It's Teddy's Turn For Ls. Any Other "young" Hounds Wi

[RobinM]

Damn. He's so young. I thought he may have the beginning of it but between the hurricane, losing Elsie to osteo (she also had LS) it was not something that had to be addressed. So, I brought him in yesterday and sure enough it's LS. We did the depo medro shot with adequin. The plan for Teddy as of right now depo shots every 6 weeks. Adequin for 4 weeks straight with glucosamine and see where we are after a month. We hope to be able to move the adequin to every other week. If we need to add acupuncture as we did with Elsie, we have someone great who comes to the house.

 

Teddy will be 9 in Febrary. Any other young dgs on GT with LS???

[schultzlc]

I am so sorry to read about Teddy's diagnosis.

 

I don't have any experience with LS, but will be sending good thoughts that Teddy responds well to his treatments.

[Guest zombrie]

Sorry to hear of this diagnosis. Mira is 9.5 (I think that is still youngish...) and we suspect she has LS. Our vet doesn't know much about it so he is looking into it...

[Guest lanielovesgreys]

Yes, Vivie is 9. So far just tramadol for us. She's like a new girl when she's on her pain meds. What made you decide to do the shot? My vet seems to know a lot about it, so I'm just doing what she tells me to do.

[NeylasMom]

Zuri is now 8 and has had early signs of LS since he was 7. I would talk to your vet about adding Gabapentin to the mix. I would have actually tried that before doing the depo injections personally. I would also add high doses of fish oil for general mobility and have a good ortho evaluate him to see if he's having other "compensation" issues. My ortho determined that Zuri had lost core strength that was probably contributing to the problem. We set up a PT consult to hopefully address that, at which point they discovered that he had a strained groin muscle from overcompensating. So we are doing PT to address the groin problem (hopefully done with that soon - we have another appt tomorrow, but he's been doing well these last 2 weeks) and then we will move on to hte core strengthening. He is on muscle relaxers (Robaxin) right now and those seem to help a lot, but my hope is that we can be medication free after the core strengthening, at least for a while.

 

I'm sorry to hear you had to let Elsie go. I heard you suspected she had osteo, but didn't know you had let her go.

[RobinM]

Yes, Vivie is 9. So far just tramadol for us. She's like a new girl when she's on her pain meds. What made you decide to do the shot? My vet seems to know a lot about it, so I'm just doing what she tells me to do.

 

Why? Else did GREYT with the shot, adequin every other week and every other week acupuncture. I am hoping the depo and adequin are enough because we are addressing this early.

[Guest lanielovesgreys]

Well, it's my understanding that it's a process. It starts with just pain and eventually progresses to numbness. I always thought you choose the treatment based on where your pup falls in the process. I'm new to it and it sounds like you've got a ton of experience. I asked about gabapentin, but my vet says it's on the long term plan, but not needed now, as Vivie isn't showing any signs of numbness.

 

Does the shot prevent LS from progressing? I thought it was like a freight train and all you can do is manage the symptoms. Again, not trying to say I'm right, just trying to absorb your experience.

[RobinM]

Zuri is now 8 and has had early signs of LS since he was 7. I would talk to your vet about adding Gabapentin to the mix. I would have actually tried that before doing the depo injections personally. I would also add high doses of fish oil for general mobility and have a good ortho evaluate him to see if he's having other "compensation" issues. My ortho determined that Zuri had lost core strength that was probably contributing to the problem. We set up a PT consult to hopefully address that, at which point they discovered that he had a strained groin muscle from overcompensating. So we are doing PT to address the groin problem (hopefully done with that soon - we have another appt tomorrow, but he's been doing well these last 2 weeks) and then we will move on to hte core strengthening. He is on muscle relaxers (Robaxin) right now and those seem to help a lot, but my hope is that we can be medication free after the core strengthening, at least for a while.

 

I'm sorry to hear you had to let Elsie go. I heard you suspected she had osteo, but didn't know you had let her go.

 

Yes, Elsie left very peacefully in my arms at home during the power outage (we had a front row seat to the hurricane) . I had known it as osteo. Didn't even need it "confirmed" 2 weeks later I received a call from group her son was placed though asking me to take him. There is a thread about it.

