Zeke Still Not Doing Well :(

[RaineysMom]

so we continue to struggle with Zeke's intestinal issues.

 

when we got him on 1/4, his poo was soft but still somewhat formed (although by the end of the day was more like pudding). I was originally told he was on Canidae Chicken and Rice formula -- we feed the Canidae all-life formula (PAWS) -- so I got a bag of the chicken and rice and started feeding him 3/4 that and 1/4 the Paws. Well, his poop continued to be very soft-- and I gave him a raw turkey neck on 1/20 (I think, his poop wasn't bad enough for me to worry about giving him that, and I don't think raw is a bad thing) and his poops continued to be soft serve. In between that, on 1/22 I found out that he WAS in fact on just the PAWS and NOT the chicken, so we stopped with the chicken and just started giving the PAWS (along with cooked rice, cooked oatmeal, cooked beef, pumpkin, and yogurt, a variety of those were added in). I worried that by giving him a food he was not on started all of this.

 

we took him to the vet on 1/25 and she put him on Flagyl and got a sample ran. We found out he had (a pretty bad, according to the vet) case of hookworms. He went on 2 rounds of Flagyl (finished on Tuesday 2/5), got 3 doses of Panacur 1/27, 1/28 & 1/29; one dose of Drontal Plus this past Tuesday morning (2/5); and we have one more (3 rounds) of Panacur to give this coming Tues/Wed/Thur.

 

I phased out the Canidae chicken and rice and was giving him just 1 cup of PAWS along with the other add-ins mentioned, then just Wednesday (2/6) we started him on the Iam's Proactive Health (lamb and rice, the "Green Bag" as so many suggesting, INCLUDING our vet!). I started out as slow as I could to transition but at this point, even the vet agrees there's not much point since he has such bad D already. So, by this morning, he was on about 3/4 cup of Iam's and 1/4 cup of PAWS and his evening meal will have about 1.5 cups of Iam's and maybe 1/2 cup of PAWS (trying to get more kibble in now) -- along with some add-ins too.

 

In between all of this, he has vomited FOUR times in the 35 days we've had him The first time (1/8), we had taken him on a bit longer walk at 6:10pm or so, then waited about 45-50 minutes, then fed. He vomited it up about 40 minutes later. The second time was also after eating dinner, but a bit longer and I"m not quite sure the actual day, but it was somewhere between 1/13 and 1/24 and IIRC he was more excited that evening, goofing off more (we try to keep them calm 1 hour before and 2 hours after, for bloat). The third time was just this past Monday (2/4) at 5:45pm and he puked 3 times, with only the last one producing a small mucousy clear liquid. I gave him a Pepcid thinking it may be from the fact it was 12 hours since his last meal (we feed around 6:10pm or so) and he was fine after that.

 

we wake up this morning (2/8) at 4:50am to him throwing up twice again -- 2 small piles of mostly digested food, with a few small pieces of kibble in it. I'm MORE than paranoid about vomiting since we had TWO dogs with bloat, but this doesn't seem to be what it is (thank GOD). But, I obviously do not want him to puke!

 

so, I know there's a million suggestions on how to handle this, but I guess could the vomiting be from the hooks too? I'm SURE he still has them, I know it will take more than just 2 treatments if he is this infested.

 

his poops this morning were soft but a little better formed -- but may go south as the day progresses, but at LEAST it's better than the past few days of PURE liquid.

 

I hate to keep switching so many things all at once, since we may not find either the right combo or what is really causing it, but I don't want him to be this miserable for another few weeks of Panacur treatment. argh...this is more of a rant than anything...just hope I'm doing the right thing for him. I have never gone through D this bad with any other dog and I just feel so bad for him.

 

if anyone has any thoughts on the vomiting, that would be great. I just hope he is not an IBD dog or the like. This probably sounds bad, but we spent SO much this past year on Nube and I am still unemployed, and have already spent $700 at the vet on Zeke in 1 month. I just can't afford a lot of tests and stuff

 

 

[Rustyroo]

My thoughts just based on what I went through with Rusty. He did not do well on any kind of Canidae, so I had to switch foods. Then I tried another kind and he starting puking. Turns out that that food was too rich for him. So we made another change. In the end I believe I was feeding him Chicken Soup for the Dog Lovers Soul and he did really well on that. No more soft poops and no more puking. Maybe Zeke just needs to try a whole different kind of food.

