiday bazaar, and it absolutely shocked me how differently he acted. He was leash aggressive, very uncertain in new environments. As you said, he was still interested, but reluctant to be petted by strange people. Out of nowhere, he started guarding his food bowl. His confidence with other dogs went out the window. I was terrified, because it was such a drastic change from the spunky, fearless puppy I had known for so long.

 

It really does get better. I did the same thing you're doing- lots of desensitization, and I amped up his obedience classes. I didn't want to "overexpose" him, so there we repeatedly went to a lot of different, but familiar places, and I made sure I rewarded him like crazy. At this point, Truman really responded to verbal praise and encouragement (even more so than treats). I would just softly and calmly reassure him, then make a huge deal of telling him what a good boy he was when I got my desired response. He's 18-months-old now, and while he is definitely more "quirky" than he was as a puppy, he's almost totally back to normal. This was BY FAR the most stressful developmental period for me, because I didn't know how to predict the behaviors and how far to push him... But you just do the best you can. She'll come out of it eventually.

 

 

There was an article I read from Manners Unleashed that described The Second Fear Imprint Stage like this (it helped me immensely).

 

This stage leaves owners scratching their head at their dogs' weird behaviors. This fear period corresponds with hormonal changes & growth spurts. To many owners' dismay, (and even with stellar socialization early on) your usually confident pup may display fearfulness of new situations, objects, people or other dogs. Many dogs will show a rise in their level of aggression or reactivity during this time. They may become protective and territorial, and may make a new attempt to test owners. Some individuals will pass through this period faster than others, often with no noticeable problems. Others may display marked changes in behavior in strange situations. Reinforce the behaviors you want; do not inadvertantly reinforce fearfulness by coddling, but also avoid punishing timidness or "forcing" them to face their fears. A firm, patient leader is always what we should strive to be in any stage of our dogs' development, but that resolve will never be put to the test more than this time in your relationship with your dog. Postpone extremely stressful or traumatic experiences for dogs that appear to be in this fear imprint period.

[krissy]

Thanks guys. Glad to hear they come out of these fear phases in the real world, not just in behaviour/training books. Somehow it always makes me feel better to hear it from lots of other people who have been there that I (kinda) know.

 

Definitely did better last night and today, so I'll just continue getting her out more and letting her take her time to convince herself that it's okay.

 

By the way, how much did Truman grow after about 8 months? I've heard that you double their 4 month weight and that is a good estimate of adult weight. That would put Kili at 56 lbs. She's 7.5 months old and hasn't quite hit 50 lbs. her growth has definitely slowed way down. Since about end of January I think she's only put on about 1.5-2 kg and she's managed to wear the same fleece coat since February. I am finally noticing it is getting just a touch short in the back (I can actually see her tail head now) but overall I definitely don't really notice her growth now. She obviously has some filling out to do, though she's not nearly as skinny as some of the boy pups on GT seem to be. She's in really good condition. I'm definitely hoping she'll be small for agility just not sure when to start celebrating. Lol

[greysmom]

I had never heard of "fear stages" either, but I can see how Lilly has passed through them. She's also 18 months old, and never really had much outward fear, or changes in how she interacts with strangers, but she REALLY started testing her boundaries with us. Acting up, being b-a-d, destructive chewing (which we thought she'd gotten over months ago), picky eating, not listening - just being a total PITA. For about three weeks. Now she's back to being a good girl again - sweet, very affectionate, *fairly* obedient

 

Lilly stopped growing before Christmas. Thank God. Because she's huge. She only weighs about 72 lbs, but she's 34 inches tall and 32 inches long - a string bean with ridiculously long legs! But I can still span her chest with my palm. You can see her heart beating on both sides of her. Our vet is unconcerned at this point, and just keeps saying she'll fill out soon. If she does, she'll top out at over 80 pounds!

[a_daerr]

He actually grew a lot after 8 months and at 18 months, he's still continuing to fill out. He definitely doubled his four month weight (he was 40 pounds then, 83 now). Then, he hit another major growth spurt between 12-14 months. Even now, he's still very skinny, and you can see all his hip plates and spinal vertebrae. I expect him to be about 90 lbs. by the time he reaches two years old. I keep in contact with his breeder, and I always tell her what a huge dinosaur he is. She kept one of his sisters, and the female was more petite and way less interested in food. So I think there's a definite difference between the males and females, and even marked variations between dogs in the same litter. The AKC/CKC dogs are bigger, in general, so I would expect Kili to be in the 60's (unless she is really just a tiny girl). At least for Truman, his growth patterns were very long, spread out, and didn't really follow textbook development at all.