 

Anyway, Teddy has disk issues from the time he raced and has previously had an evaluation. This is the best plan for Teddy right now. We'll take it a few days at a time.

[RobinM]

From Suzanne Stacks page

 

 

Lumbra Sacral

 

Dr. Suzanne Stack

 

Overview

As our greyhounds age, quite a few of them, especially the males, become weak, wobbly, and/or painful in the rear end. Many of these are affected by lumbosacral stenosis (LS), a narrowing of the last part of the spinal canal, which causes compression of the nerve roots.

 

Diagnosis

Signs are rear end pain, lameness, weakness, "shuffling," knuckling over, foot dragging, and muscle wasting. Both urinary and fecal incontinence are possible and carry a worse prognosis. Greyhounds may even lose their appetite from the pain and "waste away."

The difficulty in diagnosing LS is twofold. Many veterinarians simply do not recognize the signs. LS looks neurologic, and technically, it is. But a rare and obscure neurological disease, it is not. Beware a diagnosis of "hip dysplasia" in a greyhound - greyhound hips are by and large excellent. The second problem is that unless your greyhound is "lucky" enough to have visible arthritis on lumbosacral x-rays, the only techniques to confirm LS are pretty high tech - CT, MRI, discography, etc.

 

Not only can LS be difficult to "nail down," the other problem is that oral medications such as Rimadyl, Etogesic, glucosamine, aspirin, prednisone, etc. do little for LS since it is not arthritis, but rather, "doggy sciatica" i.e., pinching of the nerve roots.. It presents a sad problem. The "cure" is referral spinal surgery to free up the trapped nerve roots, not something many owners will consider in a geriatric greyhound. Many if not most greyhounds simply get worse and worse until euthanasia becomes necessary.

 

Treatment

The good news is that there is a simple palpation technique to detect LS and a way to inject Depo-Medrol intralesionally to help it, similar to what is done in humans. It was taught to me by Dr. Mike Herron, a professor of small animal orthopedic surgery at Texas A & M for 32 years, owner of racing greyhounds, and all around "greyhound guru." You may want to clip this out for your vet to see should one of your greyhounds begin showing signs of LS.

This is an easy procedure that you do with the dog standing up, basically an intramuscular injection into the lumbosacral area. There is absolutely no danger of hitting the spinal cord or any important structures. The worst thing that can happen is that it doesn't help the dog.

******************

 

First, look at the diagram to see where the L-S joint lies in relation to the iliac crests so that you hit the right spot both with your thumbs for palpating and with the needle for injecting.

 

Put all your fingers on the ventral ridge of the greyhound's iliac crest. Put each thumb just medial to each iliac crest about halfway down its ridge. Your thumbs should be between the iliac crest and the vertebrae. Be sure to look at the diagram so you can see where the L-S joint lies in relation to the iliac crests. Try to "crack" (move) the L-S joint. If it hurts (or he falls to the ground!), chances are he has LS.

 

Draw up 20 mg of Depo-Medrol and using a 1" needle, inject half of this into each side. Go about halfway down the ridge of the iliac crest, go in (medially) 1", and inject just off the midline (this is where you put your thumbs to try to "crack" the L-S joint).

If the greyhound does not show improvement within 48 hours, the problem is something else. Repeat as needed as Depo-Medrol's effect wears off - usually every 3-6 months.

**************

A footnote worth mentioning for LS is Ultram, a human "combination" drug with both a narcotic-like and an antianxiety component. Used sometimes for bone cancer in dogs - another very painful condition - I have tried it with good results on two LS dogs when Depo-Medrol injections were not enough. A greyhound dose is 50 mg Ultram as needed for pain, given up to twice daily.

 

 

 

[Hubcitypam]

Rex was diagnosed by Mike Herron (mentioned in the article above) at the age of almost 5. Dr. Herron did the thumb test on a 9 year old female greyhound who didn't do anything. Rex collaped. Dr. Herron tested for LS because Rex was having trouble getting on and off the couch. The shots worked very well for him, but every six weeks REALLY seems like a lot. Dr. Stack says 3-6 month and Rex's lasted a bit long - 6-8 months. It was very evident when they were wearing off.