[Houndtime]

Well, the green bag is chicken. I believe the red bag is lamb. I have had good success giving my dogs home cooked oatmeal. It is an ingredient in all sensitive stomach foods.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Houndtime

[Batmom]

If the vomiting started after you added the IAMS (or any other addition), I'd stop it.

 

I would suggest simplifying what you're feeding -- either just PAWS for now, or just beef + rice. Otherwise it can be hard to tell whether or which food item might not agree with the dog.

 

If the vomiting started with no relation to what you were feeding, how often, medication, etc., I personally would spring for an abdominal x-ray -- but that is cheap for me and probably lots more expensive where you are . If he isn't in terrible distress, I would try the simplified feeding for 3-4 days and see how he does; then reassess need for a "let's make sure there's no foreign body in there" x-ray.

 

Hugs and best luck.

[carronstar]

Sending lots of hugs. You have been through so much this past couple of years. Zeke is lucky to have you. At this point, I think the simplest food that he will eat is probably the best. You have lots of good advice from the posters ahead of me.

[greyhead]

Spencer was heavily infested with hooks. We soon found he couldn't tolerate white rice. Later he couldn't tolerate brown rice or any other grain after he developed IBD. The most basic food change we made was to get Natural Balance foods using sweet potato instead of grain -- in a very simple formula. (We never did have a vomiting problem with Spencer, but that's because the focus of his problems was past the stomach, down in the small intestine.) Good luck.

[robinw]

You might went to try a really "simple" food also, one with just a few ingredients, like Natural Balance or Go Natural, which I think is hard to find in the US.

[RaineysMom]

If the vomiting started after you added the IAMS (or any other addition), I'd stop it.

 

I would suggest simplifying what you're feeding -- either just PAWS for now, or just beef + rice. Otherwise it can be hard to tell whether or which food item might not agree with the dog.

 

If the vomiting started with no relation to what you were feeding, how often, medication, etc., I personally would spring for an abdominal x-ray -- but that is cheap for me and probably lots more expensive where you are . If he isn't in terrible distress, I would try the simplified feeding for 3-4 days and see how he does; then reassess need for a "let's make sure there's no foreign body in there" x-ray.

 

Hugs and best luck.

 

he vomited 3 times prior to starting the Iam's (and it's the red bag, lamb and rice, I just called it the Green Bag since that's how it's referred to here a lot ). Maybe it's the Canidae that's the problem.

 

unfortunately I don't know how he did in his 1 week foster home or how he did in the 2 weeks he was in his first home. I asked about when he was at the GO kennel and the kennel lady said most dogs there have pretty loose poop just because of the stress of being there (which makes sense). We'll keep the x-ray in mind, you just never know.

 

ETA: I can't remember now if we tried just rice and beef but I think we did, with no difference but I can try it again for a few days.

 

 

 

Spencer was heavily infested with hooks. We soon found he couldn't tolerate white rice. Later he couldn't tolerate brown rice or any other grain after he developed IBD. The most basic food change we made was to get Natural Balance foods using sweet potato instead of grain -- in a very simple formula. (We never did have a vomiting problem with Spencer, but that's because the focus of his problems was past the stomach, down in the small intestine.) Good luck.

 

 

 

I think the Iam's is pretty basic, at least more so than the PAWS...?

 

and what kind of symptoms did Spencer present with with the IBD? I've heard a lot of folks say vets are more quick to lump intestinal issues as IBD when sometimes they really are not....

Edited February 8, 2013 by RaineysMom

[Batmom]

I suggested simplifying more re the vomiting than the poop. Hard to tell what will irritate a dog's tummy when it is empty -- leftover bones from turkey neck, certain kibble residues, you name it. Joseph, for example, is likely to vomit if he gets carrots in his food. Then there was Batman, who vomited yellow slime nearly every day and sometimes twice for 6 months due to a particular kibble ......... Simpler makes it easier to tell.

 

If the poop is simply mooshy and not pure liquid, and he isn't distressed about it, I'd worry about that once his hookworm treatment is done and he isn't vomiting anymore. A cow pie is annoying to pick up but it won't hurt him, KWIM?

[RaineysMom]

I suggested simplifying more re the vomiting than the poop. Hard to tell what will irritate a dog's tummy when it is empty -- leftover bones from turkey neck, certain kibble residues, you name it. Joseph, for example, is likely to vomit if he gets carrots in his food. Then there was Batman, who vomited yellow slime nearly every day and sometimes twice for 6 months due to a particular kibble ......... Simpler makes it easier to tell.