[Guest Caelestis]

I don't hang out on Greytalk much (in fact I had to create a new account to post this becasue my old one was deleted), I was pointed toward this topic by a friend. I'm no expert, but I've raised a couple of AKC/CKC greyhound puppies (I'm on my 3rd right now).

re: size: Laurie's dogs are all pretty close to the standard in size, so I wouldn't expect Kili to remain "small" compared to a small NGA dog. Her current agility bitch is about 28" at the withers.

As for the fear phases, they're not a lie but they also don't happen to every puppy. I'd like to invite you to join a Facebook group called "Greyhounds For All". There are many experienced greyhound breeders from all over the world on that group, and they can advise you on how best to get her through the fear periods without lasting damage.

 

As for "Lily" the tall greypup...was she spayed young? If so, that's why she's so tall. The bone growth plates require the onset of puberty and the release of sex hormones to cause them to close at the right age. If those hormones aren't present, the bones keep growing for a while longer than they should.

[krissy]

I expected she'd be in the 60s for weight but she'll have to have another huge growth spurt to do it. Most people don't have large, leggy dogs so most dogs I see are pretty close to their full grown size by the time I spay or neuter them at 6 months. I don't see a lot of sighthounds or Danes or Dobbies. So I'm really not sure how much more she's going to grow or how big to expect her to be. I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE her to stay small. Love. As long as she's not over 65 I'll be happy.

 

ETA: I'll definitely look into that FB group, thanks!

Edited April 1, 2013 by krissy

[Guest rennina]

I believe there are fear phases in puppyhood. Misty's breeder sent me a very good book: Rutherford and Neil's "How to Raise a Puppy You Can Live With". The book has a lot of details about the typical fear phases if you're interested.

 

I did notice Misty being very cautious about new things when she was around 6 mouths old. Not sure if it was the “fear stage”...I think it really depends on the individual dog.

[krissy]

Just an update.

 

If you are not a believer in fear phases... believe me you will be after you have your first puppy that does show one.

 

Kili is absolutely totally back to normal. Loves everyone and everything again. It is honestly like a light switch it is that instantaneous. I literally woke up one day and she had turned into a terrified little dog. I woke up 3 weeks later and she was back to her jubilant self. Go figure.

 

So glad that is over. Hopefully that was her last fear phase!

[Scooby172]

After I initially read this thread I thought about my puppies and realized there were phases where each of them was a little "off" Most recently, Jack, at about 9 months old had a short phase of intense barking at people on the street while walking. It came out of nowhere and I was a bit worried his happy, go lucky, "I love everyone" personality was changing. Well, it only lasted a short while before he was back to his old self. Other puppies I have had did experience similar situations, but Jack's seemed to be the most prominent. I did go through that puppy regression with all my pups, you know that phase where everything they learned goes right out the window! Glad to be through all of the puppy phases with Jack, well, at least most.

Linda, Keeva and Jack

[krissy]

I did go through that puppy regression with all my pups, you know that phase where everything they learned goes right out the window!

Oh yeah, Kili can't do a darn thing any more. She went from 7 months old and knowing how to heel perfectly on leash to 8 months old and so distracted she can't even look at me for a split second on a walk (see "Environmental Distraction" on my blog for an example of how distracted she is). Ugh. So annoying!

[a_daerr]

Oh yeah, Kili can't do a darn thing any more. She went from 7 months old and knowing how to heel perfectly on leash to 8 months old and so distracted she can't even look at me for a split second on a walk (see "Environmental Distraction" on my blog for an example of how distracted she is). Ugh. So annoying!

 

Hahaha, YES!! When Truman was around the same age, we actually had to drop out of an obedience class because he was so distracted and couldn't work. Re-enrolled a few months later, and he was excellent- passed his CGC test with no problems. Fear stages are definitely real. Glad Kili is back to normal!