 

Buddy, who just turned 8, is starting to lose his back end and we are off to the vet this afternoon to have him looked at. Will let you know.

[Guest Yankeegreyhound]

Robin, who do you use for accupuncture? I've been thinking about it for Sara. She was doing amazing with the deramaxx but I can't get anymore. She's on something else and it's just not as good.

[carronstar]

Aquitaine sends kissies to her half brother. Hoping the shots and pills bring you lots of relief.

[Guest FawnFan]

Sorry to hear about Teddy's diagnosis. Hoping the treatment provides lots of relief so he's feeling better soon.

[RobinM]

Robin, who do you use for accupuncture? I've been thinking about it for Sara. She was doing amazing with the deramaxx but I can't get anymore. She's on something else and it's just not as good.

 

Her name is Winnie- she will come to the house. depending on where she has to drive to will determine the price. She knows her stuff. She's helped with other GT dogs too. Email me if you are interested rlm410@optonline.met

[Chicocat]

Robin, in addition to the acupuncture you might want to investigate chiropractic treatments - they have been very successful in helping LS. Ask Shelley Lake about it on Facebook - her boy Felter has LS.

[Hubcitypam]

Buddy is back from the vet. I explained his struggling to get up, inability to get in the car, leg tremors etc. and asked if he wanted to do the thumb test. He said no and he'd rather just try the depo shot and sit back a few days and see if it helped before doing a referral to the speciality clinic. He agrees with Dr. Stack no harm in trying a $39 shot first.

[Guest crazy4greys]

I suspect my boy Tucker had the start of LS before he passed away. His back feet would knuckle under at times for a few months and his last day with us, he was walking on the top of his back feet. It was too late for us to do anything. He was 9.5 yrs. old.

 

 

My other boy Phoenix had LS at age 10. He had chiropractic treatments and Adequin injections until the end, that was back in 2005

 

I hope things go well for Teddy.

[RobinM]

Robin, in addition to the acupuncture you might want to investigate chiropractic treatments - they have been very successful in helping LS. Ask Shelley Lake about it on Facebook - her boy Felter has LS.

 

Thanks. I will ask. Right now we don't need do or acupuncture so I won't! He had his first shots yesterday and seems much more limber today.

 

 

Buddy is back from the vet. I explained his struggling to get up, inability to get in the car, leg tremors etc. and asked if he wanted to do the thumb test. He said no and he'd rather just try the depo shot and sit back a few days and see if it helped before doing a referral to the speciality clinic. He agrees with Dr. Stack no harm in trying a $39 shot first.

 

Hope it helps.

[GeorgeofNE]

George is now 10, but he was diagnosed a few years ago.

 

Vets around here will not inject steroids. We use gabapentin and Rimadyl, and tramadol if needed. Regular gentle exercise, keep his weight down, his muscle tone up.

[Hubcitypam]

Vets around here will not inject steroids.

That is always so interesting to me. Rex got his at 3 different vets, Dr. Herron, Dr. Ellis who is the primary vet for GALT (and certainly knows greyhounds) and my own then VCA vet. Never an issue at all. Absolutely no problems with my current vet who is one of the few in Dallas with an Ohio State Vet School diploma on the wall. I'd say it's regional, but Robin has someone in NY with no objections. I know MA and NY aren't all that close, but in Texas terms they are practically neighbors.

 

I know that when Rex was diagnosed Suzanne told me if a vet balked to find an older one as some vet schools didn't favor injectable steriods as of late. When Buddy for his well baby visit upon arrival here I knew odds were good that as big as he was LS was possible in our future and asked Dr. J about depo medrol if the time came (which is now - a year later). He said "no problem" and I almost fainted. I said "Wait, you're a young vet and you're supposed to hate Depo injections!" He replied that didn't I remember that his Dad was also a vet? He said that he grew up watching his Dad work and what he saw over the years outweighed a lecture in vet school and several of his classmates also had no objection to Depo. He really did say that - I am not making it up.