 

If the poop is simply mooshy and not pure liquid, and he isn't distressed about it, I'd worry about that once his hookworm treatment is done and he isn't vomiting anymore. A cow pie is annoying to pick up but it won't hurt him, KWIM?

 

well, it was pretty liquidy up until yesterday -- but he just went for the 3rd time today and it was soft but still a bit formed (still cowpie on the ground).

 

stuff like this makes you wonder how they did/survived 3.5 years on the track, you know? You'd think they'd do a 180 and do great once on better food, etc. Geesh.

 

can hooks make them vomit? I Googled but didn't get a real definitive answer. I wasn't as concerned the first 2 times he vomited, since we attributed it to the walk and feeding too soon and for him being more excited that night (can't remember why). This one this morning was 11 hours after eating and he had been sleeping pretty much since 8pm the night before, so no excitement there.

[greymatters]

Oh boy, does this sound familiar - sorry you and Zeke are going through this misery. Hooks are EVIL.

 

Our Merlin had hooks when we first brought him home, but it took almost 3 months before we realized what was wrong. He had three negative fecals before the one that finally showed a severe hookworm infestation. In the meantime, he suffered through bouts of terrible diarrhea, sometimes bloody, and yes vomiting too. As I recall, at one point he was vomiting up last night's undigested dinner at 6am, and in fact it was the vomiting and associated dehydration that kept us going back to the vet for more tests and ultimately revealed the hooks.

 

A couple things based on our experience and ongoing consultation with our vet: first, some vets recommend at least two courses of panacur, each for 5 full days (vs just 3) and two weeks apart, to treat an active hookworm infestation. This is the protocol we followed. At the same time, we gave our boy flagyl before meals (iirc 500mg twice daily, for anywhere from 7-10 days), and Pepcid twice daily with meals. We switched him to a simple bland diet, ONE home-cooked protein (can try ground beef, boiled chicken, or turkey) plus ONE starch (white rice, potatoes, or pasta), no add-ins or treats until his poops improved. Then we slowly started adding in kibble containing the same protein source.

 

Unfortunately due to the hookworm life-cycle, these buggers are really hard to get rid of. Their larvae can 'encyst' in tissues outside the GI tract and hang out in a dormant state for a long time. Then, when something wakes them up they migrate to the gut and mature, wreaking their havoc all over again. For this reason we followed an extended treatment protocol, basically repeating another 3-day course of panacur about every 2 months for the next year. For the record, the senior vet at the practice we go to recommended this based on Merlin's history, but the younger ones (not having discussed it with him) were skeptical about it, to put it mildly.

 

Lastly, and this part is solely my own speculation - I think it's possible that a dog could develop sensitivties to foods that he's eating during an active hookworm infestation, because hooks dig channels in the GI tract and provoke a strong acute inflammatory response. Merlin was eating chicken-based food all throughout his battle with hooks. Even after we got rid of the hooks, his poop wasn't actually good until we stopped feeding him chicken. Could be coincidence, but if you're still battling mild diarrhea after the hooks are gone, might think about switching proteins in the kibble.

 

Sorry this is so long, just wanted to share our experiences. Hope Zeke feels better soon!

 

-Michele

[RaineysMom]

Oh boy, does this sound familiar - sorry you and Zeke are going through this misery. Hooks are EVIL.

 

Our Merlin had hooks when we first brought him home, but it took almost 3 months before we realized what was wrong. He had three negative fecals before the one that finally showed a severe hookworm infestation. In the meantime, he suffered through bouts of terrible diarrhea, sometimes bloody, and yes vomiting too. As I recall, at one point he was vomiting up last night's undigested dinner at 6am, and in fact it was the vomiting and associated dehydration that kept us going back to the vet for more tests and ultimately revealed the hooks.

 

A couple things based on our experience and ongoing consultation with our vet: first, some vets recommend at least two courses of panacur, each for 5 full days (vs just 3) and two weeks apart, to treat an active hookworm infestation. This is the protocol we followed. At the same time, we gave our boy flagyl before meals (iirc 500mg twice daily, for anywhere from 7-10 days), and Pepcid twice daily with meals. We switched him to a simple bland diet, ONE home-cooked protein (can try ground beef, boiled chicken, or turkey) plus ONE starch (white rice, potatoes, or pasta), no add-ins or treats until his poops improved. Then we slowly started adding in kibble containing the same protein source.