[Guest widowcali]

I have never heard of fear phases. And the only puppy I have raised is an IW mix.

 

But, my Brighid the Wonder Puppy does have some triggers. She is very unsure about human men (I chalk this down to us being an estrogen household). I have had to change vets because my greyhound savvy vet is a guy and Bri would do so much submissive peeing and hiding behind me that he couldn't really do an exam. So I try to desensitize her by having my uncles and my nephews spend time at my place. So far it seems to be working.

 

Some dogs aren't food oriented, though. Bri is, but one of the puppies in her training class was more interested in toys, so that is what his people and the trainer used. Maybe you could try having people reward Kili with her favorite toy.

[mangos_mom]

Seeing this thread for the first time and reading with interest as I had been wondering about this exact thing. Holly is just turned 7 mos and I'm seeing fear responses to the odd thing here and there all of a sudden. Most aren't huge, just that she hadn't reacted that way toward whatever the stimulus is when she encountered it at an earlier age.

 

Biggest one I have right now is that she seems to be afraid of engine noises. When the lawn service comes, she hides under my desk until they are gone. And in a car, she's happy as a lark until the speed of the car gets up to around 50mph, then she comes diving through into the front seat and down under the dashboard on the passenger side. And that's where she stays until the car stops again. I've thought of tethering her in the back using a harness and leash, but I don't know whether that will make it worse or not.

 

Happy to see that puppy fear stages aren't a figment of my imagination, or a result of something I'm not doing right with her, though.

[krissy]

The general consensus, and what worked for me, was to continue exposure but at the puppy's own pace. Let her decide what she's comfortable with and don't let her get into situations where she's going to be overwhelmed. So if she wants to approach something she's afraid of, let her, but don't push her to do it. You can certainly encourage. Like I was trying to have people feed her as my "encouragement" but if she didn't want to go up to someone I didn't pick her up or pull her over. I let her decide to not see certain people or dogs if that's what she chose. Just don't baby or reassure her when she's afraid of something. I usually use a happy, excited voice and say "what's that!?" because if you try to say "it's okay" it almost always comes out coddling and reassuring.

 

It will pass. It was a long 3 weeks for us but it disappears as quickly as it comes... almost overnight. So weird.

[cleptogrey]

. "Reinforce the behaviors you want; do not inadvertantly reinforce fearfulness by coddling, but also avoid punishing timidness or "forcing" them to face their fears. A firm, patient leader is always what we should strive to be in any stage of our dogs' development, but that resolve will never be put to the test more than this time in your relationship with your dog. Postpone extremely stressful or traumatic experiences for dogs that appear to be in this fear imprint period."

 

from what i experienced w/ felix- he was adopted at 7 weeks some where around your pup's age their brains sorta shut down, putting it midly. adolescence is a strange period, i was ready to pull my hair out. some of the behavior was down right hysterical as i think about it 5.5 years later, but quite frustrating. i know aussies can get really really fearful, but my guy just lost his "smarts" and acted stupid. i continued rewarding the behavior w/ treats and praise, i dared not stop training classes- the instructors were a humorous crew and laughed at how inexperienced he became- everything was new to felix at that point. i generally ignored the "fearful" behavior and just tried to deal w/ the insainity of the situation. i will say neutering him helped, but you are showing your pup. so, wait out her hormonal changes. she hasn't come into season yet, has she?

 

oh, what saved me.....my adoption rep has a non-track grey who went thru the same stuff. at the time we used to meet up and walk together regularly, her laughter was my consoling voice. she guaranteed that he wouldn't change for quite some time. so, in my defense...i started exercising him more- he was too tired to act stupid! i hope this helps!

[krissy]

I regularly check in with other people who have puppies. Jen Bachelor's puppy is about a month and a half older so that has been really helpful. And when all else fails I check in with my breeder for reassurance.

 

I am showing her here and there for fun. We've only done one show. Planning for one in June. That's not why I'm keeping her intact. She's going to be an agility dog so I want her to grow properly and close her growth plates before I spay her, probably around 18 months before her first season.

 

She has definitely forgotten how to do just about anything she knew a month ago. Very frustrating. Just have to ride it out until she comes out the other side of adolescence. I hate puppies. They really are no fun at all. Lol