 

My niece who is an R.N. gets depo shots in her knees every 4 months - says it beats using a boatload of pain pills.

[RobinM]

George is now 10, but he was diagnosed a few years ago.

 

Vets around here will not inject steroids. We use gabapentin and Rimadyl, and tramadol if needed. Regular gentle exercise, keep his weight down, his muscle tone up.

 

Elsie had rear end weakness from the time she was 11.5. At that time i started acupunture. When it progressed, iit was diagnosed as LS. At that point she was 12.5 and started on depo. And adequin as well and it made such a difference. Up until October she was still running around the backyard and playing hide ad seek with me. As I write this, I can't believe she's not here. As my vet says, either the depo works or doesn't.

 

(Steroids saved my Beaus life with his IBD)

[GeorgeofNE]

As my vet says, either the depo works or doesn't.

 

 

Sadly, the shots CANNOT actual "work." For some dogs, they do relieve some of the symptoms. But all you have to do is ask a neurologist (and I have) about the effectiveness of injecting steroids NEXT TO the spine for stenosis. All they can do is relief the inflammation around the spine. But if the problems a particular dog are having are from the compression of the nerves inside the spine (which is what LS is), the shots do nothing. And the vets I asked about it believe that the potential for long term negative side effects outweigh the the value of any potential temporary relief.

 

The specialist I went to was familiar with the shots but called the theory "bad science."

 

Fortunately, George is doing well on the protocol I was given or I would probably be upset that no one would let us try it!

 

And if I have to, I was told there is an old guy vet in the area that MIGHT be willing to do them.

[Hubcitypam]

But all you have to do is ask a neurologist (and I have) about the effectiveness of injecting steroids NEXT TO the spine for stenosis.

Rex's neurologist here - http://dfwvetsurgeons.com/ had no problem with his having depo shots.

[Batmom]

As my vet says, either the depo works or doesn't.

Sadly, the shots CANNOT actual "work." For some dogs, they do relieve some of the symptoms.

 

Relieving symptoms sure sounds like the definition of working to me.

 

the effectiveness of injecting steroids NEXT TO the spine for stenosis. All they can do is relief the inflammation around the spine.

 

If there is inflammation around the spine and that inflammation is causing nerve compression, then relieving the inflammation would have the effect of relieving compression of the nerves.

 

But if the problems a particular dog are having are from the compression of the nerves inside the spine (which is what LS is), the shots do nothing.

 

It depends on what's compressing the nerves. If some part of the compression is due to inflammation, then steroid shots in that area are likely to help. If the dog has a bone spur or ruptured disk impinging on the nerve canal, then you would be less likely to see a benefit.

 

And the vets I asked about it believe that the potential for long term negative side effects outweigh the the value of any potential temporary relief.

 

I would be interested in hearing what the negative effects are thought to be, especially versus permanently impaired mobility and constant pain, and versus the side effects of longterm oral anti-inflammatory use. This is an exceptionally safe procedure, with little potential for either short or longterm negative side effects. For a dog with significant pain and impairment, I can't imagine not giving it a try.

[Guest blueberri]

But all you have to do is ask a neurologist (and I have) about the effectiveness of injecting steroids NEXT TO the spine for stenosis. All they can do is relief the inflammation around the spine. But if the problems a particular dog are having are from the compression of the nerves inside the spine (which is what LS is), the shots do nothing. And the vets I asked about it believe that the potential for long term negative side effects outweigh the the value of any potential temporary relief.

Curious. To compare, I had steroid injections into each wrist, next to the (?)medial nerve for relief of carpal tunnel symptoms. I think the fact I was able to resume driving, handwriting, picking up objects etc, and have been able to for 18+ months now, is supportive of the literature that shows clear symptom relief by such treatments. Relatable, as carpal tunnel is compression of the nerves inside a ligament that is not responsive to anti-inflammatories etc as theoretically the constriction is irreversible. And yet... symptom relief!

 

oh, and hi... it looks like my 4yo boy Sparky has LS. Official diagnosis pending... but the symptoms stack up.