 

Unfortunately due to the hookworm life-cycle, these buggers are really hard to get rid of. Their larvae can 'encyst' in tissues outside the GI tract and hang out in a dormant state for a long time. Then, when something wakes them up they migrate to the gut and mature, wreaking their havoc all over again. For this reason we followed an extended treatment protocol, basically repeating another 3-day course of panacur about every 2 months for the next year. For the record, the senior vet at the practice we go to recommended this based on Merlin's history, but the younger ones (not having discussed it with him) were skeptical about it, to put it mildly.

 

Lastly, and this part is solely my own speculation - I think it's possible that a dog could develop sensitivties to foods that he's eating during an active hookworm infestation, because hooks dig channels in the GI tract and provoke a strong acute inflammatory response. Merlin was eating chicken-based food all throughout his battle with hooks. Even after we got rid of the hooks, his poop wasn't actually good until we stopped feeding him chicken. Could be coincidence, but if you're still battling mild diarrhea after the hooks are gone, might think about switching proteins in the kibble.

 

Sorry this is so long, just wanted to share our experiences. Hope Zeke feels better soon!

 

-Michele

 

this may sound bad (and I'm sorry Merlin had to go through all that!) but I feel better since he vomited with hooks, too. I would rather it be that than IBD or worse.

 

the kibble he's getting is now lamb, but it was chicken. He's getting cooked beef and brown rice along with pumpkin (and the kibble). I think I'll see how he does on the Iam's for another couple days then if he's still bad, just do solely protein and starch (no kibble). Did you switch up his protein and starches during all that time or just stick to the same one each day? Also, Zeke was on Flagyl (don't know the dose but sure it's the same) 2 x day for 11 days and I just started to give the Pepcid (will try once a day but can increase if he vomits again maybe).

 

ETA: not making a joke but Zeke's original name was "Wizard" and yours is "Merlin" -- coinkidink?

Edited February 8, 2013 by RaineysMom

[greymatters]

this may sound bad (and I'm sorry Merlin had to go through all that!) but I feel better since he vomited with hooks, too. I would rather it be that than IBD or worse.

 

the kibble he's getting is now lamb, but it was chicken. He's getting cooked beef and brown rice along with pumpkin (and the kibble). I think I'll see how he does on the Iam's for another couple days then if he's still bad, just do solely protein and starch (no kibble). Did you switch up his protein and starches during all that time or just stick to the same one each day? Also, Zeke was on Flagyl (don't know the dose but sure it's the same) 2 x day for 11 days and I just started to give the Pepcid (will try once a day but can increase if he vomits again maybe).

For us, what has worked best whenever Merlin's had a flare-up is to go straight to rice and beef or turkey, with NO kibble at all until he firms up a bit. White rice is easier to digest than brown, and we overcook it till it's mushy. I did not change up proteins/starches - just picked one and stuck with it for several days to see if things got better. Our best results were with overcooked white rice and either boiled ground turkey or beef. Once he's doing OK on the rice and boiled meat, we would start adding in a bit of kibble, say about 1/2 cup at a time.

ETA: not making a joke but Zeke's original name was "Wizard" and yours is "Merlin" -- coinkidink?

Actually, Merlin came to us with his call name and he's originally a "wizard", too - his racing name is Heather's Wizard. If only our wizards could magically fix their tummmies!

[RaineysMom]

For us, what has worked best whenever Merlin's had a flare-up is to go straight to rice and beef or turkey, with NO kibble at all until he firms up a bit. White rice is easier to digest than brown, and we overcook it till it's mushy. I did not change up proteins/starches - just picked one and stuck with it for several days to see if things got better. Our best results were with overcooked white rice and either boiled ground turkey or beef. Once he's doing OK on the rice and boiled meat, we would start adding in a bit of kibble, say about 1/2 cup at a time.

 

Actually, Merlin came to us with his call name and he's originally a "wizard", too - his racing name is Heather's Wizard. If only our wizards could magically fix their tummmies!

 

several others said not to use brown rice (including Batmom, who I'd trust with their LIVES ) -- I bought it thinking it was more whole grain thus better fiber for D. I'll switch to the white (anyone need 4 2lb bags of brown rice??? .... looks like I'll be making a lot of soups with rice in it )

[greyhead]

and what kind of symptoms did Spencer present with with the IBD? I've heard a lot of folks say vets are more quick to lump intestinal issues as IBD when sometimes they really are not....

 

A long story but I'll be as brief as I can. From the time we adopted him, Spencer had loose poop (but not big-D), and in short order developed a gurgling tummy and a reluctance to eat breakfast until lunch time. Two fecals were done by two vets and both were negative. The primary vet pronounced that it could be IBD, techs said it was probably treats, and the secondary vet said it was probably emotional because "it usually is." It wasn't IBD at that time, and he hardly got any treats, but they didn't have hookworm in my state yet and everybody missed it. Nine months after adoption I took him to a third vet, in 2006, who did a fecal that found him "loaded with hookworm." We treated it with Panacur, a couple of rounds, but should have treated it more aggressively (now I know). He never really got rid of it.

 

In mid-2008 he had a dental, and the antibiotic afterward upset the balance of bugs in his intestines, he developed a nasty Clostridiumm infection that took forever to get diagnosed, and some months later we diagnosed the IBD by symptoms and ultrasound. By that time he had diarrhea, couldn't tolerate a new protein source for more than a couple weeks, lost much of his appetite, had intestinal malabsorption, the gurgling tummy was prominent (as was gas) lost 20 pounds, and was very weak. Doesn't sound like your dog, so I wouldn't worry about IBD.

 

I hadn't heard that one shouldn't feed brown rice. It may be generally less easy to digest than white rice. But I firmly believe in approaching each dog as an individual, and I do know of dogs who've done very poorly on white rice. Which is to say, you may have to experiment with these foods and see how Zeke does. Some dogs can't have any grains at all.

 

Mainly I caution folks to be very careful not to exhaust all the major protein sources (e.g., beef, buffalo, lamb, etc.) because if a dog does later develop IBD, they will have to be switched to a protein that they have never eaten before. We made that mistake when Spencer had the Clostridium infection and we didn't yet know it; we kept changing the protein source, hoping that would help. So when he did then develop IBD, there weren't many left that he could have.

[greymatters]

greyhead - I was hoping you would chime in here. I remember your Spencer's struggles and recalled your experiences when we were dealing with Merlin's issues. Your story is one of the reasons why I opted to treat Merlin's hookworm so aggressively, even though it took some work to get one of his vets on board.

[greyhead]

Yes, it's disconcerting when vets don't aggressively test for and treat worms, especially hooks since they are potentially permanent! We don't know for sure of a necessary connection, but there have been other greyhounds on this board who started with hookworm and ended up with IBD, even without an intervening episode of SIBO like Spencer's.

[krissn333]

We battled hooks here, Fritz had it the worst. And yes, he vomited

 

Just about the only thing he can eat is TOTW Pacific Stream. He can tolerate the occasional chicken drummy and he eats his peanut cookies.

 

I think we did 4 5-day courses of Panacur before it was all said and done. He's had a fairly sensitive tummy since then. Those hookworms really bite into their stomachs and intestines, and I'd imagine Fritz might have some scar tissue from it.

 

My other kids were treated as well and Ace had a few issues too

[Batmom]

Brown rice is fine for healthy innards or dog who needs more fiber but seems to go straight through those with any inflammation. My experience, anyways. Once you've got him all figured out and his innards settled, it'll be probably be great for crockpot stews etc.

[TwiggysMom]

I don't have any additional advice to what's been said already, but wanted to add my support!

 

Sending tummy-healing and hookworm-zapping thoughts out to Zeke!!

[TINMANPDX]

Not sure if this is helpful - we changed heart worm meds about five mos ago to Trifexis - it is supposed to help prevent and treat hookworm. I wonder if it would help in conjunction with the other therapy.

[Sambuca]

I didn't read all the replies, but I'll add some of Bu's experience. He had loose stools for over 8 months (no vomiting) and the vet had him on ID at one point and it made him worse. So did Iams low residue. WD worked too well and I had to get him off that quickly. He was on metamucil for a long time to help him. He was/is just sensitive to lots of foods and we finally found 1 that works for him. My message here is that the prescription stuff doesn't work for all dogs.

[krissn333]

Also wanted to add that when TOTW was hard to get, I bought a bag of Canidae grain free salmon food-it made Fritz sick. IDK if it was a bad bag or what, but no one else had a problem.

[RaineysMom]

Not sure if this is helpful - we changed heart worm meds about five mos ago to Trifexis - it is supposed to help prevent and treat hookworm. I wonder if it would help in conjunction with the other therapy.

 

I think all HW meds have some worm preventative but someone said they only help if it's a very light infestation, and Zeke's HUGE. But it will help once we (hopefully) finally get rid of them.

 

we're going to switch him to just beef and rice if he's not better by tomorrow (and the starts the 2nd round of Panacur tomorrow too). I don't want to jinx anything but he actually seemed to be doing better the past 2 days. Knock On Wood. Keeping fingers crossed.....

[galgrey]

Hope Zeke continues to do well.